Bumbleberry Pie

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

It’s hard to cut one of the colours to a splash. Serra’s and prismatic are white, ponder and our engines are blue, and the best targets are sarcomancy and trial. The most reasonable manabase would be WBx but cutting ponder is probably not defensible.

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That was how I arrived at the WBu version above.

White and black are both core to the deck. Blue is only needed for the 3 cmc engines. So blue could be made into a splash if you're willing to let go of Xerox (which forces you to strain blue count to support FoW and fetch differently to support cantrips). Cutting the blue stuff loses consistency and FoW protection, but you gain smoother mana and redundancy (4-ofs in 60 card build). That means seeing Sanctum and Estrid more often to really profit off the deck's unique advantages. Multiple Paladin Class and discard are then necessary to protect you from disruption, without Forces in the deck.

It's not quite a bad BW aggro deck. It looks like that against combo, but against fair creatures you still have the midrange plan of T2 value enchantment -> T3 Estrid/Aminatou -> snowball out of control. Trial of Ambition could replace some other slots.

I don't know if it's better than what you already have, but it is an option.

Edit: What about SB Doomwake Giant? It's slow but answers token spam. Might be worse than just playing Detention Sphere.

Ok here is a draft for a WBu build cutting ponder for dragon and cling. Not quite as good cards but they play better into the Serra’s sanctum theme. I am still supporting fow and brainstorm though as they require turn 1 U less. This affords us a few more basics.

Teferi to dsphere as per above.


3 Legion’s Landing
4 Sarcomancy
3 Paladin Class

3 Life of Toshiro Umezawa
4 Trial of Ambition
4 Omen of the sea

2 Detention Sphere
4 Estrid’s Invocation
3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

4 Brainstorm
2 Cling to Dust
2 Timeless Dragon
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Force of Negation

4 Serra’s Sanctum
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Flats
4 Vista
4 Snow Swamp
1 Snow Island
2 Snow Plains

Once you're in WBu, is Omen of the Sea (splash color) better than Hidden Stockpile (card selection + bodies in WB), Enlightened Tutor (card selection in W), or Warlock Class (card selection in B)?

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Originally Posted by FTW

Once you're in WBu, is Omen of the Sea (splash color) better than Hidden Stockpile (card selection + bodies in WB), Enlightened Tutor (card selection in W), or Warlock Class (card selection in B)?

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I think omen is necessary to support fow without running too many 3 drops. Having a 2 drop that is relevant when removal is not is also good for the curve.

What about Lithoform Blight? That's a black cantrip. Does "loses all abilities and types" happen at a lower layer than "becomes Island", so that Thespian's Stage would copy something with no abilities?

An alternative package I have thought of is a self-mill/zombies engine.


Warlock Class
The Modern Age
Tymaret Calls the Dead

Master of Death
Cabal Therapy
Narfi, Betrayer King

This lets you support blue without needing blue pips.

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Originally Posted by Fox

iirc cards like Stage and Vesuva are "hard" copies, while Spreading Seas would turn Field into a "soft" copy. So if you have a Stage target a "hard" copied Vesuva as Island, your Stage becomes a "hard" copy of Island...but if you have a Stage target a "soft" copied Field of the Dead as Island (due to Spreading Seas), you get a fully operational Stage as Field through Spreading Seas. This makes a card like Spreading Seas a really bad answer, even when you're not getting blown out by FoV. The other issue here is putting down a lot of the prison on cmc 2 vs Blast Zone. Assuming the rules work like this still, Seas remains a poor answer to Depths.

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This hard/soft distinction has no real basis in the rules at all. How this works is because copy effects apply in layer 1 before any other modifications, so the only attributes that get copied are the printed values of the card (so if you copy a Field with spreading seas on it you just get a unmodified Field of the Dead, because spreading seas modifies Field in a later layer), plus how they are modified by any other copy effects (so if Stage copies Vesuva which originally copied a mountain, then your Stage becomes a Mountain, not a "blank" Vesuva)

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What about Lithoform Blight? That's a black cantrip. Does "loses all abilities and types" happen at a lower layer than "becomes Island", so that Thespian's Stage would copy something with no abilities?

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The only relevant thing is that both of them happen at a later layer than layer 1, so "becomes copy of target permanent" will ignore both Seas/Blight and give you an unmodified copy of the original card

Generally I think that Detention Sphere is probably the best anti-field card. Virulent Plague may be okay too (SB) but it has far less utility in other matchups and like you have identified it's a nonbo here when you're trying to win with your own tokens.

Displacer Kitten
3U
Creature - Cat Beast
Avoidance - Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, exile up to one target nonland permanent you control, then return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
"Isn't she the cutest thing you've almost seen?"
- Doen, purveyor of exotic pets

This could let us go away from the token stuff into a combo control shell.

Draws our deck with baubles and 3feri.

