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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
I can't believe I'm somehow in the position of having to say "maybe play with one of the best two drop selection spells ever printed" to you.
There is a difference between flipping over the top 3 cards of a deck and seeing three 1-card combos, and flipping over the top 3 and seeing a bunch of Stifles and Dress Downs with nothing to enable. Now lets follow our "best two drop selection spell" as we do not get to pull both of the things to hand. We've already blown 2 mana at sorcery speed, now we need to blow 2 more to spam a Dress Down (nothing to enable, nor the mana left to do it) so that we can keep the Stifle in hand instead of shipping it to exile. Now the opponent gets to untap, draw a card, and make a land drop - and now you have to draw through a deck with Stifle and Daze...and you took the turn off to go nowhere. Now you go into every following turn even less likely to generate a favorable trade with Daze or Stifle...but who knows, maybe that Dress Down off Iteration found a 12/12, so let's Stifle that one into play (after the Iteration turn) and pass - nothing could possibly go wrong; they definitely won't have a 1 mana Daze-proof answer for it...
Normal legacy is built on playing 1-card combos, so if you can get 1 card to become 2 you've made progress...but in a StifleNought deck, you have a much higher threshold for that Iteration to generate progress. It is highly unlikely that you will flip over a 12/12 + the enabler...and it is also highly unlikely that even if you did flip those over, that you would also have the mana to do the thing on that turn before losing either piece A or piece B to exile forever. You'd actually be rather all-in on your opponent offering you a beneficial trade of a flipped Wasteland vs their nonbasic; because any time you don't get that, the Daze and Stifle stuff plods on towards irrelevance...and you have to draw through that chaff. This is all at the same time as the game plan is investing 2 cards to make a 12/12...so where exactly is the card quantity coming from for FoW? This is a strategic problem, largely created by not getting on board at 1cmc.
There are oh so many cards you cannot take with you through an Iteration if you are playing StifleNought. That's why it's crappy CA. There's a ton of cards you can't just fire off simply b/c you flipped them with the "best two drop selection spell." Add those 8 slots of Stifle and Dreadnought to the 4 of Daze and 4 of FoW and 4 of Dress Down and the remaining lands. This is so many combinations of slots lurking on the top of the deck just waiting to keep Iteration from even just generating CA [completely ignoring the strategic problems].
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Cards you can Just Fire Off in the posted list:
2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger (SLD) 225
2 Murktide Regent (MH2) 337
2 Expressive Iteration (STX) 379
4 Ponder (NCC) 229
4 Brainstorm (AFC) 79
4 Lightning Bolt (STA) 42
1 Scroll of Fate (C19) 58
4 Dress Down (MH2) 334
1 Badlands (NON) 0
4 Polluted Delta (ZNE) 2
4 Scalding Tarn (MH2) 439
1 Snow-Covered Island (KHM) 279
2 Underground Sea (NON) 0
3 Volcanic Island (NON) 0
4 Wasteland (ZNE) 30
So 31? (since you can't cast it and flip it)
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
That's an older version. The Challenge list I posted was based on it and cut the Iterations.
It's a tough spot because Dreadnought needs card draw but Iteration is such bad tempo when you're playing Stifle + Wasteland + Daze (Iteration is basically a dead card till turn 5ish). Running only 2 Iteration compromises between those two risks, but it's awkward.
Unlike Fox, I've actually played Expressive Iteration a lot in UR Delver and some brews. To get the "draw 2" you need one of the following:
1) Haven't played a land yet this turn
2) Cast Iteration with 1-2 other lands open and a lot of proactive 1 cmc plays in the deck
If you can't do one of those, it becomes a really bad Ponder (UR - Sorcery - Put 1 of top 3 cards in hand, get rid of the rest)
With Ragavan you could do #1 on turn 2, which made Iteration amazing. T1 Ragavan, Force their play, attack with Ragavan for Treasure, cast Iteration, recover lost blue card from FoW and play land from top 3. It snowballed almost as much as Ragavan + Daze. That meant Iteration was good early and good late. It gave the deck velocity without clogging up hands.
In theory you can do #1 on turn 3 without Ragavan. Don't play a 3rd land, tap out for Iteration, play 3rd land from exile. That's fine on paper. But in practice it's harder to do in a tempo deck. If you pick up a land for Daze, that slows down Iteration 1 turn. If you use a Wasteland, that slows down Iteration 1 turn. If you want to play around opponent's Daze on Iteration, that slows down Iteration 1 turn. If you need to hold up 1 Volc for instant interaction (REB, Stifle, Brainstorm), that slows down Iteration 1 turn. Tempo Stiflenought wants to use disruption like Daze, Wasteland and Stifle in the early turns... so it becomes hard to actually play that land from exile until later in the game.
What about #2? UR Ragavan had 10 1cmc creatures + 8 cantrips + 4 bolts as proactive plays on 1 mana. If you cast Iteration on 3 lands, you could cast one of those from exile and maintain tempo. Grixis Stiflenought has no 1 mana threats (Dreadnought doesn't count), so it only has the cantrips and Bolts as 1 mana plays, and they're not as proactive as putting a creature on the battlefield. Tapping out for Iteration into Ponder is much less proactive than Iteration into DRC/Delver. (Although honestly I don't understand why Stiflenought is not running 4x DRC when Dreadnought & Dress Down make Delirium much easier)
With Iteration on 4 lands you could also cast Dress Down (probably wasted), Kroxa, or Murktide. That allows more proactive plays. But it takes at least 4 lands in a deck that is losing land drops to Daze and Wasteland.
Basically in a deck with Stifle + Wasteland + Daze, you are not tapping out for turn 3 Iteration. You have to wait until much later. It's a dead card early game and only a draw 2 late game. Iteration is amazing in the right deck, but everything Stiflenought is trying to do works against what Iteration wants to do.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger (SLD) 225
2 Murktide Regent (MH2) 337
2 Expressive Iteration (STX) 379
4 Dress Down (MH2) 334
Needs minimum 4 lands (2 for Iteration + 2 to cast the card).
