[Deck] Suicide Black

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The Engineered Plague thing is a guess that you aren't going to see as big of a Goblins decrease as you think. Plus, after testing, Plague is the difference between a highly favorable UBW Fish matchup and a slightly unfavorable one. Plague on Wizards is what convinced me to maindeck it over Therapy. Before, the build was the reverse. 3 Maindeck Therapies and 1 in board.

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Yeah, I would rather play therapies because of the number of creatures you have, but I guess if you can get 2x plagues out naming goblin/angel you can be safe from the flash match-up. But then again, its hard getting 2/3 plagues and they can just echoing truth you.

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Any reason you hate any of the cards you listed? Anurid's the best he's ever been as, like you said, there's going to be a decrease in goblins. Carnophage curves out beautifully in combination with a turn one Hymn or Shade or Anurid on a Ritual, and follows a Duress nicely if you get a Mox. The single Giant is drawbackless unless you anticipate everybody else running Leyline of the Void, in which case, cut it for something else. Akuba is fantastic against both combo and control and cuts down on the occasional problem of having more mana than you know what to do with.

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Yes, well:

Carnophage: I hate to run less than 4, and because your deck lacks removal, he becomes a wall that pings you for 1 per turn when your opponents have 3/3s and 4/4s etc. (Thats why if you ran therapy in conjunction with all of your black guys, it could be better)

Anurid: Meh, your running tons of creatures also. I guess his life loss isn't game breaking most of the time.

Wicked Akuba: The main deal is your not playing removal, which means he is just a bear. Of course, if you played things like diabolic etc, he would be much better. I like drekavac or Nakaya shade better here. (Nakaya is 1 power less than nantuko, but that part is pretty negligent) Or how about slithering shade?! Slither is very good with drekavac, gathan etc. Yes, and I was talking about a leyline or mox you draw into that becomes useless.

Anyways, I would love to see the "hellbent" version of the deck. Anurid can be replaced with Drekavac, and maybe we'll even see slithering shade in action lol.

I think we'll go back to Therapy after the GP, assuming Goblins completely bombs out. We just kind of guessed Goblins would still be there in force and the plagues might be necessary.

The hellbent version is much more fun, heh. Gathan Raiders and Drekavac are in force, and we're trying Putrid Cyclops out currently, but not sure about him.

Ok, Blackguard, first of all I never said Red Death was inferior. I merely said that I prefer Suicide Black and that there were certain aspects of Red Death that I don't care for, so stop putting words in my mouth. Secondly, I mainly posted that because I'm sick of seeing posts about Red Death in the Suicide thread since there is NO POINT. They are significantly different decks, as you've already pointed out and there is no reason to post about them here. In regards to what you were saying, I'll concur that Pithing Needle is probably not as significant and that you can play around the whole nonbasic issue. Secondly, you're telling me that you want to rely on a single sideboard card to fix all your problems with the creatures that Bolt and Chain Lightning are supposed to remove. I don't see how you think 4 copies of Dystopia can really stop 4 Werebear and 4 Mongoose, especially when they run how many counterspells? I also find it amusing that you just recommended on the Red Death board that they put Diabolic Edict maindecked to deal with threats that you admitted could not be dealt with using the removal currently in the deck. As far as the whole bit about Chalice, it doesn't hurt Suicide very much at all considering the only cards you deny yourself are Dark Rit and Duress and generally the 1 point Chalice you're resolving more than makes up for your lack of Duress. On the other hand, Red Death loses Chain Lit, Lit Bolt, Seal of Fire, Dark Rit (If they run it still), and Duress. Given this, I'd say they are much more significantly disadvantaged since a 1 point Chalice effectively removes all your removal spells plus your added reach. Honestly I don't really care anymore since it seemed that people were trying to remove the entire disruption base from Red Death that was handed down by Suicide, effectively breaking any ties between the two decks. My recommendation: stick with Red Death if you like it so much and I'll stick to Suicide Black.

Have any of you considered using skittering skirge over that lone wretched anurid spot? Skirge won't give you life loss with Empty the Warrens and would even provide a 3 power flying attacker for you.

The downside is of course you can never really play him second turn if you have another threat in hand. But, with the high density of two-drops in the deck, this shouldn't be that much of a problem. You could cast Nantuko Shade, Rotting Giant, Hymn to tourach second turn then follow up with a third turn Skirge. Or first turn ritual, Negator then second turn Skirge. Both instances would give you fast clocks. Thus, there would be no need to cast additional threats after skirge at least until your initial attackers are removed.