Still a very strong value engine with stuff like omen of the sea

Aminatou plus serras sanctum lets you generate mana and storm off.

Our kill condition can be Oath of Kaya so you don’t need any bad cards (other than the baubles and maybe a few petals)

The “exploding kittens” shell would be:


Part A (blink)
4 Kitten

Part B (permanents to flicker)
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Spirited Companion

Part C (free artifacts or W enchantments)
4 Mishra’s Bauble
3 Lotus Petal
4 Curse of Silence
4 Paladin Class
4 Swift Reconfiguration

Part D (Wincon)
3 Oath of Kaya


The argument to play this over say Aluren would be that perhaps all the pieces are better played fairly/by themselves. And your combo pieces are also protection.

I don't see the reason to make your enabler cost 4 mana and die to any spot removal when these weren't problems before. This is EDH tech. In legacy it seems win-more when it works, lose-more otherwise.

It was never necessary to be token-blink. KombatKiwi's version showed Estrid+Aminatou works blinking value control enchantments instead. I thought tokens was something you wanted to do. If you don't want tokens, you don't need Kitten either. Oath is playable either way.

5 Snow Covered Island
2 Snow Covered Plains
1 Snow Covered Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
2 Force of Negation
2 Sevinne's Reclamation

4 Omen of the Sea
4 Estrids Invocation
4 Spreading Seas
2 On Thin Ice
1 Court of Cunning
1 History of Benalia

SB
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Deafening Silence
1 Soul Guide Lantern
1 Detention Sphere / Banishment
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Flux
1 Dovin's Acuity (???)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
5? Pyroblast

I realised that moving to snow lands and playing 2x thin ice in the "flex removal slot" probably solves a lot of issues

New card Banishment instead of D Sphere in sb is debateable (it's 3W detention sphere with flash). Costing 1 more is not a huge deal in terms of curve reasons and having flash and not being pyroblastable is relevant, but you can't bring it back with Sevinnes if they kill it. You could also split that with Thin Ice maindeck maybe if you wanted the extra SB slot

Thinking about whether Dovins Acuity makes sense in SB or whether it should just be like a hard defense card like Solitary Confinement or COP red or something. Also wondering about SB humility now that I cut it from the maindeck

For a controlling build we could also add

Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward
4W
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior
When Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward enters the battlefield, exile any number of other nonland permanents you control until Abdel Adrian leaves the battlefield. Create a 1/1 white Soldier creature token for each permanent exiled this way.

Choose a Background. (You can have a Background as a second commander.)

People are talking about how he is comboes with animate dead, but he also goes infinite with a oring and another oring or aminatou, as well as being a decent value play.

The other thing I haven’t tried is Restoration of Eijango. If the heart of the deck is serras sanctum something that creates tokens like history but also “sevinnes” back my land could be strong. I haven’t tried it previously because fitting in plains on top of serras is difficult.

The Restoration of Eiganjo
{2}{W}
Enchantment — Saga
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter.)
I — Search your library for a basic Plains card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.
II — You may discard a card. When you do, return target permanent card with mana value 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
III — Exile this Saga, then return it to the battlefield transformed under your control.
Architect of Restoration
Color Indicator: White Enchantment Creature — Fox Monk
Vigilance
Whenever Architect of Restoration attacks or blocks, create a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.
“A visionary looks at rubble and sees not only what was, but also what could be.”
—Onyx-Eye, architect of Eiganjo
3/4

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

The other thing I haven’t tried is Restoration of Eijango. If the heart of the deck is serras sanctum something that creates tokens like history but also “sevinnes” back my land could be strong. I haven’t tried it previously because fitting in plains on top of serras is difficult.

The Restoration of Eiganjo
{2}{W}
Enchantment — Saga
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter.)
I — Search your library for a basic Plains card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.
II — You may discard a card. When you do, return target permanent card with mana value 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
III — Exile this Saga, then return it to the battlefield transformed under your control.
Architect of Restoration
Color Indicator: White Enchantment Creature — Fox Monk
Vigilance
Whenever Architect of Restoration attacks or blocks, create a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.
“A visionary looks at rubble and sees not only what was, but also what could be.”
—Onyx-Eye, architect of Eiganjo
3/4

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I thought about this but I think the deck it goes in is something WGx
Even if you decide that replenish is bad/wrong (reasonable), playing Serras Sanc in deck without Growth/Sprawl seems iffy to me and the Eiganjo card seems really nice with Sterling Grove (return permanent with mana 2 or less [this can also be argothian actually], gives the enchantment creature shroud)

With the UWR build I think that actually the manacurve is not so pressed and making things island isn't so crucial (with thin ice in the deck you can flicker estrid on that to mop up constructs) that the deck can afford to play Dovin's Acuity main over some spreading seas, which is generally a better grindy card assuming you have time to use it and it also solves the lifegain problem