Murktide is very proactive. But EI -> EI/Dress Down is tapping 4 lands to durdle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
1 Scroll of Fate (C19) 58
Needs minimum 5 lands. Makes opponent's Daze topdeck not dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
1 Badlands (NON) 0
4 Polluted Delta (ZNE) 2
4 Scalding Tarn (MH2) 439
1 Snow-Covered Island (KHM) 279
2 Underground Sea (NON) 0
3 Volcanic Island (NON) 0
4 Wasteland (ZNE) 30
Needs a land drop. In theory that's possible on turn 3, but if you use Wasteland or Daze that sets you back a land. If you get Wastelanded because of the black splash (instead of playing fewer duals in UR), that sets you back a land. If you want to play around enemy Daze or hold up Stifle on their fetch, that sets you back a land too. To make those land plays possible, you have to hold back Iteration longer to have the land drop.
The only cheap convenient nonland plays from exile are Ponder, Brainstorm and Bolt (12). That's much worse than the decks that did well with Iteration. Those cards don't do much proactive with the board state.
Basically in this deck Iteration is dead early game and only works late game. "Works" means it chains into more cantrips or lands (not very aggressive) or the 4 2cmc threats, but it struggles to enable another Dreadnought. UR Delver got much more value out of Iteration.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Slip Out the Back is amazing with Dreadnought, and a great way to protect its threats or remove blockers. Exactly what this deck needed.
Recent 5-0 lists are playing it as a 2 of, which seems like a good place to start.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Captain Hammer
Slip Out the Back is amazing with Dreadnought, and a great way to protect its threats or remove blockers. Exactly what this deck needed.
Recent 5-0 lists are playing it as a 2 of, which seems like a good place to start.
Vision Charm kills Saga, mills DDFT, stops High Tide.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Captain Hammer
Slip Out the Back is amazing with Dreadnought, and a great way to protect its threats or remove blockers. Exactly what this deck needed.
Recent 5-0 lists are playing it as a 2 of, which seems like a good place to start.
I go all in with [card]Lazotep Plating[/card] It owns when lands foolishly tries to load up on Mazes.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
I think I can use sailor's bane and uro together.
And if I go insane: uro, Dreadnought, shredder and coco
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Kroxa plays well with some of the cards enabling Dreadnought so I assume its just there for redundancy. For my tastes the black splash is not worth it but then again he's putting up some nice results.
Reading through the last page here it's surprising to see so many people hating on EI. Early game you exile a land and take the better of the two options. Then late game you put the lands back. Its obviously better in other decks but its still good and the only time it sucks is if you play it early and don't hit a land. Worst case it's an Anticipate.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
Kroxa plays well with some of the cards enabling Dreadnought so I assume its just there for redundancy.
Hunted Phantasm and Hunted Horror do too. Doesn't mean they're automatically worth playing or warping the mana. The question should be if Kroxa is a good enough threat, not if it works with enablers. Why bend over backwards for Kroxa when you already have Murktide at 2-mana? If the deck wants more threat density, Dragon's Rage Channeler?
Edit: Uro is much stronger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
Reading through the last page here it's surprising to see so many people hating on EI. Early game you exile a land and take the better of the two options. ...the only time it sucks is if you play it early and don't hit a land.
"Early game" = turn 3 at the earliest, probably turn 5 in a Stifle+Waste+Daze deck with weak mana?? That counts as "early"?
Before that it's a dead card in hand. It sucks even more as a dead card. That's the real worst case scenario. When you don't even have the land drops to try EI and/or can't afford to tap out at sorcery speed without interacting with the board state, so it sits dead in hand.
Even lategame there aren't many proactive threats they can play off EI (with DRC in the deck, that number goes up). Even if you get lucky and EI reveals Dreadnought + enabler, unless you have 4+ lands you can't play it and must lose 1 of the pieces. If EI only reveals 1 of 2 pieces, you can't play from exile, so you have to decide whether it's worth putting in hand over some other card like Brainstorm/Force without knowing if you find the other piece. So they aren't playing EI -> threat. It's usually EI -> cantrip/land. EI's great in 1-drop Delver but awkward for A+B combo.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Uro, imo, is worth the hoops and I think Sailor's bane is too because it leaves the cards in the yard for either Uro or this guy, who I am instantly high on:
https://mythicspoiler.com/clb/cards/...dragonborn.jpg
Dreadnought in play? That's a 12/12.
Dreadnought dead? Still a 12/12!
Please don't exile my creature.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Hunted Phantasm and
Hunted Horror do too. Doesn't mean they're automatically worth playing or warping the mana. The question should be if Kroxa is a good enough threat, not if it works with enablers. Why bend over backwards for Kroxa when you already have Murktide at 2-mana? If the deck wants more threat density,
Dragon's Rage Channeler?
Edit: Uro is much stronger.
Agreed. Hence the very next sentence I wrote: "For my tastes the black splash is not worth it but then again he's putting up some nice results." i.e. I don't like adding colors to my deck unless there's truly a good reason to do so.
That being said, I wouldn't compare Kroxa to the cards to you mentioned because Kroxa has useful abilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
"Early game" = turn 3 at the earliest, probably turn 5 in a Stifle+Waste+Daze deck with weak mana?? That counts as "early"?
Before that it's a dead card in hand. It sucks even more as a dead card. That's the real worst case scenario. When you don't even have the land drops to try EI and/or can't afford to tap out at sorcery speed without interacting with the board state, so it sits dead in hand.
Even lategame there aren't many proactive threats they can play off EI (with DRC in the deck, that number goes up). Even if you get lucky and EI reveals Dreadnought + enabler, unless you have 4+ lands you can't play it and must lose 1 of the pieces. If EI only reveals 1 of 2 pieces, you can't play from exile, so you have to decide whether it's worth putting in hand over some other card like Brainstorm/Force without knowing if you find the other piece. So they aren't playing EI -> threat. It's usually EI -> cantrip/land. EI's great in 1-drop Delver but awkward for A+B combo.
Yes. EI can be a dead card in a Wasteland format. In those cases, pitch it to Force.
Yes. EI requires decision-making. Make good decisions.
A few copies is not a bad idea. It's card advantage and selection. Just as you say there are bad situations, in some situations its the best top deck because it instantly draws you into your combo. Let's be a little more objective here.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
Yes. EI can be a dead card in a Wasteland format. In those cases, pitch it to Force.
Just as you say there are bad situations, in some situations its the best top deck. Let's be a little more objective here.
Yes, EI is good sometimes. Card advantage helps. I replied to "the only time it sucks". That wasn't the worst case scenario. You misrepresented the floor, so I focused on the negatives.
The real downside is it's dead early. You have to wait till a certain phase of the game before it's viable as draw 2. Deck construction choices for Grixis Stiflenought delay that even longer. No amount of in-game good decisions can compensate.