Lastly, I think an adoption of maindeck duresses, hymns (which the deck already does) and Leylines of the Void will be the way to go if we even want a chance against hulk flash.

I believe a retraction is in order for what i said about negator. I have tested it briefly on MWS and its fucking nuts. It has replaced the tempo parasite shade in my build, and i cant honestly see me ever playing sui again without it... so to blackguard, anwar, Khurtz... you were right and i was wrong.

I also tested red death... but i did not like it. 4 diabolic and 3 ghastly demise works perfectly for me. Im not saying that red death is inferior to sui black, im just saying i did not like it.

Here is the list ive been testing and im pretty satisfied with it.

17 swamp
3 wasteland

4 carnophage
4 sarcomancy
4 hippie
3 Negator

4 Hymn to tourach
4 diabolic edict
3 duress
3 sinkhole
3 ghastly demise

4 Dark rit

Sideboard:
4 E plauge
3 null rod
3/4 planar void/leyline
2/3 contaigon
1/3 dystopia

First off if you have not tested zombies, i strongly suggest you do. It wrecks goblins by stopping lackey and trading with piledriver. Against fish it keeps them from attacking with everything but avenger / creatures pro mom but then you snipe them with edict and demise. There just average against thresh because once they have thresh or tarmogyf there useless.

Im not so sure about dystopia... It seems like its only good against thresh, but that may be enough because thresh is a pretty bad matchup.

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Originally Posted by blackguard90

Is this a budget issue? When there is a sui black T8 in the next major tournament, i'll consider your claim that RD is inferior.

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Oh and there is a sui black deck in top 8 of the Grand prix... 900 people in attendance i believe, and he has a good matchup for chance at top 4. Now consider

I can understand...sort of...why you wouldn't run 4 Duress maindeck (expecting goblins?) but why you would hamstring yourself by not having access to the fourth post-board I cannot explain.

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Originally Posted by MattH

I can understand...sort of...why you wouldn't run 4 Duress maindeck (expecting goblins?) but why you would hamstring yourself by not having access to the fourth post-board I cannot explain.

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I wouldnt know where to put it. I could run 2 dystopia and 1 duress, but im not realy sure. If i did that my sideboard would be this

4 E plauge
3 null rod
3 planar void
2 contaigon
2 dystopia
1 duress

Here is Bill Starks list that T8ed the GP:

Main Deck
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Carnophage
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Sarcomancy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual

SB
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Engineered Plague

With 8 leyline, I hope he plays Flash.

The fourth Wasteland is probably better than the third Sinkhole, and the fourth Duress is probably better than a Null Rod.

Ok so bill got top 4 out of a 900 person field... can people finally stop putting down sui black, i believe it has proven its viability.

I dont know if i like waste over sink... waste costs a land drop, sink costs using 2 mana. Also i like null rod because its good against combo and affinity. Dystopia has proven less useful.

While I absolutely love just about any variation of mono-black. I can't agree with you technogeek. Bill's version is well tuned and an excellent meta-game choice for this GP. If this meta continues to exist then perhaps it will be a viable top tier deck. However, I think when most people put mono-black aggro down (damn their callous souls), they were referring to a meta that wasn't defined by hulk flash, where nearly every deck packs sideboarded leylines and looks like a quirky variation of fish (I exaggerate, but I think you get the point). I for one, will be surprised if something isn't done about flash come June 1st. At that time I heavily doubt the viability of MBA being anything more than a tier 2 deck, even if it is finely tuned and piloted a skilled player.

As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards. I used to run very similar version of the deck, and I found the threats that he is running to be suboptomal since they were too fragile.

However, since red is played less and black white is played more, it might not be a bad idea to play the deck in the current meta.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards. I used to run very similar version of the deck, and I found the threats that he is running to be suboptomal since they were too fragile.

However, since red is played less and black white is played more, it might not be a bad idea to play the deck in the current meta.

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Well his creature base/ control package was designed to deal with the flash meta... when flash is banned, we can all go back to playing confidants and negators.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

As a follower of the arctype, I'm really exited about Stark's T8. However, I get the feeling that his skills and luck in pairing helped him on the T8. His creature base dies to Clasm and Fire, and he has no ability to get rid of problem cards.

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I've been testing this build a lot lately, and Unmask does wonders here. Plus, against very few decks do you need to ever put out more than 1-2 threats.

