[Deck] Belcher

I went to a little tourney nearby my hometown.
4 Rounds matchrecord 3-1.

The list I ran:

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [GP] Wild Cantor
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

I am pretty happy with the current list. I have played and tested the deck since its earlier days without the boost of EtW.
I have done a lot of testing with different versions especially with Wraith but I found it to be inferior to Dark Ritual.
If you have any questions feel free to ask.

1. Round vs. TheRock with R-Splash for Pyroclasm

He won the die roll (which is really bad with this deck) but didnt to anyhing first round. I manged to get 10 Gobs into play. I could only attack once, because he dropped one of his sweepers (he had Deed, Pyroclasm and EE mainbord).

Second Game (no sideboarding by me) I killed him with an ETW for 12 gobs 1st round.

Third Game I kept a good hand with two win-conditions. Unfortunately my next two cards off of the top where Wish and another belcher. He made double Duress and eventually won.

2. Round vs. B/U-Control (I saw Hippie,Duress,Mana Leak,Hmyn to Tourach..)

He won the die roll and started with a first round hippie. Not bad.
I managed to drop a belcher 1st round along with Land Grant and Chrome Mox.My hand was emtpy and all I needed was another mana source.GG

Second Game (I sided swarms and Pyros) he got the nuts with first turn Duress and Hymn. I coudnt recover and he was able to play a specter. There was no way to win this game.

Third Game I was allowed to start and played a first turn belcher. He played a handdisruption spell and all I could do on my 2nd turn was playing a Xantid Swarm (in play: Bayou and belcher), no cards left in hand. He played a Specter. I drew Tinder Wall off the top attacked with Swarm and played the wall second mainphase leaving me with enough mana to kil him next turn and so I did (he told me, he had a Mana Leak in hand, so Xantid Swarm was pretty good here).

3. Round vs. Burn

I won the die roll (yeah) and kept a nice hand with a huge ETW. Too fast for him..

Second Game he started with Lava Spike. My first turn was pretty broken and I managed to put 16 Gobs into play. He played some burn next turn, so I attacked with my army. Third turn he manegd to play Flamebreak (leaving him at 1 life). I wasn't able to recover fast enough and so got killed by some Burn.

Third game I started and killed him with Belcher easily.

4. Round vs. Vial Goblins

Not much to tell. Two times I killed him via EtW first game and via belcher second game. He put down a pillar second game but I only took 6 damage and eventually belched him to death.

Basic SBing is to have up to 8 Blasts, 4 Blasts in the MD free up 4 slots in the SB, and from there 4 Shattering Spree to deal with Chalice of the Void on the draw. After that, all that I think the SB "needs" is Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns and Reverent Silence/Simplify. People who MD Blasts tend to fill in those slots with a lot of other Wish targets, but most of them tend to be superflous in actual game play.

I'm back to just the "CRET list" - Dark Ritual for Serum Powder and - Bayou for the missing Tinder Wall and it's just too consistent to give up on. I'll post the Belcher/b list I came up with in another thread, people are going to either love it or hate it after they see it.

I went to a little tournament in my town too. I played against quite a few control decks. I brought this deck to the tournament because no one will expect it. However, I ran to a few problems.

As for the decklist, the mainboard is the same as the one in SCG article.

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
2 Taiga
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Street Wraith
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
3 Pyroblast


My Sideboard isn't the same though.

1x Simplify
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Dimished Returns
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Duress
1x Cave-In
1x Infernal Tutor

4x Shattering Spree
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast

I often found that the black version increases my chances to have a fail activation because Bayou doesn't double the damage. The Wraith version seemed to fetch me the acceleration without having to need Dark Ritual as more accleration.


Record 3-2

Details of Rounds in spoiler

Round 1 -> Complete goldfish

Round 2 -> U/G Madness, no FoW
Complete goldfish

Round 3 -> W/U Control
G1: Lost to game error. (Forgot to fix my SB)
G2: Won in 3rd turn with Belcher, no problems, He didn't SB

G3: This is the part I have problems with. He managed to get Chill in turn 2 play, and I couldn't really get out of it. My blasts were just sitting in my hand, and having only enough mana to blast every other turn wasn't fast enough before I died to 1/1 from decree.