When you talk about the good sides, do you mean in UR Delver or in Grixis Stiflenought? EI is much better when you can cast a cheap threat from exile (Delver/DRC/Ragavan/Murktide) and put an interaction spell or cantrip in hand. That way you're impacting the board state for tapping out and gaining 2 relevant cards. EI is much better in Delver. EI -> cantrip + land (the more likely outcome here) is less impressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
Yes. EI requires decision-making. Make good decisions.
The problem is that EI limits the range of decisions/skill you can apply compared to other draw spells. Especially in a deck like this with statistically fewer lines that are good tempo to play off EI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
because it instantly draws you into your combo
EI doesn't work well with A+B combos. Unless you have enough mana left to cast both pieces that turn, you can't keep both cards.
e.g. topdeck EI into Dreadnought + Dress Down. Unless you have 5 lands (land revealed by EI doesn't count), you didn't draw into the combo. You must lose 1 piece. No good decisions can fix that. You put either A or B in hand and then hope to topdeck into the other, or you keep the 3rd card and lose both A and B. That's all EI allows. EI restricts your decisions compared to other lategame draw spells.
EI gets better if you add more proactive cheap plays (more threats to play from exile), clean up the manabase (easier to keep 3+ lands) and don't play Daze (easier to keep 3+ lands).
Rough example (assuming URx Stiflenought still):
//Creatures: 12
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Murktide Regent
1 Brazen Borrower
//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation
//Enchantments: 3
3 Dress Down
//Lands: 21
2 Urza's Saga
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Mountain
//Sideboard: 15
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Alpine Moon
1 Meltdown
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
2 Surgical Extraction
2 End the Festivities
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
Something like that has more resilient mana, more cheap proactive threats it can play off EI, no Daze to set you back land drops. Saga makes it easier to set up the Dreadnought combo (e.g. EI -> Saga + Dress Down/Stifle) while also helping Delirium, adding threats, and tutoring for hate pieces.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
@FTW probably can't drop Daze in UR until it is banned, even though it's the worst card in the deck. When there is no Daze, you need to use the mana progression casting PWs and Scroll of Fate. Again though the question is why we're playing Ponder instead of Standstill, and if Standstill why are we playing MurkGoyf over Grim Lavamancer. On the Volcs, you need 1x, could play 2x, but will lose an inordinate amount of games to 3x.
3x Nought
4x DRC
2x Lavamancer (swap a DRC to Lavamancer if your meta is Elves and DnT)
4x FoW
4x Bstorm
4x Bolt
3x Stifle
2x FoN
1x Spikefield
4x Standstill
2x Dress Down
2x Scroll of Fate
2x Shark'nado
1x Phyrexian Furnace
2x Karn (could also be Chandra ToD)
4x Tarn
4x Vista
3x Island
2x Mountain
1x Volc
1x Otawara
3x Wasteland
2x Saga
Consider 1 more cut for the 21st land.
SB:
PoP x2
Blast x3
Keg x1
Relic x1
EE x1
Torpor x1
Staticaster x1
Ashiok x2
Alpine Moon x2
Liquimetal x1
In general do not play End the Festivities b/c Powder Keg hits Elves and 8cast and a huge amount of other decks. Likewise EE is better against Elves (and a ton of other decks) while doing most of the same stuff as Meltdown. Null Rod is 1-sided and maindeck (Karn), also it kills Chalice.
With mana development if you shouldn't be rewarding opponents for playing Blast and Bolt and Ending; cut the pointless Narset and board super Chandra if those are your targets. Blood Moon is unplayable, as is B2B - the only decks these are good against are all flooded with Boseju...also Alpine Moon is 1-sided and comes down on turn 1 (before Standstill).
Surgical is excessive, so unless your paper meta is flooded with yolo-combo it is better to have repeatable value yard hate. Better vs Delver and everything fair. Pithing Needle just dies to Ending or gets countered by Chalice on 1; not sure what this is for.
Main issue with UR, much like UG is that it doesn't have a Verdict or Toxic or Dead of Winter. UG is better at forcing out a 1x Lotus Field to play 2x SB Verdict (Lotus Field as only white source), but in UR we're better off with a super Chandra downtick, if that's what you're trying to cover.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Good points Fox.
I started from the premise they want to play Stiflenought, not Dreadstill. Then making minor tweaks to the shell so EI is less underwhelming as a draw engine.
Otherwise yes, Standstill is a more reliable draw engine for assembling Dreadnought so just play UR Dreadstill. Daze is also easier to play with a draw engine that requires 2 lands instead of one that needs 3-5.
Is tempo UR Dreadstill possible (i.e. with Daze)? What would it look like? 4th Stifle and Wasteland and more burn instead of the high mana stuff? Does Rood have a current list?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Rood does more of the UWR stuff recently. He's doing the Tundra/Daze stuff so it operates more like StifleNought with the card Standstill (combat only wincon).
You can still play Daze in UR Dreadstill, but you lose the good cards: PW and FoN. Otherwise same list, some different SB in the Karn wish area.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
FTW, per usual everything you said is right on the money. EI is definitely better in Delver but I still think its a worthwhile card to use here; just maybe not a full set.
The list you gave is interested and I always like when you can play tempo with combo together e.g. Murk in Doomsday. Many times I find having those two strategies in the same deck makes your opponent play suboptimally i.e. they get overly focused on preventing one strategy and lose to the other.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
FTW, per usual everything you said is right on the money. EI is definitely better in Delver but I still think its a worthwhile card to use here; just maybe not a full set.
Agreed. Some card draw is good. And EI gets better when you diversify with cheap standalone threats (DRC).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purple Blood
The list you gave is interested and I always like when you can play tempo with combo together e.g. Murk in Doomsday. Many times I find having those two strategies in the same deck makes your opponent play suboptimally i.e. they get overly focused on preventing one strategy and lose to the other.
Murk in Doomsday are completely different wincons. Plan A is Thassa. Plan B is combat damage. While it confuses opponent's hate, advancing one plan doesn't help the other. It's like having regular damage + infect damage in the same deck. You can trick opponent but they're 2 unrelated plans.