And while, yes, you may die to Pyroclasm, Pyroclasm isn't viable in a format with Flash. Also, don't forget, it's not that hard to open with Swamp, Unmask, Sarco/Carno, and follow it next turn with Swamp, Ritual, Jitte, Equip, Swing. Now you're out of Pyroclasm and red removal range.

This build was well thought out and a fantastic choice. It anticipated a large field of Flash and Fish decks packing White and thereby relying very heavily on Swords to Plowshares as its sole removal piece. It also was well equipped to handle goblins with 4 Plagues, 4 Jittes, Unmask, and 8 1-drops that handle a Lackey barring Pyrokinesis or double Fanatic.

It's also worth noting that the build can function entirely on two Swamps, but is capable of functioning well if it draws a flood of them due to having 12 pumpers. This deck was built to avoid mana screw over a long series of matches, which was the smart thing to do at a tournament this size.

As for getting rid of problem cards, since when has Suicide Black -ever- been able to get rid of problem cards? Outside of like, you know, Dystopia. Suicide Black is a deck that makes as many other decks as possible have answers to what it packs, not the reverse, and this is no exception.

Bill Stark is actually making use of a very old Hatred-Suicide Black creature shell. The deck ran 8 one cc zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy), 8 two cc shadow creatures (dauthi slayer and dauthi horror) and 4 copies of Phyrexian Negator. The deck also ran duress and unmask.

The shadow creatures are easily replaced by the pump knights in Bill Stark's deck. Pump Knights have powerful evasion similar to shadow in the form of flying and prot from white and are actually better than said shadow creatures as pump knights can easily end the game with enough mana.

Nantuko Shade replaces Phyrexian Negator. That being said, isn't Bill Stark using too many pump knights? Between Nantuko Shade and 8 Pump Knights, that's certainly a lot of creatures to funnel your mana into.

I'm thinking dropping Nantuko Shade for Phyrexian Negator. This will probably make the deck worse but then again, it will make the deck less reliant on getting to critical mana. It will also allow you to deal a lot of damage even when your mana screwed. Plus first turn Unmask-Swamp-Ritual-Negator is gg.:smile:

I was thinking about some changes to Stark's build earlier tonight, and there are a couple of things I'd really like to see:

1. The aforementioned Negators. Especially with Flash in the format, a quick finisher seems like a real plus. I'm not sure I'd replace Shades with them though. Shades cost half as much to pump as all the other pump creatures, and that translates directly to a faster clock. I think I'd be inclined to replace either the Crusaders or the Orders with them. The Crusaders have nice evasion, and can provide chump blockers for opposing fliers, which is nice. Order's sirst strike has some very solid synergy with Jitte though, so it's a tough call.

Negators also have fantastic synergy with Sarcomancy, since it provides 2 saccable permanents for one black. You up the curve a bit by adding Negators though. I'd be inclined to drop one of the Jittes for another black producer (either a basic Swamp or a Tomb of Urami). This would increase overall mana production consistency as well as giving you more permanents to sac to Negator and more fuel for your pump creatures. 4 Jittes seems like overkill considering how awful they are in multiples, and how badly a single Pithing Needle can affect your draws.

2. Cabal Therapy. It absolutely belongs in the deck. With 8 1cc chumps to sac, it's a very solid choice. More importantly, it has fantastic synergy with Unmask. Dropping a Swamp first turn, casting Unmask (protected from Daze, no less), and following up with a Therapy once you know what they've got is nothing short of fantastic. It has the added bonus of not being dead against Goblins like Duress is, and is also able to steal Hulks away from Flash combo.

I'm not decided whether they should replace Hymns or Duress. Duress is pretty terrible against Goblins, but it's great against combo. It also has synergy with Therapy. Hymn is straight up card advantage. It's a tough call, but I definitely think Therapy belongs in there somewhere.

Here is my take on Zilla's proposed changes:

1. I agree absolutely. Negators belong in the main. The question is whether you use it over pump knights or shades. I prefer using them over the shades as pump knights are an invaluable tool against white-based Fish decks and Threshold. You really need some form of evasion/prot from white in the deck to act as a hard remove threat against aforementioned decks. Against Flash though, Shade+Negator is much better.

Going down to three jittes is...interesting. I don't know, I really like the 4 jittes main. They make the aggro-control matchup that much better. Three might be the optimal number however. Tomb of Urami is also interesting and could be useful if the rest of your team gets destroyed. I'd also love to add in a copy of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in here over a swamp.