Round 4 -> Deadguy Ale type deck
G1: 2nd Turn win

G2: His massive discard and later on chalice of the void for zero screwed me over really badly. I just couldn't get back into the game.

G3: It was the same as Game 2. However, this time, I won the game because I threw down my LEDs and artifact acceleration in play, and wished for diminishing returns for 24 goblins.

I really think that Diminishing Returns is a good wish target for this deck. Might need more testing though. =/

Round 5 -> Monoblue Control
G1: Winning with 6 goblins that was put down on turn one...

G2: This was one of those wierd games. This was my hand:

Red Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, 3x Rite of Flames, Belcher, and 2x Land grant.
(I drew a Red Spirit Guide during my first turn since I played first)

He went first, and played island. I tried going off, thinking I had backup, only to find that he brainstormed into his 2nd FoW. -_-

Later on, he managed to play Chill when I had no blast in my hand. I couldn't get around it until very later with wishing for Simiplify.

I managed to EtW with 4 storm and then EtW with 5 storm. Before I could attack, he played Leyline of Singularity, and another Chill.

G3: I managed to get Belcher out for a very long time, but no mana to activated it immediately. After I got Belcher out, he played Chill. I tried to activate it 5 times. 4 times, I was Trickbinded, and 5th time was a failed activation, and I died to a Morphling.

The main point was that this deck seem to have alot of trouble fightning against Chill and Leyline of the Void.

Are there better ways for Belcher to fight against problematic enchantments? Would sideboarding Krosan Grip be a good idea or a bad idea?

Even with 11 "win" conditions, I feel that there isn't enough ways to win. Somehow, I want to stick like 1 copy of Tendrils in SB or Mainboard and/or put Infernal Tutors.

Assuming 8 Blasts, Simian Spirit Guide has a chance to counter the Chill on the opponent's turn, but I don't see how the opponent can cast Chill before you win unless your are Time Walking him into his turn with Tinder Wall (and even then you can sacrifice Tinder Wall for RR to counter the Chill).

I've seen Leyline of Singularity and Chill used in AfFOWnity, where both of the cards are sensible because Leyline of Singularity cheats AfFOWnity's blue count and Chill can be accelerated, and there I ended up trying 4 Referent Silence in the board for AfFOWnity and Enchantress.

Leyline of Singularity is garbage, if your opponent plays Leyling of Singularity then you can either go for Diminishing Returns or just use one of the 8 Blasts to remove it. You would have lost to any removal spell in that position, so it really wasn't Leyline of Singularity that you lost to.

If you feel threat light, it's because the deck mulligans with out a win condition every 5 hands. I strongly recommend Serum Powder because of this.

Am I correct in assuming that this decks has been pretty much optimized? It's been two weeks since the last post in this thread although many other threads seem to have marked this deck as a weapon of the apocalypse. The roiginal seems to still be the strongest.

MB
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

SB
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 ???
1 ???

The only thing in question seems to be the last two slots in the sideboard. These last two slots seem to be metagame slots. Arguments have being made for:

Cabal Therapy
Duress
Goblin War Strike
Grapeshot
Hull Breach
Regrowth
Tendrils of Agony

hi, I was just wondering what the cret in cret belcher stands for?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebadmagicplayer

hi, I was just wondering what the cret in cret belcher stands for?

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CRET is the name of the team which introduced this deck list I believe. A few people from Team CRET ran it at some tourney and all of them did really well with it I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TestMonkey

SB
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 ???
1 ???

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In regards to your SB, why run both Pyroclasm AND Cave-In? To start, you will rarely find yourself Wishing for either Pyroclasm or Cave-In, and I see almost no occassions will you will B-Wish for both of them in the same game. I think Cave-In is truely better because you can RFG a red card rather than have to pay two mana that you might be short on. I suggest you take out the Pyroclasm and replace it with a 5th blast, and then run Regrowth and Tendrils of Agony as your last two wish spots. I questioned Tendrils at first, but after an explanation, it really makes sense to be in there just in case.

I think CRET stands for Charles' Rear Entry, part Two or something like that, but yeah its based on Team CRET who first did well with the deck.