Here Dreadnought + Murktide/DRC are still the same wincon: 20 damage. It doesn't matter where that damage comes from. Whether you make a combo fatty or play Murktide or cast burn spells, all damage sources advance your plan. 2 Dreadnought hits. Or 1 Dreadnought hit + 8 from Murktide. Or 1 Dreadnought hit + Bolts. Or a couple Murktide hits. Or Murktide + DRC + bolts. You just need 20 damage combined. Doesn't matter how. Some A+B decks must resolve the combo to win. Some creature decks need their big creatures to stay alive long enough for lethal damage. But UR doesn't care what the damage source is. 2-card 12/12, 1-card 8/8, burn... All of it adds to 20 damage. It can win without ever making A+B and with 0 creatures left (topdeck Bolt).
So the idea here is you don't need to commit too much to the Dreadnought combo. In some matches the 2-card 12/12 is very strong. In others it's weak. Instead of doubling down on more 2-card fatties (Kroxa, Slip, Torpor, Hunted Horror) and losing to the same hate, you can mix in fair threats. The fair threats play better with EI too.
Fox has a good point though:
Expressive Iteration UR - pick 2 from 3 cards, with some limits
Standstill 1U - draw 3 of 3 cards
Card draw is good. But why not Standstill?
//Creatures: 10
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Grim Lavamancer
//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
//Enchantments: 7
4 Standstill
3 Dress Down
//Artifacts: 1
1 Retrofitter Foundry
//Lands: 20
2 Urza's Saga
3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Mountain
//Sideboard: 15
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Powder Keg
1 Pithing Needle
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
2 Alpine Moon
2 Price of Progress
...
9 early threats to curve into Standstill (DRC, Lavaman, Saga, Retro). 10 free counters to protect. Stifle + Daze + Waste (+ Needle) mana denial.
@Fox: Saga -> Needle uncounterably disrupts many things without giving opponent a relevant interaction window. Depths, Boseiju, 8-cast engines, Vial, Painter, fringe combos. If they respond to Saga trigger to avoid Needle, you don't need to get Needle. If they don't respond, you can blow them out with Needle. You can even "value Needle" to LD their uncracked fetch.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Retrofitter is a really bad card vs Ending and Delver and combo. Whatever you're finding from maindeck better draw a card or instantly turn on delirium by sacrificing itself. If you had a Saga under Standstill, then the Retro is winmore...and all to just get 1-shot by Ending. Note that Furnace helps colorless and red to draw towards blue while also building delirium.
When it comes to the Saga stuff, there is a large drop-off after Map and/or cantrip yard hate (Furnace, Soul Guide, Relic, Nihil). The next best thing would be Currency Converter. A case can also be made for Cursed Scroll b/c this deck counts to 20. Any Needle stuff can stay in the SB for Karn to wish, or bring in vs linear strategies.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Without Retrofitter, don't the Saga tokens risk being unimpressive 2/2s? In Landstill I had ways to chain multiple Sagas, but here without Retrofitter you're accepting just making bears. Low ceiling. Are you saying it's better to just accept the bears as incidental value instead of committing harder to the Construct plan and risking a blow out?
In a Daze build there's no Karn to wish for targets, so isn't Needle (tutorable with Saga) at least better than other options?
Would you still play cards like EE and Torpor when they're not tutorable?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Without Retrofitter, don't the Saga tokens risk being unimpressive 2/2s? In Landstill I had ways to chain multiple Sagas, but here without Retrofitter you're accepting just making bears. Low ceiling. Are you saying it's better to just accept the bears as incidental value instead of committing harder to the Construct plan and risking a blow out?
In a Daze build there's no Karn to wish for targets, so isn't Needle (tutorable with Saga) at least better than other options?
Would you still play cards like EE and Torpor when they're not tutorable?
I'm fine with them being 3/3s (Furnace is 3rd artifact). I am not a fan of losing a land drop, tapping 6 lands to make 2x constructs, and then tutor a Retro I can't activate (or even if I could, I get a whole 1/1 that will never accomplish anything). The way this story ends is they Dress Down your dudes and Ending your Retro, and you're the fool with Daze in your deck vs an opponent you just gave 4 turns of land drops to. You need to be able to attack a resource and go up a card vs the obvious Ending (which they are forced to use on Furnace b/c the yard damage is overwhelming if left unchecked).
Needle has the same issues described above; you're just killing yourself with Daze. If you do this to yourself with flawed deck construction, it really isn't worth playing a game at all if opponent has Island, Plains, and Ending in their deck. Save time and walk away...knowing that such deck construction creates a catastrophic weakness versus around 20-25% of the meta (Grixis, Counterbalance, MindTwister, Uro).
Torpor is sometimes there, sometimes not in UR. UR's wrath problem is pretty awful, so I'd have at least one SB slot of Keg or EE. Two slots of space in EE + Keg is also fine as it hits so much of the meta.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
I'm fine with them being 3/3s (Furnace is 3rd artifact).
2/2 is likely. Assuming Retrofitter doesn't survive, another Saga target wouldn't either (or they kill a Construct). Good point that Phyrexian Furnace is better than Soul-Guide Lantern at forcing a profitable trade, at the expense of being worse tempo for GY interaction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
I am not a fan of losing a land drop, tapping 6 lands to make 2x constructs, and then tutor a Retro I can't activate (or even if I could, I get a whole 1/1 that will never accomplish anything). The way this story ends is they Dress Down your dudes and Ending your Retro
What else are the lands doing under Standstill? If they remove Retro, you draw 3 and maybe make a 1/1 (7 power on board instead of 4). Unlikely you fall behind.
Retro forces them to play into Standstill sooner. Otherwise tap for 1/1 -> 9 power on board (4/4+4/4+1/1) -> Next turn 12 power on board (5/5 + 5/5 + 1/1 + 1/1). That gives opponent little time to topdeck out and 3 things to stop (2 constructs + Retro), so it is very unlikely they stabilize through Standstill. With Furnace it caps at 6 power on board. Slower clock means opponent has more time to draw out of it, more time to build mana vs Daze+Waste, and fewer permanents to answer through Standstill (Furnace is not an imminent problem). Are you saying that's "win-more" in those matches while the downside is higher?
If no Standstill out, Dreadnought is the primary target anyway. Or SB hate.
Without Standstill you aren't tapping out for Constructs->Retro if you had anything else to do with your mana. But what else do you need mana for on the tempo plan (low curve, Daze, no mana progression)? Above curve ends at 2 lol. Saga+Retro converts excess mana into value.