2. I disagree with Cabal Therapy. The deck really doesn't want to be sacrificing your creatures. This isn't the Rock where you can afford to sacrifice creatures to gain an advantage. You want to disrupt then end the game quickly with fast beats. The discard package is already pretty tight. Adding more or replacing existing components is subpar, IMO.

I'm with Zilla on Therapy. I really like it here. The question on what to replace is a difficult one though. I almost always lean to Hymn over duress, unless the deck can't support BB, but Duress makes Therapy even better, and frees up that 2cc spot for a creature drop, so I don't know...

I have to go against the majority here and recommend running Dark Confidant. If he catches a Bolt, I'm happy that didn't hit my 'gator. The same applies to blockers even when he doesn't trade - if you get to attack with him, he has at least replaced himself. One thing worth mentioning is that he makes your acceleration better - with 4 Rituals, 4 Moxes he truly shines.

I want every threat that costs more than 1 to be game-altering, be it through sheer power or abilities. Playable cards for which this applies include Nantuko Shade, Dark Confidant, Hypnotic Specter and Phyrexian Negator. Wicked Akuba and Flesh Reaver have the potential but aren't consistently good.

Re Pump Knights: What's the use of being unplowable when there are so many juicier targets for spot removal anyway? Stromgald Crusader has the benefit of keeping Mystic Enforcers and Exalted Angels at bay, but that's still pushing it. Otherwise, I think the Pump Knight inflation reflects a screwy metagame that will go away soon.
Generally I'd rather scream 'Answer this(,) Bitch!' once per turn until they run out of answers than having removal-proof creatures. Which shouldn't take long given that I'm ripping their hand to shreds.

Whether or not pump knights are the product of a screwy metagame and will go away in a month is a topic for another thread. What is relevant to this thread is that pump knights is good in the present metagame. The ability to evade stp and swing past meddling mages, serra avatars, mother of runes, etc is simply too good to pass up.

Like I said, I don't like Cabal Therapy here. It IS hard to cut cards for therapy as Stark's disruption suite is already pretty optimal.

The more I think about it, the more I like Negators here. I really need to fit them in somehow...

Dark Confidant is good, I agree. Just what do you cut? The zombies are valuable one drops, the pump knights and shades are fast clocks. You really don't want to cut disruption if you want to stand toe-to-toe with Flash. The Confidants, while good theoretically, would only dilute the deck as is.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

I was thinking about some changes to Stark's build earlier tonight, and there are a couple of things I'd really like to see:

1. The aforementioned Negators. Especially with Flash in the format, a quick finisher seems like a real plus. I'm not sure I'd replace Shades with them though. Shades cost half as much to pump as all the other pump creatures, and that translates directly to a faster clock. I think I'd be inclined to replace either the Crusaders or the Orders with them. The Crusaders have nice evasion, and can provide chump blockers for opposing fliers, which is nice. Order's sirst strike has some very solid synergy with Jitte though, so it's a tough call.

Negators also have fantastic synergy with Sarcomancy, since it provides 2 saccable permanents for one black. You up the curve a bit by adding Negators though. I'd be inclined to drop one of the Jittes for another black producer (either a basic Swamp or a Tomb of Urami). This would increase overall mana production consistency as well as giving you more permanents to sac to Negator and more fuel for your pump creatures. 4 Jittes seems like overkill considering how awful they are in multiples, and how badly a single Pithing Needle can affect your draws.

2. Cabal Therapy. It absolutely belongs in the deck. With 8 1cc chumps to sac, it's a very solid choice. More importantly, it has fantastic synergy with Unmask. Dropping a Swamp first turn, casting Unmask (protected from Daze, no less), and following up with a Therapy once you know what they've got is nothing short of fantastic. It has the added bonus of not being dead against Goblins like Duress is, and is also able to steal Hulks away from Flash combo.

I'm not decided whether they should replace Hymns or Duress. Duress is pretty terrible against Goblins, but it's great against combo. It also has synergy with Therapy. Hymn is straight up card advantage. It's a tough call, but I definitely think Therapy belongs in there somewhere.

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Didn't we establish a while ago that "Flying" was rediculously powerful in the format? Sure, First Strike is nice, but it's not providing evasion. Oh, and Hymn is definately cut if the decision is between Duress and Hymn, as Duress is too sick against combo to remove. Plus, Hymn is double black.