My sideboard is the following, I made more room in it by MDing 4 Pyroblast over Cantors:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Simplify
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
4 Shattering Spree
1 Cave-In
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Hull Breach

I'm not really seeing the point of Regrowth or Tendrils in the board, especially since I've cut black from the deck but maybe if I was running black I'd run a Tendrils.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

I'm not really seeing the point of Regrowth or Tendrils in the board, especially since I've cut black from the deck but maybe if I was running black I'd run a Tendrils.

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I don't run black either. Bayou is pretty damn awful. If I were to even run two lands, it would be two Taigas. Anyways, Tendrils is still O.K. in the board even with no maindeck Bayou or Dark Rit. Generally speaking, you are never going to cast Tendrils without the use of LED anyways, so getting BB shouldn't be too hard tough of a feat. I also didn't like Tendrils at first, but Ewokslayer explained to me it is a Wish target for after they deal with an initial ETW onslaught. If you bash them for a bunch then they wipe the board, then Tendrils can serve as a nice mid-game finisher. If they can survive one wave of Goblins, chances are they will be able to withstand another one some turns later.

I agree on Bayou/black, if I ran another land I'd run a 2nd Taiga, Bayou for the loss. I like the option of Diminishing Returns SB when you have an LED, usually itll let you get another Belcher/ETW but I can see where wishing for a lethal Tendrils would be better than risking it on 7 random cards, esp. if theres a Plague on the table and ETW would be no good. I'll try one in place of either Duress, Hull Breach, or a REB.

i'm thinking of picking this deck up for competitive play. can one of you explain why some of the wish targets like duress are in the sb. also when do you side in shattering spree, what do you take out for them, and what do you ageinst decks like stax, aluren, the mirror, land still, hanni fish, and fairy stompy?

the list I plan to run is a one land varient of G/R cret belcher. any info on your side board choices will be helpfull since i don't know what about a third of it is doing there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebadmagicplayer

i'm thinking of picking this deck up for competitive play. can one of you explain why some of the wish targets like duress are in the sb. also when do you side in shattering spree, what do you take out for them, and what do you ageinst decks like stax, aluren, the mirror, land still, hanni fish, and fairy stompy?

the list I plan to run is a one land varient of G/R cret belcher. any info on your side board choices will be helpfull since i don't know what about a third of it is doing there

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Shattering Spree is there to take out decks that run Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, maybe Null Rod?? etc. Pretty much any pesky artifact that gets in the way of you comboing out are the targets for Shattering Spree. I board out 1x Street Wraith, 1x Wild Cantor, and 1x Tinderwall usually for the 3x Shattering Spree. You want to leave one in teh board so you can Burning Wish for one if you need it. In the mirror, my suggestion would be to win the die roll and try to go with the Belcher kill if you have the option. ETW can sometimes be bad in the mirror, as your opponent just either Belcher you out, or Burning Wishes for Cave-in and then wipes the board and combo's out next turn.

I'll now try to explain some SB choices.

*Empty the Warrens= DUH. It makes Burning Wish a win condition
*Shattering Spree= Read^
*Infernal Tutor= A nice wish target when you have excessive mana and you can abuse Hellbent with LED.
*Simplify= Gets rid of Engineered Plague and random other stupid annoying enchantments that may piss you off.
*Cave-In= Deals with Meddling Mage and opposing Goblin Tokens
*4x Pyroblast/1x REB= Relevant cards against your toughest matchups
*Tendrils of Agony= A nice mid-game Wish target after your opponent survives an initial onslaught of Goblins.
*Regrowth= Helps recover and setup for a second Combo attempt


That is my board, but some people like Goblin War Strike which speeds up the kill by a turn. Some also use Storm Entity, which I am not that fond of. It really varies. Hope I could be of help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebadmagicplayer

any info on your side board choices will be helpfull since i don't know what about a third of it is doing there

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Here are explanations of my current SB (4 Pyroblast MD):