For the 25% of matchups where it's catastrophically bad, nothing forces you to tutor for the Retro or keep it main postboard. Get Furnace/Soul-Guide instead?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
It's pretty rare that you will need to do more than make two assembly worker-sized dudes under a Standstill to force opponents into making bad decisions. If you've assembled Standstill + Saga, the Retrofitter tutor on top of it is just excessive; you're not gaining win % b/c you topped it all off with Retro. It's similar to playing Karn in a deck without Sol Lands and wishing for a Lattice that shouldn't be in your SB; you don't get bonus points for overkilling already-dead opponents...but you definitely lose points for allowing someone escape Daze range while getting everything from Saga 1-for-1'd [Dress Down into Ending]. If that's what you're doing, you may as well cut Saga and go back to Factory. While it is cool that constructs can be larger than an assembly worker, it's not something you should be going all-in on.
Even if you don't want to do the Furnace-type or Map, you can't look at Retrofitter and be like "this is better than Currency Converter." Currency turns all discards into 2/2s [effectively making it a non-Wasteland'able Field of the Dead]. Otherwise you can loot and fix your hand as the game drags on. Retrofitter is a horrid card here; you're not playing 8x thopter like Ninjas, nor are you meme'ing with Ancient Tomb stuff. Retro dies and does nothing or dies and makes a 1/1; anything more than that is pretty magical christmasland'y.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
If you've assembled Standstill + Saga, the Retrofitter tutor on top of it is just excessive; you're not gaining win % b/c you topped it all off with Retro. While it is cool that constructs can be larger than an assembly worker, it's not something you should be going all-in on.
Fair point. With Landstill I had a couple games where Standstill + slow clock gave combo too many draw steps to draw into outs before being forced to crack Standstill (Map into 2nd Saga is slower). I thought that problem would be amplified in a Daze deck because taking longer turns off your own outs (draw 3 into Daze, if you miss Force). You've got far, far more reps though, so maybe that doesn't come up often enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
but you definitely lose points for allowing someone escape Daze range while getting everything from Saga 1-for-1'd [Dress Down into Ending].
The point was to have a line that doesn't let them escape Daze range by threatening a faster clock, forcing interaction sooner. If they get more turns to draw cards and play more lands, Standstill -> Daze fails. This isn't UW. Standstill draws into Bolt and Daze, not StP and Verdict. The interaction you can draw gets worse if they have more time.
T1 Retro T2 Standstill also gives +1 threat to sneak under Standstill, forcing interaction, even if Retro by itself is slow. Furnace doesn't double as another threat, so slightly lower odds of curving threat into Standstill.
You're only "allowing them" to escape Daze range if you take turns off for Saga when you could have used that mana on other things, then the Saga gambit fails (opponent finds a way to trade positively, e.g. Dress Down + Ending or Meltdown). But if you have nothing else to use the mana on, they still escape Daze if you got Furnace or didn't make Constructs. Doing less doesn't make them play into Daze. Don't you fall behind to Dress Down either way? What other meaningful decision do you have?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Retro dies and does nothing or dies and makes a 1/1; anything more than that is pretty magical christmasland'y.
If they have the Ending/Shatter and don't have to use it on Retro, Dreadnought dies instead. In that scenario, what do you do instead to stay ahead of Ending? You can get Furnace to avoid bad trades, but then you don't have a threat and they aren't forced to trade negatively with Furnace. They can save removal for your next threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Even if you don't want to do the Furnace-type or Map, you can't look at Retrofitter and be like "this is better than Currency Converter."
Tbh I haven't looked at Currency Converter, new card. Card looks good. It's slower to speed up the Saga clock (2/2s are non-artifact, 2 taps to make 1 Treasure) but overall it does make better threats and value. Looks like most Saga decks are running it over Retro, or just cutting Retro period.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
They're going to re-cast the removal either by SCM or Day's/Endurance re-shuffle or just Sevinne's back a Teferi and bounce. You have to double-kill the removal spells from decks like these, and while it's fine to duress the removal spell from hand with a dude, you can't be using a second dude to vindicate the removal from GY to exile. The way you beat these decks is being able mill their GY to exile with permanents that don't get seen by Plow.
It's incredibly annoying and tedious work to take these midrange decks [people mistakenly call control] and reduce them to hellbent, mill their deck, and also mill their GY to exile.
Now ofc UR has a harder time doing this than UW, but the compensation is being able to burn them out...but we have a problem where 2nd construct is made, Retro is tutored, and then no life total damage is done b/c of Dress Down before damage step, and then they Ending the Retro. Zero progress was made, and you can't afford that. You didn't clear the way for Dreadnought at all, that Ending in GY is still the one that's going to get you.
Again it's real effing tedious, but you're going to have to either: draw a card off their Ending or Map for Saga #2. It's all great and wonderful if the thing you tutored didn't instantly die before you ever untapped with it, b/c that would represent advantage under the next Standstill whether it's eating yard, making dudes, or finding Saga again...but that thing you grabbed is going to die 9 times out of 10, so it needs to participate in the rebuild effort - and this is where Retro is an abject failure of a magic card.
Here's how this needs to go down:
-if no 4th mana (or land 4 in hand) do not make 2nd dude [dies to same Dress Down], ensure mana for Map or Furnace-type or Currency Converter.
-if 4th mana you get to make 2nd dude and protect Furnace-type
-if 5th mana you get to make 2nd dude and protect Map or Currency.
-if less than 5 mana get killed by your own Retro.
-if 5 or more mana get killed b/c a 1/1 servo off a dead Retro still loses.
You can't afford to not get closer to the next Standstill or have fodder for Scroll of Fate when magical christmasland doesn't happen. I get the temptation though; on the surface T1 Retro into Standstill seems great, and unchallenged Retro with gobs of mana seems great, and getting uber-big constructs off Saga seems great, and gobs of mana and thopter block spams vs Murktide seems great...but that's just never going to reliably happen. You're are going to lose horribly more often than not b/c the fail case Retro is awful. The card is a trap.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
The way you beat these decks is being able mill their GY to exile with permanents that don't get seen by Plow.
It's incredibly annoying and tedious work to take these midrange decks [people mistakenly call control] and reduce them to hellbent, mill their deck, and also mill their GY to exile.
I can see that plan working for UW Dreadstill or Landstill, but is it viable for UR?