So, here's what we have now:

16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Tomb of Urami

4 Carnophage
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Sarcomancy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual

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Originally Posted by eternaldarkness

Like I said, I don't like Cabal Therapy here. It IS hard to cut cards for therapy as Stark's disruption suite is already pretty optimal.

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In this format? No. Pinpoint hand destruction is leaps and bounds stronger than Hymn against Flash, particularly when it costs 1 less and can net you the same kind of card advantage. It also has excellent synergy with a first turn Unmask. That it can be flashed back is just icing on the cake.

In a format where Flash isn't legal, Duress is subpar against Goblins, and Unmask is a questionable inclusion at all, so an argument could be made for Therapy in these slots for a Flashless metagame. We can wait until the first to discuss that.

I find that the real strength of cabal therapy is being able to turn extra creatures into disruption spells. If you already have a clock on the table and you need to keep disrupting something like flash you have that option with therapy in the yard. It's too powerful to not run.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

In this format? No. Pinpoint hand destruction is leaps and bounds stronger than Hymn against Flash, particularly when it costs 1 less and can net you the same kind of card advantage.

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You wouldn't believe the number of people I had to explain this to when they asked why I wasn't running Hymn, or why I was running Mesmeric Fiend.

Hymn is still gas against the fish decks though. All in all I should've just brought normal Sui, seeing as how 2 of my three losses were to the fish decks. Then when I was in the loss bracket I got paired against the rock, and that was that. Oh well, not the first time I've brought the wrong deck to a tournament. Such is life.



Getting back on topic: I feel the real strength of Cabal Therapy is to cast it after seeing their hand for card advantage off of their 2-ofs (notice 4x peek, 4x cabal therapy in Gadiels Hulk list. Freaking amazing list.)

There's also the ability to correctly guess their hand from information you've picked up while playing, you wouldn't beleive how many games I've won from reading my opponents correctly. "Let's see, he didn't flinch when nantuko shade hit play, so he isn't threatened by it despite its killing him in two turns. If he had spot removal he would've used it on my wretch 6 life points ago, and if he'd had countermagic he would've countered the shade. Cabal therapy naming wrath of god?" -opponent curses and discards double wrath.

Hey guys and gals-

This is Bill Stark, from the top 8 at ole' GP Columbus. I'm actually the editor for the Magic Webzine Londes.com and my tournament report from the event is published there. I thought I would link to it from here in case anyone is interested in reading how the tournament went from a first hand retelling.

Part 1: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1325
Part 2: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1327

There will be a how-to guide on the deck published next week; I would encourage anyone interested in why I played the deck and picked the cards that were in it to check that out.

Also, if you would like to get a hold of me for some reason, try using my email instead of PMing me here.

Thanks,
Bill Stark
editor, Londes.com
billtriesagain@hotmail.com

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Originally Posted by Bill Stark

Hey guys and gals-

This is Bill Stark, from the top 8 at ole' GP Columbus. I'm actually the editor for the Magic Webzine Londes.com and my tournament report from the event is published there. I thought I would link to it from here in case anyone is interested in reading how the tournament went from a first hand retelling.

Part 1: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1325
Part 2: http://londes.com/index.php?id=1327

There will be a how-to guide on the deck published next week; I would encourage anyone interested in why I played the deck and picked the cards that were in it to check that out.

Also, if you would like to get a hold of me for some reason, try using my email instead of PMing me here.

Thanks,
Bill Stark
editor, Londes.com
billtriesagain@hotmail.com

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I almost played suicide black if I could get a set of Unmasks, but man oh man I was so psyched to see two black based aggro decks in the top 8. Props to you.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

In this format? No. Pinpoint hand destruction is leaps and bounds stronger than Hymn against Flash, particularly when it costs 1 less and can net you the same kind of card advantage. It also has excellent synergy with a first turn Unmask. That it can be flashed back is just icing on the cake.

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Note though that Hymn can just wreck players who mulligan aggressively. Hymn is also fantastic against the rest of the field randomly mana screwing Fish decks or taking out their business cards.

I played a few games with MBA and found that Shades are still invaluable. 8 pro-white knights are overkill if your already using Negators and Shades. Pump knights are however subpar without Flash in the meta so I'll probably cut them for the traditional 3 Rotting Giant + Wretched Anurid creature base (plus the added zombies are synergistic with sarcomancies:smile: )

Thus my only change in Bill Stark's list is to cut four pump knights for Negators and so far I've loved it. Oh and I cut the serum powders in the side for dystopias (threshold is really rampant in my area) and pithing needles.