So with the list above
Main:
-2 Spreading Seas
+2 Dovin's Acuity

SB:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Deafening Silence
1 Soul Guide Lantern
1 Detention Sphere / Banishment
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Humility
5? Pyroblast / 4+1 Flex slot

edit:bombed fnm with that list, moving forward im just going to netdeck some stock jeskai from the challenge results

Overall I'm not too unhappy with how the idea turned out as a brew (and I think the list I settled on with the 2 Sea 2 Thin Ice 2 Acuity seems good/fine) it's just that the amount of effort needed isn't quite worth the in-game payoff (compare Dressdown -> Narset vs Omen of the Sea -> Invocation for example). Definitely worth keeping Invocation in mind for the future, but it's also difficult to imagine the type of printable 1-2 mana enchantment that's so strong to make the combo worth it. Maybe a Yorion build is also possible.

Ok I played a few 3-2 & 2-3 leagues. The highs of the deck are awesome but the deck does have issues functioning sometimes.

Building the idea of the deck back from the ground up:

• Serra’s Sanctum + Yorion + Force of Will is the core niche of the deck. Serra’s gives the mana to play Yorion in a timely fashion. Yorion provides CA or a blue card for FoW. FoW gives time for the extra sanctum mana to matter. That is the “vintage level” thing this deck does; free counters plus free fast mana gives you such a huge “tempo” advantage over the opponent. There is a reason Tolarian Academy is banned.
• Trial into blink engine is the other core of the deck. Putting an abyss into play on t2 is quite strong against fair creature decks and differentiates the deck from the normal control piles of 3 removal into CA or enchatress’s less interactive style.
• Should the deck be Esper? Right now what esper offers 2 sets of things:
• Discard from Black and the best Hate from White is an extremely good anti-combo sideboard. Thiscomplements Yorion piles inherently having better fair matchups and worse unfair ones. I have been using this to good effect.
• Teferi plus strix are the best generic control cards in these colours and have good synergy. They are also extremely powerful with aminatou. I haven’t been using these since they conflict with serras sanctum and Estrids.
• Some of the interesting enchantments are legendary (oath of Kaya for killing and protecting PWs, legions landing for more consistent token protection) or are hard to copy (estrids will only copy the weak creature side of flip sagas)

Although I meant for this deck to be an Estrids Invocation deck, I think either it needs to go or we would need to switch to another colour. Estrids is great when it works, but prevents us from using some of the best cards in our colours and does nothing on an empty board.

If FoW + Yorion + Sanctum is the core, you still want high enchantment count and ETB triggers, so Estrid + Aminatou + Teferi fits well. The combo with Trial of Ambition is very strong, too.

How good is the rest of the deck though? Is the token engine the weakest part? What if you tilt towards control? Then you can play Supreme Verdict to beat decks that out-token you, and you don't have to play awful cards like Legion's Landing. Though Sanctum probably needs to be a 3-of if you cut back on the 1-mana enchantments.

For a win condition, Shark Typhoon is a great mana sink at both modes.


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Lands: 29
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Serra's Sanctum

//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Cling to Dust
3 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Enchantments: 21
4 Curse of Silence
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
4 Estrid's Invocation
1 Detention Sphere
1 Oath of Kaya
1 Court of Cunning
2 Shark Typhoon


Curse of Silence could fill a pseudo-"discard" slot against combo while playing well with your enchantment game plan. It does require being good at Cabal Therapy. But if you guess poorly you can at least reset it with Aminatou or pile up with Estrid's (sacrifice is optional).

Dress Down could also be good here as a cantripping blue enchantment that hates on a lot of popular Legacy interactions.

Maybe you can make room for 1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity in the manabase.

1-2 Timeless Dragon seems good for mana stability and threats and white mana sinks, but it fights for space with non-enchantment cards (Teferi? Cling?).

Estrids obviously make sense in the deck since that was why the deck was built. But you can only have so many 3 drops & 3feri has a better floor. Oath (removal that isn’t dead against control or combo) & strix (best interactive blue etb) are the two targets I really wanted that aren’t really justifiable with 4x Estrids.

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Originally Posted by FTW

1-2 Timeless Dragon seems good for mana stability and threats and white mana sinks, but it fights for space with non-enchantment cards (Teferi? Cling?).

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It was good but I think strix is better if the manabase accommodates it. Timeless dragon stretches the manabase in the other direction as well. A lot of plains or white duals in a deck that also is playing 4 sanctum -> uncastable B or U cards.

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Originally Posted by FTW

How good is the rest of the deck though? Is the token engine the weakest part? What if you tilt towards control? Then you can play Supreme Verdict to beat decks that out-token you, and you don't have to play awful cards like Legion's Landing. Though Sanctum probably needs to be a 3-of if you cut back on the 1-mana enchantments.