Slow-attacking their graveyard with Furnace does take away their tools eventually, but delaying the game that long (Turn 20+) gets worse and worse for UR. Furnace takes time. You gain small advantages from Furnace picking away, but then you get punished in the draw step (Daze, mana denial, mana flood) while the UWx midrange deck pulls ahead with its superior lategame. By the time Furnace has protected you from extra removals, opponent pulled ahead in other ways. Overall how does UR come out on top with this plan? Is there a meaningful gain in win%, or is this just a loss either way?
Even if you successfully exile-mill their graveyard to prevent recursion, they have as many removals as we have threats, so they may remove everything anyway. Delaying till Turn 20+ just draws them into that removal, by the time you've dodged Snap-Plow.
Isn't it much easier for UR to Surgical Extraction the 1st Plow/Ending? Then you just need to spend 1 body to Duress them (instead of 4) and you can exile from graveyard immediately without waiting many turns to hit the right cards. Surgical also breathes some life into the mana denial plan (Stifle+Surgical a 4x fetch), which is otherwise dead unless they built really badly.
1-of Soul-Guide Lantern or Relic of Progenitus off Saga will clear their graveyard much more quickly without costing so many turns, while Furnace forces a longer game.
Edit: Or what about running a back-up threat that is Protection from White or Hexproof? Since white removal is the worst matchup, instead of trying to slowly grind them out of all white removal, why not play a threat that ignores it? Kroxa fails here, but something else could do the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
but we have a problem where 2nd construct is made, Retro is tutored, and then no life total damage is done b/c of Dress Down before damage step
With 1 mana open we can postcombat Dreadnought off their Dress Down, so the 2nd construct could be favorable to make if Dreadnought's in hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Again it's real effing tedious, but you're going to have to either: draw a card off their Ending or Map for Saga #2. It's all great and wonderful if the thing you tutored didn't instantly die before you ever untapped with it, b/c that would represent advantage under the next Standstill whether it's eating yard, making dudes, or finding Saga again...but that thing you grabbed is going to die 9 times out of 10, so it needs to participate in the rebuild effort
Furnace just doesn't seem like enough of a rebuild to matter. Especially for UR, which has to be the aggressor in the matchup. Map into Saga #2 at least keeps the pressure on. Currency Converter would too.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
It is easier to do postboard with a 2nd Furnace-type and Ashioks. The main thing is turning Saga into a card they can't tolerate, and must bleed hand size to handle (and by handle I mean discard a card while I draw a card). Either endpoint is a losing proposition for them on this axis; the bigger problem with UR is that Daze is a worthless card in the matchup which also costs me the ability to ship a spell straight to exile (FoN) to help the Furnace-type control GY and it costs me Karn and the ability to destroy their 1x basic Mountain and completely strip red...at which point they auto-lose to Scroll of Fate, having access to only 2 colors.
The way it plays out with Daze present is early dude vs Plow while Stifle/Waste/Daze vs spells, the game usually progresses to Standstill & draw 3 goes after their PW plays, and I switch out of playing Plow targets and only put down Ending targets. In comes a Furnace-type and looks for a floor of killing 2x Ending (-1 Ending from hand targeting Furnace, -1 previously-cast Ending from GY). As long as Day's and Echo are not banned, the game settles to a race to Otawara target Narset vs Day's on stack (note that Lavamancer is doing his part to make sure lands don't make it back into my deck). Damage is being towards life total throughout this process, with the goal being to deplete all remaining Plows and SCMs with lands and Dazes played as 2/2 manifest in late game; combine with Bolt targeting life total to duress remaining blue cards. Avoid spending blue to kill non-blue as much as possible. It's pretty scrappy and tedious, and UW Dreadstill or UBw Landstill have way better tools, but at the end of the day all UWR decks have no access to playable, quality lifegain; it's just a long drawn-out process of counting to 20 against them.
The main issue is that Daze is a trash magic card, except vs aggressive combos and Delver...and you'd rather have FoN and Karn vs combo. It's tiring to be forced to run it b/c of Delver's race to the bottom. That said, the Delver matchup is a pushover. The matchup vs UWR is at best "fine" b/c we had to run Daze; we certainly will beat UWR more than Delver can (Delver has to pathologically jam futile threats into known interaction, so they're all-in UWR not figuring out that all they have to do is break EI/Shame Island/Daze loop). The bigger issue is that UWR is playing banned effects [MindTwister] which randomly happens to dumpster Uro, a card which otherwise makes their color set completely unplayable (once Day's is banned with Echo, they must all turn to 3-4c Uro midrange to compete. This solves the matchup annoyance).
We can talk about things like Surgical and Soul-Guide/Relic, but it's kind of pointless b/c we're talking about what we can do to react to a format warped by the presence of banned effects. Once wotc wakes up and bans legacy's worst offenders, Furnace will already be pointed at Murktide [Goyf] and Uro [FIRE] while Hymn/CB/MindTwister [total hand destruction] disappears again. The mechanics of what we want are repeatable yard reduction, option to cantrip, and leaving our GY alone [DRC, Lavamancer]; that's where Soul-Guide and Relic don't fit in as well as Furnace. The better option is to just play UBw Landstill or UW Dreadstill while the format is on life support thanks to Day's, Echo, and Daze. These color combinations play more non-dudes on 3 and have built-in basic Mountain killing for total red stripping from UWR as another way to punish mono-cropping on Ending. Both also play the Otawara subgame vs Day's and Ashioks + yard hate pieces for total library and GY kills. UBw has Cling, Drown, and direct PW kill spells, while UW has very easy yolo-Karn wish Liquimetal lines thanks to March now targeting coated basics or PWs.
What we're seeing in legacy is Oko was enough of a 1-card combo to stamp MindTwister out of the format (people tried if for like 3 weeks, and stopped when they realized they're still just going to die to elk beats), some Uro things, Ragavan arriving and continuing to suppress MindTwister and force Uro play (lifegain), and now the last FIRE card's not being able to suppress MindTwister having lost the Ragavan shields Delver was giving them. As for Delver, it's scrubbing out b/c Goyf is trash vs UWR, even when it's called MurkGoyf. For all the StifleNought players, welcome to legacy where you no longer get to roll just Delver in challenges; back to leagues to find enough over-represented combo matchups in a row. On the spectrum of winrates vs UWR total hand destruction, subset MindTwister: UBw Landstill ~ UW Dreadstill > UWr Standstill ~ UR Dreadstill > UR Delver >>> StifleNought.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
We can talk about things like Surgical and Soul-Guide/Relic, but it's kind of pointless b/c we're talking about what we can do to react to a format warped by the presence of banned effects. Once wotc wakes up and bans legacy's worst offenders, Furnace will already be pointed at Murktide [Goyf] and Uro [FIRE] while Hymn/CB/MindTwister [total hand destruction] disappears again.