Personally, my approach would be Anwar's creature base to the deck. I'd probably do the following changes

-8 Pump knights
-8 Black one-drops
-7 Swamp
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
(-4 Hymn to Tourach)

for

+8 Black Fetches
+3 Rotting Giant
+1 Wretchede Anurid
+4 Phyrexian Negator
+4 Hypnotic Specter <= Better than I thought against Flash
+4 Extirpate/Cabal Therapy
(+4 Cabal Therapy/Extirpate)

it seems like the black deck by Belfatto (sp) was really really subpar. Cards like blind creeper, plague sliver, contagion and WTF is with the underground sea? I agree with the suggestions by Anti-American above, I rather play a 4th giant or make room for confidant though.

But, another thing to point out is that the suicide black by Stark had no removal or reach. And this is where I can see why he plays the jump/first strike knights. The pro white is quite important IMO if you are not running removal like swords, edict, bolt etc. Otherwise, I think he would die to fish.

I don't think that Plague Sliver was a horrible call at all, though I'm somewhat suspect of the rest of Mike's creature base. However, despite my doubts, it worked for him and got him into the top 8, right?

On Plague Sliver, I believe this was a prime metagame call in the fact that with Flash present, Meathooks (I actually like that name more than countersliver, despite it being silly) was a metagame possibility as it ran disruption and a potentially quick clock. Plague Sliver is obviously a great answer to that. Narrow you say? Well even without your opponent playing slivers, it's still a Juzam.

Goblins have trouble coping, MeatHooks takes a lot of pain from it, it's bigger than Thresh's creatures, it's a large threat that's rough for control decks, and even at 4 mana, with disruption it comes down relatively early enough to put a serious threat on the table against flash. I really don't think it was a bad call at all.

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Originally Posted by blackguard90

it seems like the black deck by Belfatto (sp) was really really subpar. Cards like blind creeper, plague sliver, contagion and WTF is with the underground sea? I agree with the suggestions by Anti-American above, I rather play a 4th giant or make room for confidant though.

But, another thing to point out is that the suicide black by Stark had no removal or reach. And this is where I can see why he plays the jump/first strike knights. The pro white is quite important IMO if you are not running removal like swords, edict, bolt etc. Otherwise, I think he would die to fish.

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He did make it into a Top 8 with a 883 person field. I think that should say something about the deck he played and his skill level. It was obviously a good deck for the Columbus metagame. Trashing the deck just because you don't like a few of his cards is not fair to him and the Legacy community in general.

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Originally Posted by eternaldarkness

Note though that Hymn can just wreck players who mulligan aggressively. Hymn is also fantastic against the rest of the field randomly mana screwing Fish decks or taking out their business cards.

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You'll get no argument from me that Hymn is fantastic. It's a great card. It's just worse than Therapy in a metagame where Flash is legal. Having tested and developed Flash a great deal before the GP, I can tell you from personal experience that I feared Therapy far more than Hymn. Therapy can hit me first turn, it can completely destroy my hand on the first turn in conjunction with Unmask, and it can come back and steal any remaining relevant cards by flashing back a creature. It is much, much harder to play through than Hymn for these reasons.

You stated earlier you didn't want to discuss what might or might not happen on the first if Flash gets banned, but since you seem to have changed your mind, I'll make it simple: if Flash isn't legal, the deck doesn't need Unmask. Check Stark's tournament report, and you'll see that he sided out Unmask in more than half his matchups. This is because the card disadvantage simply doesn't outweigh the speed when you're not trying to beat Flash. So if Flash is banned, simply replace Unmask with Therapy.

Why not replace unmask with Bob? Seems to fit into this deck quite well, especially since the mana curve is low. Is that 3rd discard spell better than simply drawing more? BTW, I apologize if this is a stupid question/suggestion, I am not very familiar with sui black at all.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

Why not replace unmask with Bob? Seems to fit into this deck quite well, especially since the mana curve is low. Is that 3rd discard spell better than simply drawing more? BTW, I apologize if this is a stupid question/suggestion, I am not very familiar with sui black at all.

Kronicler

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Against Flash, you want all the hand destruction you can get, especially because black's only other weapon against that deck is a bouncable enchantment. If anything, I'd drop one or another of the pump knights for Bob, probably Order of the Ebon Hand.