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A lifelink 1/1 is bit worse than a 2/2. But the legendary rule was the biggest issue imo which doesn’t effect 3feri/aminatou. Life of Umezawa also improves the stock of the vampires compared to older builds. The tokens aren’t amazing but I need 1 cmc enchantments with good ETBs for Serra’s sanctum. The list is otherwise pretty short (basically just Warlock Class, to stretch the definition of good to barely playable). With 4 1 cmc enchantments, non of which are non-white, you are going to have a ton of troubled developing your mana even if with 3 sanctums.

Summary of changes, mostly focused on improving the decks floor:

4 Estrid’s -> 4 3 feri. Obviously improves the floor at the cost of a lower ceiling. He also helps vs blue combo.

Omen and plow -> strix. With strix and 3feri marit lage is less of an issue. Retooled the manabase to have the proper 26 UB sources

2 & 3 cmc token producers -> oath and legions landing. Legendary enchantments we can play now.


2 Legion’s Landing
4 Sarcomancy
3 Paladin Class
1 Warlock Class

3 Life of Tohsiro Umezawa
4 Trial of Ambition
4 Omen of the sea

2 Oath of Kaya
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Force of Will
3 Force of Negation

3 Serra’s Sanctum
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Delta
4 Strand
4 Flats
3 Vista
3 Snow Swamp
3 Snow Island
1 Snow Plains

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

The tokens aren’t amazing but I need 1 cmc enchantments with good ETBs for Serra’s sanctum. The list is otherwise pretty short (basically just Warlock Class, to stretch the definition of good to barely playable). With 4 1 cmc enchantments, non of which are non-white, you are going to have a ton of troubled developing your mana even if with 3 sanctums.

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Do you need to go aggro-Sanctum though? (curve out T1 enchant T2 enchant T3 Sanctum taps for WW)

If this is a Yorion control deck, what's wrong with Sanctum only taking over on turns 5+? Why do you need to mana sink early? If you play more interactive control cards, you can slow down the game. Then you can cash in Sanctum for Yorion / Shark Typhoon without needing to run cards that are bad if Sanctum gets disrupted. Maybe that means only 2 Sanctum then.

If you want to play aggro-Sanctum ramp (ramp with Sanctum as fast as possible), then the deck probably wants green: Utopia Sprawl/Abundant Growth/Exploration/Wild Growth/Oath of Nissa. Those are the best 1-mana enchantments if your goal is to develop mana quickly.

Otherwise the 1-mana cards don't really help ramp or control. They make a mediocre board presence until an engine comes online and it's underwhelming if you never draw Sanctum in the 80-cards. Once you cut Estrid, there's even less payoff for the token makers.

Another possible package is Soothsaying + Counterbalance. Soothsaying comes down turn 1 from Island, then provides a mana sink and soft-lock with Sanctum mana. Both pitch to Force. CB plays well with Omen too. If you're cutting Estrid then you're not constrained to ETB effects.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Do you need to go aggro-Sanctum though? (curve out T1 enchant T2 enchant T3 Sanctum taps for WW) .

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I agree this isn’t enchantress. We don’t need it to make WW on t3. We do need it to make at least W by t3, preferably t2 though. I am not sure the correct amount but I did cut down from 12-16 1 drops to only 10.

In a list like yours where it isn’t reliably making mana we either: are playing a control deck with the equivalent of only 19 lands and 6 good cantrips, or you need to run the equivalent of only 36 non-lands. I don’t think control can afford 3 cards that are completely dead until t4 and can’t be pitched to fow.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Otherwise the 1-mana cards don't really help ramp or control. They make a mediocre board presence until an engine comes online and it's underwhelming if you never draw Sanctum in the 80-cards. Once you cut Estrid, there's even less payoff for the token makers.

Another possible package is Soothsaying + Counterbalance. Soothsaying comes down turn 1 from Island, then provides a mana sink and soft-lock with Sanctum mana. Both pitch to Force. CB plays well with Omen too. If you're cutting Estrid then you're not constrained to ETB effects

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The idea is that Paladin Class and Life of Umezawa are cards that are primarily interaction, but also make the bodies relevant even without an engine. That may be Ill-founded however

Soothsaying/aminatou counterbalance is another approach. The miracles approach probably wants more miracles and less trial/strix though, which were the reasons we are in black.

Re control playing cards dead until turn 4: there are many Yorion piles playing things like Aluren, Primeval Titan, Field of the Dead, Wandering Emperor, Mystic Sanctuary. In an 80-card deck with cantrips the probability of getting flooded with lategame tools early is low. Cutting down to 2 Sanctum may help.

With multiple 2-mana enchantments it's not really "dead" on turn 3. It taps for W like a regular land, casting the 3-mana plays. Then it starts ramping on turn 4 or later. If you play control with Soothsaying then there are even more cheap enablers.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Soothsaying/aminatou counterbalance is another approach. The miracles approach probably wants more miracles and less trial/strix though, which were the reasons we are in black.