It's very relevant since this is the format. Overpowered/banned FIRE effects are a feature, not a bug. They won't ban this one until they've printed the next 3. The ban is then a lame attempt to "fix" the format to appease players, at face value. But really it's a mechanism to force Eternal players to dump money into the next necessary FIRE chase-Mythic, without getting compensation for the money spent on the last one (banned). This is highly profitable for them short-term and unlikely to change. They don't care about Eternal players unless they can bait us into spending more money. Eternal was historically their least profitable market (and most profitable for secondary market), so shareholders dictate they make printings and bannings in a way to reverse that. Fairness of the game is secondary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
The mechanics of what we want are repeatable yard reduction, option to cantrip, and leaving our GY alone [DRC, Lavamancer]; that's where Soul-Guide and Relic don't fit in as well as Furnace.
That fits better with the Daze-less UR control plan. Furnace leaves our yard alone and is repeatable but also takes forever to hit the right cards (e.g. cannot exile multiple StP in response to Day's/Echo/Endurance on the stack). It's a very slow grind that prolongs the game. The tempo cost is real for a low-curve Daze deck. Against GY combos Furnace also struggles if they have more than 1 relevant target to hit.
Is Soul-Guide not good enough? You can just hold it to respond to their Day's/Echo/Endurance/Snapcaster. While it's not "repeatable", it still exiles everything before opponent can use it. The Relic/Furnace effect is better vs Murktide and DRC, though that's a different matchup.
What about Unlicensed Hearse? Manifests, Constructs and Currency Converter tokens turn into X/X haste. You can even crew with Dreadnought before the sacrifice trigger. That seems good for a UR tempo plan, while Furnace forces a long drawn out control game for a deck without enough control tools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
What we're seeing in legacy is Oko was enough of a 1-card combo to stamp MindTwister out of the format (people tried if for like 3 weeks, and stopped when they realized they're still just going to die to elk beats), some Uro things, Ragavan arriving and continuing to suppress MindTwister and force Uro play (lifegain), and now the last FIRE card's not being able to suppress MindTwister having lost the Ragavan shields Delver was giving them. As for Delver, it's scrubbing out b/c Goyf is trash vs UWR, even when it's called MurkGoyf. For all the StifleNought players, welcome to legacy where you no longer get to roll just Delver in challenges; back to leagues to find enough over-represented combo matchups in a row. On the spectrum of winrates vs UWR total hand destruction, subset MindTwister: UBw Landstill ~ UW Dreadstill > UWr Standstill ~ UR Dreadstill > UR Delver >>> StifleNought.
What about Stiflenought playing MindTwister as its draw engine?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
It's very relevant since this is the format. Overpowered/banned FIRE effects are a feature, not a bug. They won't ban this one until they've printed the next 3. The ban is then a lame attempt to "fix" the format to appease players, at face value. But really it's a mechanism to force Eternal players to dump money into the next necessary FIRE chase-Mythic, without getting compensation for the money spent on the last one (banned). This is highly profitable for them short-term and unlikely to change. They don't care about Eternal players unless they can bait us into spending more money. Eternal was historically their least profitable market (and most profitable for secondary market), so shareholders dictate they make printings and bannings in a way to reverse that. Fairness of the game is secondary.
For the most part FIRE design is fine; stupid, but fine. The defining characteristic of FIRE is that it invalidates at least Goyf or total hand destruction, and most often it invalidates both at the same time. As far as Standstill decks are concerned, FIRE has minimal effect on viability or our card selections. We note a healthier format with FIRE pushing out Counterbalance and Hymn, and although MindTwister flavor of total hand destruction is beyond idiotic, it's either much slower (UWR) or all-in (Echo cannon). The decks most affected by FIRE are those which have no strategy beyond playing the most power-crept 1-card combos; as such, they don't have any defense other than buying the new FIRE card and changing colors to cast it. As far as fairness goes, there's no point in having rules that player 2 gets to keep or mulligan an opening hand if they're just going to get LED/Echo'd out of it before ever getting a turn to use the hand they chose. So especially with Echo there is a game structure problem, whereas with UWR we're all sitting here looking at Timetwister and Mind Twist on the banlist and going "wtf wotc?"
Your financial point holds up better with Wrenn, Oko, and Ragavan. All cards that were exceptionally easy to identify as needing to be banned (though Wrenn did mask the Oko problem while it was legal). The counterpoint would be that Breach, Valki, and Lurrus all got banned [for Valki, effectively banned] largely before paper profits.
Quote:
That fits better with the Daze-less UR control plan. Furnace leaves our yard alone and is repeatable but also takes forever to hit the right cards (e.g. cannot exile multiple StP in response to Day's/Echo/Endurance on the stack). It's a very slow grind that prolongs the game. The tempo cost is real for a low-curve Daze deck. Against GY combos Furnace also struggles if they have more than 1 relevant target to hit.
Is Soul-Guide not good enough? You can just hold it to respond to their Day's/Echo/Endurance/Snapcaster. While it's not "repeatable", it still exiles everything before opponent can use it. The Relic/Furnace effect is better vs Murktide and DRC, though that's a different matchup.
What about
Unlicensed Hearse? Manifests, Constructs and
Currency Converter tokens turn into X/X haste. You can even crew with Dreadnought before the sacrifice trigger. That seems good for a UR tempo plan, while Furnace forces a long drawn out control game for a deck without enough control tools.
I wouldn't say the tempo plan suffers any more than say casting Ponder hurts Delver's tempo plan. Where Ponder sets up the next turn, Furnace is more likely to generate a trade (potentially forcing an opponent to turn on Daze). The floor with Furnace-types is always cantripping. Always remember that a 0 or 1cmc non-dude artifact that draws a card without going to the GY/exile is a 100% banned card (see also SDT, Astro); these types of cards have a deceptively high power level at baseline. They don't need to do everything, because just by resolving with a mana up you will always accomplish the goal of restricting the opponent's lines of play. Relic is better at keeping our DRC alive (strip own delirium to avoid attack into obvious Endurance or Ice-Fang), but it wipes our own GY, ends up in exile (relevant for Karn), and gives opponent the option to exile lands rather than instant/sorceries (Murktide, SCM). Furnace is more aggressive as it goes to GY for DRC/Lavamancer and it removes choice from the opponent, but in exchange you lose the nuclear GY option. Soul-Guide I generally dislike b/c it just doesn't ever stop Murktide or Goyf, it merely delays these without drawing a card...which means your opponent has an easier path to rebuilding GY. It is rare that Soul-Guide's ETB was enough to not need to nuke the yard, and also rare that the GY nuke mode was :0: rather than :1:.