I was actually thinkin about this deck post-flash when I mentioned Bob. But will this deck even be viable post flash? Whatever, I'm still making it because owning people with what appears to be "black weenie" just seems so bad ass.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

He did make it into a Top 8 with a 883 person field. I think that should say something about the deck he played and his skill level. It was obviously a good deck for the Columbus metagame. Trashing the deck just because you don't like a few of his cards is not fair to him and the Legacy community in general.

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wow, you are one of the most narrow-minded and stupid people I have ever talked to.
Warned for flaming. - Zilla

His deck is very much subpar and you know it. FUCKING 4 dark confidants with contagions and plague slivers? Underground sea for no reason, and most of all BLIND CREEPER? I seriously don't see how he did so well with a deck like that, so I must concede to both facts that:

a) He was lucky
b) He had good playskill

Now another thing: This guy ran 4x turn 1 plays not counting contagion. He must have been very lucky because turn 1 duress usually only stop flash for 1-2 turns. His sideboard is a lot more geared to beat combo and goblins, but he must have lost a lot of game 1s against combo cause honestly, I think his deck totally sucked.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

You'll get no argument from me that Hymn is fantastic. It's a great card. It's just worse than Therapy in a metagame where Flash is legal. Having tested and developed Flash a great deal before the GP, I can tell you from personal experience that I feared Therapy far more than Hymn. Therapy can hit me first turn, it can completely destroy my hand on the first turn in conjunction with Unmask, and it can come back and steal any remaining relevant cards by flashing back a creature. It is much, much harder to play through than Hymn for these reasons.

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The fact that a great card like Hymn to Tourach is simply unplayable because of Flash makes a good case for Flash's superiority over all other combo decks. Hymn to Tourach is a great card against most Legacy combo and the fact that its virtually unplayable should tell you something about Flash. By way of comparison, Vintage combo decks are some of the strongest combo decks in existence and virtually no one plays Hymn to Tourach in that format.

I played Suicide Black at the GP and received 35th place. I am new to this forum and this is my first post, so I hope I follow all the rules.
Here is the deck list:

17x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

4x Dark Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Black Knight
4x Hypnotic Specter
1x Rotting Giant

4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
3x Smother
2x Engineered Plague

SB:
2x Engineered Plague
3x Jitte
1x Contagion
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Phyrexian Negator

I chose suicide black because I have been playing the deck for many years and I figured the disruption suite would help against flash. This GP was actually my first large tournament, the next largest being a 22 man coldsnap release sealed event.

On card choices:
The deck may seem like it runs too many lands, and it may. But I prefer to be mana flooded instead of mana screwed.
The Urborg was here so wastelands can tap for B, this helped many times in casting all the BB spells and in pumping shades
The land disruption suite was great against all the flash decks and fish decks, often my opponents would just get mana screwed and this is the nail in the coffin.
The black knights were a house against all the white fish decks i ran into and it singlehandedly won me several games.
I chose Smothers over edicts because smother is preferable in the goblins matchup.
The plagues were useful against many decks; naming clerics against mother of runes, wizard against grim lavamancers, zombie against flash, and goblins.
Cabal Therapy didn't do so well for me, possibly due to my limited play time with it and inexperience.
I only had 3 Leylines, which explains that number.