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1-2 Terminus may be enough without cutting Trial/Strix. Miracles has run Coatl and Strix before, especially in 80-card. You aren't forced into 3-4x Terminus if the rest of the deck already handles creatures well.

This seems very interesting for the full control builds.

Temporary Lockdown / 1WW
Enchantment
When Temporary Lockdown enters the battlefield, exile each nonland permanent with mana value 2 or less until Temporary lockdown leaves the battlefield.

https://mythicspoiler.com/dmu/cards/...ylockdown.html

It is better against tokens than out of time, and doesn’t require red like hitsegu consumes all. Eating up your own trials and omens punishes people for removing it.

The “snapcaster” saga also seems very useful for a controlling build. The first chapter is nice with discard and the third chapter rebuying endings helps a ton with killing planeswalkers. Getting to skip ahead to the mill part makes it actually quite annoying for doomsday.


Founding the Third Path
1U
Enchantment - Saga
Read ahead (Choose a chapter and start with that many lore counters. Add one after your draw step. Skipped chapters don't trigger. Sacrifice after III.)

I - You may cast an instant or sorcery spell with mana value 1 or 2 from your hand without paying its mana cost.

II - Target player mills four cards.

III - Exile target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard. Copy it. You may cast the copy.

This would be where I start with the control build.


4 Founding the Third Path
4 Trial of Ambition
3 Omen of the sea
3 Court of Grace

3 Temporal Isolation
4 Estrid’s Invocation
3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation

2 Serra’s Sanctum
1 Hall of Heliod
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Delta
4 Strand
3 Flats
4 Vista
1 Snow Swamp
3 Snow Island
2 Snow Plains


It has a nice blue count, oodles of removal, and a few different wincons. The primary plan is destroy everything and then play a court. Sanctum gets a bit worse with less enchantments but is still reasonably powerful. Third path recurs discard and temporal isolation flickers everything when removal is bad.

Founding looks like a boost for the control version, especially if you don't build around Counterbalance. Now you still have 2 good blue enchantments to curve into Estrid for those games where you don't want a Trial effect.

The backup "Snapcaster mode" is nice (start at Chapter 3). Sometimes it will also freecast a spell from hand. But that also means you need enough spells to gain value, so that it isn't a blank. Note that blinking chapters 1-2 over and over doesn't generate any card advantage. Freecasting Prismatic Ending also fails. You probably need 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder to gain velocity from those freecasts. The 4th Omen is probably also better than the 4th Founding, because Founding is conditional value (the floor is card negative) while Omen always digs.

Why Temporal Isolation? You have oodles of 1-for-1 removal, but the same problem as before vs go-wide decks. Supreme Verdict seems good. You don't need cute stuff like Out of Time if you're playing without tokens. Verdict has no drawback and is uncounterable.

Keeping the same manabase, I would build it in this direction:

//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Lands: 27
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strands
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
3 Thoughtseize
2 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

//Enchantments: 18
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
3 Founding the Third Path
4 Estrid's Invocation
2 Temporary Lockdown
1 Court of Grace

Total = 77 cards

That still has space for 3 more cards. Those slots could be more mana (1 Hall of Storm Giants seems strong late game with sanctum mana). Or the 4th Thoughtseize, more Court of Grace, Teferi, Time Raveler, Baleful Strix, or maybe 1 Sevinne's Reclamation (returns Sanctum and all your PWs, on top of the enchantments). Dress Down seems good for the SB, maybe even 1 main.

Edit: How does your SB mapping usually work? Verdict seems important, but then you also have 10 slots to bring out vs creatureless combo (4 Trial 4 StP 2 Verdict).

Temporal isolation was supposed to be temporary lockdown. It isn’t uncounterable, but hitting non-lands is huge vs stuff like lands, and hitting our own omens and trials raise the floor considerably.

Your comment on omen vs third path is good.

I really wanted to fit in sevinnes due to the mill and serras synergy, but I was worried it would leave us reasonably likely to just lose to surgical on court and ran Kaya instead. What would you cut?

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Temporal isolation was supposed to be temporary lockdown. It isn’t uncounterable, but hitting non-lands is huge vs stuff like lands, and hitting our own omens and trials raise the floor considerably.

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Oh, ok. That makes more sense. I still think a split with Verdict is better. Verdict is uncounterable, permanent, and will hit bigger creatures. Lockdown misses a lot and can be uncounterably removed (Boseiju, Decay, Cavern/Vial). Against Vial Aggro, giving them their ETB effects back isn't ideal either.

Maybe you want 2 Lockdown 1 Verdict, with a 2nd Verdict in the SB?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I really wanted to fit in sevinnes due to the mill and serras synergy, but I was worried it would leave us reasonably likely to just lose to surgical on court and ran Kaya instead. What would you cut?