Hearse is not a great card when we're targeting Uro and Murktide. This is one of those cards where it's the best thing Ancient Tomb has access to. The closest this would get to my deck is a SB slot for Karn wish. It's actually rather fascinating to see UBW mages choosing to play Hearse over the vastly superior card: Kaya 3cmc.
With the Furnace, I'm looking for a prison element that constricts play rather than just pillow forts. Furnace achieves this while advancing my other plans (especially DRC), where Relic and Soul-Guide can't quite deliver on the same level. In the future I'm waiting for :1: casting cost, tap to exile target card in a GY, pay :0: or :1: without tapping to wipe all of target player's GY & draw a card.
Quote:
What about Stiflenought playing MindTwister as its draw engine?
Not competitive, just lower winrate than Narset x4 downticking to find 1x Day's or LED/Echo. You would also be disfavored in the MindTwister mirror; you're just playing harder into their Plow/Ending or Chalice.
^This is the kind of nonsense Blade players do, telling themselves adding SDT/CB or Hymn or Oko or Uro or Ragavan or DHA, diluted by their bad cards (SFM/equip), is progress.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
How does Slip Out the Back interact with Uro/Kroxa/Hunted Horror?
Because both Dress Down and Stifle interact beautifully with those cards.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
How does
Slip Out the Back interact with Uro/Kroxa/Hunted Horror?
Because both Dress Down and Stifle interact beautifully with those cards.
ETB still happens (good for Kroxa/Uro, horrible for Hunted).
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
ETB still happens (good for Kroxa/Uro, horrible for Hunted).
So does Uro still stick around the way it does after a dress down or stifle?
Or is it only useful to protect Uro from exile effects like StP?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
So does Uro still stick around the way it does after a dress down or stifle?
Correct.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
It both enables the combo and also protects your threats from all forms of removal with additional utility vs blockers and vs decks like Doomsday, its an automatic 4 of.
Simic Dressnought 2.0
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Tropical Island
3-4 Wasteland
1-3 Urza's Saga
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Dress Down
4 Stifle
4 Slip Out the Back
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Mishra's Bauble
3-4 Flex Slots (Ice-Fang Coatl? Urza’s Saga tutor package? Murktide Regent? Sylvan Library? Brazen Borrower? Force of Negation? Tarmogoyf?)
I expect to see the above list in the next 5-0 deck dump.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
How does
Slip Out the Back interact with Uro/Kroxa/Hunted Horror?
Because both Dress Down and Stifle interact beautifully with those cards.
Phased out means you can't sacrifice them. So good with the Titans because you still get the etb triggers.
For the same reason bad with the hunted cycle.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
Yes this is what I'm trying to build, but I don't think you need slip out the back.
I instead went with endurance, ledger shredder, and soon: sailor's bane. I might try one or two Ambitious dragonborn but it's looking too pricey at 4.
I like bane over murktide because it plays better with uro and has ward. (Murktide, of course, is cheaper and flies)
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
I haven't played with the new cards yet but Endurance is indeed a great option for the flex slot. By moving my Endurances from my sideboard over to the maindeck, I free up 2 valuable slots in the board. Perhaps this...
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Dress Down
4 Stifle
4 Slip Out the Back
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Ice-Fang Coatl
2 Endurance
Or is it worth it to maindeck 2 Mishra's Baubles in order to play some Urza's Sagas?
Edit: After thinking about it, Sailors Bane seems like it could be amazing as 1-2 of.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
A petal and a retrofitter foundry.
Maybe even a wavesifter
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Bauble is a bad card, it is either all-in (Ancient Tomb) or the worst card in the deck (Delver, Shadow). If you are adding Saga, the card you are not trying to grab is Bauble, particularly for Murktide or Sailor's Bane. When you're not doing all-in stuff, the point of Bauble is to be a jank card to help with delirium...which you don't need. There is zero reason to run Bauble when Saga tutor suicide Nought is 1-card delirium.
Saga does not help Sailor's Bane get out quicker. With a god hand, a tuned legacy deck can cast it on turn 3...but realistically turn 4 is the best you can hope for (and this would be uncommonly ahead of schedule). You've also got this problem where Uro and Saga are not best friends...and you've got a problem b/c you can't afford to let Dress Down x4 rot in hand, unable to cast it b/c it will wipe your own constructs.
UG are the wrong colors for Sailor's Bane. You will quickly finding yourself chasing down really bad ideas like Saga -> Manifold Key. The way you play Sailor's Bane is 4x DRC and 2-3x Grim Lavamancer. Note how hitting 1-cmc that hard turns on Daze, note how Lavamancer clears the chump blockers away for a 7/7 on the ground, and note how much pressure you can exert on a life total (there's not a lot of time for the opponent to assemble paying for ward 4 and paying for a late game Daze).
Some things you need to answer before you consider things like Saga:
-what are you doing about Narset? This card is prevalent, and you can't go after it with DRC or Lavamancer or Red Blasts.
-what are you doing when you get Surgical'd? That's a lot of enablers (12) that don't do much by themselves.
-why are you rewarding opponents for playing Narset even harder with Ledger Shredder? You know all they have to do it cast 2 spells in your upkeep and you skip your draw step right? Same problems with Leovold, Hullyb, and Labyrinth. This is a lot of the legacy format doing this stuff.
-you at least got on-color and dropped the outlandish cost of the mana base by roughly 2/3, so now it's time to play Otawara.
Things that work with Saga:
1-Relic/Furnace/Soul-Guide/Nihil
2-Expedition Map
3-Currency Converter
Retro, Needle, [not-Nihil] Spellbomb are all obsolete. You can make a case for some of these SB, but Retro especially is a dead card. It is just so much worse than Currency Converter if you don't have thopter tribal synergies. Take that $25 you were going to blow on Retro and buy a playset of Currency Converter and don't look back.