The tournament:
First round I went 2-1 against some control deck that runs Isochron Scepters with raise the alarm and goblin bombardment. Engineered plague on soldiers worked well. (1-0)
Secound round I went 2-1 against a reanimator deck that used buried alives to throw 2x Krosan Cloudscaper and 1x Sutured ghoul into the yard then shallow graved it back. The leylines wrecked it post board. (2-0)
Third round was against a goblin deck. I don't remember this match much but went 2-1. (3-0)
Fourth round was agaisnt Ervin Tormos and a deck that looked like Hannifish. Black Knight worked wonders in dodging swords and blockers and got really scary once it had a Jitte. At one point, he had a cursed scroll and veldaken shackles on the board with 4 island. I just had to wait him out until I drew enough swamps for nantuko shade to go the distance. The match was a nailbiter and several topdecked hypnotic specters helped the win for another 2-1 match. (4-0)
Round 5 was played against a flash deck, I don't rememeber much but went 2-0. (5-0)
In round 6, i got paired against another neophyte playing burn. After stomping him game 1, games 2 and 3 went sour for a 1-2 match. (5-1)
For the 7th round, I got the mirror matchup against Belfatto. He didn't see any of his swords and a lot of good luck on my part (pulled two jittes game 3 off of bob) and bad luck on his part (taking 5 from contagion off dark confidant) sealed it with 2-1. (6-1)
Eighth round was against a goblin deck piloted by Kenta Hikori. I kept a mediocre hand with dark confidant as my only creature. Mogg fanatic kept bob off the table and he stomped me for an 0-2. (6-2)
The last round of day 1 was against a gro deck piloted by Julian Levin. He kept a one land hand game 1 and sinkhole sealed the deal. Game 2 he managed to get out two dryads but my hippies flew over them and black knight with jitte is a force to be reckoned with. (7-2)
Day 2:
My first matchup was against Erich Kunz who was playing an angel stompy variant that splashed blue for meddling mage and had enlightened tutors as a toolbox. Black Knight singlehandedly won me this matchup in 2-1. (8-2)
The second match of the day waas against Noah Long playing flash. All the flash matches blended together but I lost 1-2. (8-3)
Round 12 was against Nick Eisel playing vault flash. His deck was not cooperating with his wishes (he drew 2 walls and a disciple game 1) and I won 2-0. (9-3)
The next matchup was against W/u fish and again the black knight's pro-white and hypnotic specter's wings earned me a 2-1 victory. (10-3)
Round 14 was against a red fish deck played by Tim Galbiati. Now in Mr. Stark's article posted before, he said red fish vs. sui black is no good. I agree with that. He was on the play and went turn 1 mogg fanatic (my only creature was confidant) and turn 2 cloud of faeries and grim lavamancer, he dominated me 0-2. (10-4)
The last round was against Ewokslayer playing flash. He was on the play and mulliganed down to 4! However my near god hand containing 2x dark ritual, hypnotic specter, dark confidant, duress, and hymn only had wasteland for mana. I ended up mulliganing to 5 and he managed to play tight and topdeck to victory. The following two games were rife with my leylines and land destruction and i won 2-1. (11-4)

I would say that suicide black was a great choice in the flash-fish metagame I saw. It has the tools to beat randomness and the disruption to screw anyone over. In hindsight, I should have found room for cursed scroll and unmask but I forgot about those two.

Belfatto seemed to like playing the sea to trick his opponents into thinking he was playing flash; it worked against me game 1.
Hymn to Tourach was great at slowing down flash and generally ruining many decks. Often it would get a land and sinkhole and wasteland did the rest.

Yay sui black... Boo less then 4 leylines in the sideboard. I also dont see why you would run maindeck plauges in a flash metagame. But congrats nonetheless.

With some recent testing, I found out that burn is not unwinnable (MWS is crawling with the deck). I went 4-2 in 2 games and all my wins were with negator. I only sided out 1 for a duress and it worked perfectly. Negator is good against burn late game... because they will be low on life and negator ties things up quickly. During the late game, they will be low on spells and you will have more permanents (Sarcomancy is golden here). Negator costed me a average of 3 perms per game but that didnt matter because i had a great amount of lands and drew into a steady stream of creatures.

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Originally Posted by technogeek5000

With some recent testing, I found out that burn is not unwinnable (MWS is crawling with the deck). I went 4-2 in 2 games and all my wins were with negator. I only sided out 1 for a duress and it worked perfectly. Negator is good against burn late game... because they will be low on life and negator ties things up quickly. During the late game, they will be low on spells and you will have more permanents (Sarcomancy is golden here). Negator costed me a average of 3 perms per game but that didnt matter because i had a great amount of lands and drew into a steady stream of creatures.

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yep, I always slow roll my gators against burn. I play tons of disruption first, then rotting giants, hippies, shades first. I found that all my creatures were threats to burn and they had to eliminate them.

Also, lets talk about the metagame for legacy post FS. It seems that removal have been completely taken out for more disruption or leylines. Since removal is gone, Negator becomes somewhat "less effective" in early game. Builds that did well at the GP were running 1 cc zombies and Pro-white pump knights. While I hate those guys because of their hunger for mana and 1 toughness, I must say that they deal with big white creatures and swords very well in a fish/sliver environment.

It seems that the degeneracy of flash has really made the format like the standard of mirrodin where everyone was playing ravager affinity or something to beat it. I have been working on a post FS version of B/R suicide that uses drekavac, gathan raiders etc to replace negator (I love this card to death, but he isn't as good as he is in the original B/R) jump knights etc. The deck is only red for the sake of Gathan, so it should have a very similar shell as suicide.

BTW, does anyone have a suggested list for post-FS legacy?