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You don't need to cut? The list you had above is under 80 cards. The list I posted has room for 3 more too.

This is what I get for posting lists stream of consciousness.
It is missing 4 ponder, which is one of the best cards in legacy and also gives a better sorcery density for third path. Based on your version I guess sevinnes is better than the 3rd court?

Pitches to fow and uncounterable is a consideration for sure. With 4 trial 4 plow do I really need to be scared of large creatures? Giving stuff back is bad but so is not hitting vial/kaldra/retrofitter/mox diamond/wish claw talisman

I haven't played the control versions in a very long time. I could keep the etutor package or focus on generally applicable 2 cmc spells. Doubling up on Fracture and hymn to tourach seems quite strong and gives you lots of ins to pair with the removal

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

This is what I get for posting lists stream of consciousness.
It is missing 4 ponder, which is one of the best cards in legacy and also gives a better sorcery density for third path.

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That makes much more sense. I did not understand 0 Ponder in 80-card 3-color control, or playing Third Path without Ponder. So the first tweaks I made were cutting top end to add 4 Ponder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Based on your version I guess sevinnes is better than the 3rd court?

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I think so. 3x Court is overkill. You don't want 2 copies - if the first 1 is working you're already winning, and if it's not then the 2nd one is bad too (or you already have tech to flicker/copy it). Sevinne's has so many good targets in your deck: every single one of your engine cards and value cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Pitches to fow and uncounterable is a consideration for sure. With 4 trial 4 plow do I really need to be scared of large creatures? Giving stuff back is bad but so is not hitting vial/kaldra/retrofitter/mox diamond/wish claw talisman

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True, maybe you have enough answers for big creatures.

I would just worry about relying on 3x Lockdown as your only sweeper vs opponents who will already board in all their enchantment kill against your deck. Opponent's EOT Boseiju, Who Endures/Force of Vigor/Wear // Tear/Abrupt Decay/Chain of Vapor/Petty Theft will catch you by surprise suddenly resetting their board. Relying on one artifact/enchantment to hold off their board is dangerous for control in this meta (for the same reason, Moat/Bridge/Energy Field are less reliable right now). Opponents could also profit off triggers when their permanents return: Stoneforge, Charming Prince, Baleful Strix, Abundant Growth, Elvish Visionary, etc. Or they may run multiple creatures over 2 mana (Goblins, D&T, Maverick).

Maybe Lockdown is still best main but it would be good to have some other answer in the SB.

ETutor is another way you could have access to strong tools (Lockdown, Court) while only running 1 copy. Plus ETutor improves your access to SB cards.

I like the 2 cmc spells in the sideboard idea. It’s likely for the opponent to bring in enchantment removal which really hurts vs e-tutor. Third path into hymn is strong but in g1s we can’t afford to fetch BB. I put 2 verdicts in the sideboard then. The etutor plan also has anti-synergy with lockdown. Other sideboard instants added were fracture and surgical.

Ending was trimmed for IoK since it’s role is covered by lockdown/Kaya somewhat. Also, we had too much removal main to have more removal like verdict in the sideboard. I shifted a few things around to better support sevinnes.


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Sideboard: 14
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Fracture
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Back to Basics
2 Supreme Verdict

//Lands: 27
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strands
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Spells: 28
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Force of Negation
2 Sevinne’s Reclamation

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

//Enchantments: 20
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
3 Founding the Third Path
4 Estrid’s Invocation
3 Temporary Lockdown
2 Court of Grace

ThrabenU played a version of this deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCoku6sa5NY


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
2 Preordain
3 Terminus

//Artifacts: 4
4 Staff of the Storyteller

//Creatures: 4
4 Baleful Strix

//Enchantments: 12
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
2 Court of Grace
2 Moat

//Planeswalkers: 6
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Lands: 27
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Raffine's Tower
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard: 14
2 Force of Negation
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Energy Flux
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Moat


Staff of the Storyteller could be a big boost to this archetype. It blinks well.

I don't love the manabase. Prismatic Vista seems important to get basics. Timeless Dragon could help fix WW too.

Maindeck Moat also seems bad when some of the most threatening creatures in the format are: DRC, Murktide, Marit Lage, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Atraxa, Delver, Brazen Borrower.... is there anything big that doesn't fly?
Probably need to cut 2 Moat 2 Preordain for 4 Thoughtseize to have enough game against noncreature decks.

I think I would play it like this -->


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
3 Terminus

//Creatures: 4
4 Baleful Strix

//Artifacts: 4
4 Staff of the Storyteller

//Enchantments: 10
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
2 Court of Grace

//Planeswalkers: 6
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Lands: 27
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Raffine's Tower
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard: 14
2 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Energy Flux
2 Fracture
2 Rest in Peace
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Meddling Mage

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Originally Posted by FTW

Maindeck Moat also seems bad when some of the most threatening creatures in the format are: DRC, Murktide, Marit Lage, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Atraxa, Delver, Brazen Borrower.... is there anything big that doesn't fly?

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Some. Urza's Saga tokens, Uro, Kappa Cannoneer, Hogaak, Goblins/Goblin tokens, Sheoldred, Initiative creatures, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Death's Shadow. I'd say Moat is strong against a fair amount of the meta, but there are a lot of common matchups that it does nothing against. I feel like it is a boom or bust card, as it looks from our lists like some decks only run fliers and other decks don't run fliers.

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Originally Posted by Whoshim

Some. Urza's Saga tokens, Uro, Kappa Cannoneer, Hogaak, Goblins/Goblin tokens, Sheoldred, Initiative creatures, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Death's Shadow. I'd say Moat is strong against a fair amount of the meta, but there are a lot of common matchups that it does nothing against. I feel like it is a boom or bust card, as it looks from our lists like some decks only run fliers and other decks don't run fliers.

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Good point. It still hits a lot. It's reasonable as a SB card. But is Humility just better, especially since this deck runs a lot of 1/1s? Or Dress Down, which comes out earlier, replaces itself, and can be looped with Hall of Heliod's Generosity? Moat just misses too much. 3 copies (with 2 main) seemed excessive.

The other observation from the video is the deck is just stone cold to fast combo. Boarding in 2 Forces and 2 grave hate into 80 cards isn't enough to win both game 2 and game 3. That's why Reeplcheep's version had maindeck discard. Cutting all the discard left the deck weak to unfair decks. There isn't much space to cram it in: either Baleful Strix or Moat. Strix seems to have more value in more situations.

I’m back here, wasting time on my water breaks. I took an extended break from magic right when
Temporary Isolation
Founding of the Third Path

were spoiled. I’m not as interested in tokens since that doesn’t interact well with the opponent, and seems hated out by the orc/orc answers.

I’m excited to brew again by Hopeless Nightmare which finally gives the control a 2nd cmc1 enchantment. Just like sarcomancy, it sorta gives you a cards worth of value if you squint, and then charges up your engine and serras. I tested a version with dress down instead of the third path due to the prismatic ending issue mentioned above. It did have issues with cmc 4 planeswalkers and durdling however.

I want to try alternatives to ending so that I can play hymn + founding. I think fracture is worth considering, as exile and cheap stuff is already well handled by temporary lockdown. Cling and sevinnes play well with founding and give more outlets for Serra mana.


4 Founding the Third Path
4 Trial of Ambition
2 Temporal Lockdown
4 Estrid’s Invocation

2 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Sevinne’s Reclamation
1 Oath of Kaya

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Cling to Dust
3 Fracture
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

3 Serra’s Sanctum
1 Hall of Heliod
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Delta
4 Strand
4 Marsh Flats
4 Snow Swamp
1 Snow Island
1 Snow Plains

1 Yorion, the sky Serpent
4 Thoughtseize
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
1 Graftdiggers Cage
1 Court of Grace
1 Rest in Peace
1 Stoney Silence
4 Enlightened Tutor


Hopefully I managed to keep the uniqueness of the deck. Building up resources/big mana like an enchantress deck, but while interacting. The sideboard is the etutor package + 4 Thoughtseize to be able to bring in it be any deck. Any thoughts or advice? Should the TS be IoK/duress so I can bring it in vs delver/burn?

This looks like a good deck for Court of Ardenvale, especially a control build. Sevinne on a white enchantment, with Monarch draw.

If you ever go back to Yorion tokens you may want Staff of the Storyteller. Even though it's not an enchantment, it's an amazing draw engine with the token makers and it blinks well with Aminatou/Yorion.

I saw court. As a grindy return effect I’m worried it is too vulnerable to removal or countermagic compared to sevinnes. You also don’t get the mill value.

Vs court of grace it doesn’t provide an actual wincon or protect the monarch as reliably. But it does go crazier with only 2 activations.
I was thinking of court of cunning and trying to win with mill. Cheaper and pitches to force, but it gets blasted. Estrids + it should finish games very fast. Is that crazy or genious?

The tokens build would probably drop the enchantment theme and just go tokens + super friends. That might be better at fair games, but it’s both less unique and more durdly. Once your engine is not also interaction, I’m worried that you just become bad enchantress/4c/8cast. It’s hard to make the tokens matter to unfair players as much as exiling all cheap things and mass discard. I’ve tried cabal therapy, jitte, the jitte saga and the cranial playing saga. Maybe I could try opposition?

I tested Court in Standstill and it proved very strong. I think the format is still sleeping on this card.

If you can even hold the Monarch 1 turn, you draw 2 cards + get 1 returned enchantment while having all mana open to interact and protect the Monarch. If you can use those free resources to hold the fort another turn, the advantage snowballs quickly. I found it more powerful than getting a token or milling. Granted you don't have anything as good as Standstill to return (draw 5 per turn), but the planeswalkers and some enchantments could be strong.

Compared to Court of Cunning, a 4cmc white enchantment doesn't die to Red blast, Abrupt Decay, or Prismatic Ending at 3. It's fairly hard for popular decks like Grixis, UB, artifacts blue, monoblack, and monored to remove. Even Jeskai & Esper lean too hard on Prismatic Ending or bounce. It's only really the green-based decks and 4c/5c that will have many answers to a resolved Court.

I’ll try ardenvale over grace, thanks for the suggestion. In the maindeck, we are looking at a grindy 1 off. I think being able to find reclamation off of founding mill, having a higher floor vs tempo decks, and being pseudo-uncounterable is more important in that role.

Any suggestions for the non hymn 2 cmc spell? The main thing for this card is to hit things that plow and lockdown don’t. The defaults for a normal deck would be prismatic ending, but it non-boes with founding. It also is best against things lockdown already hits and requires a light 4c splash.

I thought of Fracture first as it is best against PWs and saga. It is quite bad vs delver, and you trade exile for instant speed. Vanishing verse, which missed 3feri, comet, saga, artifacts, & that hamster pw, but is better vs most creature decks. Rite of Oblivion has a lot of synergy with my 8 garbage 1cmc permanents. It is the only thing that answers the one ring & it has flashback, but the floor is so low. It also makes serras worse and feels bad against countermagic. Drown in the loch is countermagic with founding synergy, but doesn’t answer anything plow or lockdown misses.

Am I missing anything important for my sideboard?

Yeah I think Hopeless Nightmare is a really huge card for this archetype as well. Is your decklist missing cards? I counted only 71 maindeck and you don't actually include Hopeless Nightmare or very many enchantments to copy

I played court of cunning in estrid before and yes with estrid online it does kill super fast, I think it's the best wincon you can play. 3cmc is great because can return it with Sevinnes Rec as well. The only reason why I wanted to play an additional different wincon was in case of people playing Emrakul in their deck or other archetype that you don't want to mill, but you have Hopeless Nightmare for that (or you can play 1 copy of a token generator or something, if you really want). Not only do some people have emrakul in maindeck from SNT or whatever but it's not uncommon for some decks to play 1 in SB as a plan vs Painter

Court of Ardenvale on the other hand I suspect might be winmore, like reading the described scenario returning standstill is so funny to me. Do you really need your control deck to play 2WW card that donates monarch if you are behind on board to return 1U enchantment that also donates opp 3 cards if you are behind on board. Obv in situation where you are slightly ahead or opponent can't interact with it then it's insane value but I don't think it's correct to build a deck in such a polarizing way.

I would question the underlying assumption that the deck needs to be built with Founding Third Path, you might be able to get away with just playing more generic/non-synergy interaction (Prismatic Ending / Thoughtseize / FoN / etc) and then if you want to keep the density of card advantage / grindy options high then add some Saurons Ransom or something. This deck (Esper Yorion Estrids) is also potentially a very strong starting point for becoming 4c Beans but no idea if the mana can work or you can fit everything

4 Abundant Growth
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Estrids Invocation
X Forces
X Blue cards (much easier now with Lorien Revealed to have enough blue cards to support a ton of forces in clunky Yorion decks while helping with the multicolour mana requirements and triggering beans)
etc

It also seems odd to me that you built the manabase with 0 prismatic vistas

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Court of Ardenvale on the other hand I suspect might be winmore, like reading the described scenario returning standstill is so funny to me. Do you really need your control deck to play 2WW card that donates monarch if you are behind on board to return 1U enchantment that also donates opp 3 cards if you are behind on board. Obv in situation where you are slightly ahead or opponent can't interact with it then it's insane value but I don't think it's correct to build a deck in such a polarizing way.

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That's not the only thing to return. That's just an example of one target you can get as an "I win" button if you've stabilized the game at a neutral position. Control does need a small number of ways to completely close the door, you can't just bank on endless 1-for-1 and 2-for-1 attrition. If you're at an empty board, that's a 4cmc to slam to basically say "you can't catch up now" - which is what you want 4cmc plays to do.

In grindier positions, there are other good targets to return: fetchland (ramp), Wasteland, Teferi (bounce something & draw & control the stack), Snapcaster (into removal), other planeswalkers, removal enchantments. I've used it to return Powder Keg multiple times to control small creatures and artifacts. Even if you lose Monarch, the failcase still returns the card to your hand. So if you're permanent-based control, you are guaranteed to get back something useful (hand or play) even if they steal the Monarch. It depends how many interactive enchantments you have to return though.