1 Empty the Warrens - Win Con, needs to be here
1 Infernal Tutor - ups storm count if you have extra mana or helps you turn a Burning Wish into a Belcher if you have a LOT of extra mana (2 LEDs)
1 Simplify - kills a random E. Plague/Confinement/watever
1 Tendrils of Agony - Mid game kill spell if your horde of goblins is stopped
1 Pyroclasm - sweeper for gobs/ETW if you have spare mana
4 Shattering Spree - simply amazing, kills chalice, 3sphere, sphere of resistance, needle, cant be countered by chalice or otherwise if replicated
1 Cave-In - sweeper for gobs/ETW if you dont have spare mana
1 Diminishing Returns - helps build towards a 20+ goblin ETW or get to a Belcher if you are in the face of hate
2 Red Elemental Blast - vs. counters (in addition to 4 Pyroblast MD)
1 Goblin War Strike - helps ETW kill a turn faster if you have an extra wish and mana, can beat the hate by a turn sometimes
1 Hull Breach - if you have to kill an enchantment and they have more than 1 (AKA Simplify wont work), or if there is an artifact AND enchantment in your way.

I usually SB out 3 Pyroblasts for 3 Shattering Spree (leaving one in the board to wish for) if I'm playing against non-blue and artifacts, I would probably side out 4 Seething Song 1 Tinder Wall for 3 Shattering Spree 2 REB if I was against blue and artifacts, the rest is the wishboard.

First of all, sorry for my bad english.

I´m building an CRET belcher deck so i am looking through many forums for informations. I only goldfished with my deck so i have no experience with any matchups. Because of this point i´m very unsure with the sidebord. My actually question ist, why using REBs/Pyroblasts over Duress (when B is played)? I read somthing about using simian spirit guide to counter but i don´t think that i can trust to have both cards in hand when needed. Also i think it´s bad to need one mana more in the comboturn. Duress can be played a turn before so the mana dosen´t care. Ok, this is a lost of a turn, but i can still cast it in the comboturn to have the same effekt then REB. The only thing that comes in my mind is the cost auf B. Is it the reason to play REB over Duress? Is the B the problem?

Sorry that i ask a so stupid questen. If i would test the deck in an tournament so i would know the anser, but i would like to be prepared befor the tournament, not after :smile:

Eeeeks... is this bad english... sorry again.

D-Bird

Duress costs a black, and doesn't answer Meddling Mage. Those are enough to make it suck. In a different deck/meta, it could be really really good.
-Slay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slay

Duress costs a black, and doesn't answer Meddling Mage. Those are enough to make it suck. In a different deck/meta, it could be really really good.
-Slay

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On the other hand, it takes Sandstorm, Pithing Needle, and Engineered Explosives, which Pyroclasm can't. Tough choice, really, and it ultimately comes down to which combo is most in need of protection. Perhaps Belcher, as you say, since it's harder to answer (especially without blue, or access to two free counters).

What about a single Trash for Treasure in the SB? It could be useful to recur a countered belcher and you can play it with the LED mana.

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

What about a single Trash for Treasure in the SB? It could be useful to recur a countered belcher and you can play it with the LED mana.

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Um... are you sure you can do that? It's an ADDITIONAL cost to sac an artifact. So you can't cast Trash For Treasure and in response sac LED to both add 3 mana AND cover the saccing cost for TFT. That's like sayiing "well my opponent casted Innocent Blood while I have Pile Driver and Fanatic out and I'll choose to sac Fanatic to Innocent Blood but in response I'll ping you for 1." You would still have to sac the Pile Driver then in that situation. If you have say a Chrome Mox or some other artifact out, then it would work. You would just sac the Chrome Mox as part of the cost, then while TFT is on the stack, THEN sac LED to get your 3 mana.

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Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY

Um... are you sure you can do that? It's an ADDITIONAL cost to sac an artifact. So you can't cast Trash For Treasure and in response sac LED to both add 3 mana AND cover the saccing cost for TFT. That's like sayiing "well my opponent casted Innocent Blood while I have Pile Driver and Fanatic out and I'll choose to sac Fanatic to Innocent Blood but in response I'll ping you for 1." You would still have to sac the Pile Driver then in that situation. If you have say a Chrome Mox or some artifact out, then it would work. You would just sac the Chrome Mox as part of the cost, then while TFT is on the stack, THEN sac LED to get your 3 mana.

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Of course you LED and another artefact.
Still it could be useful.

I'm surprised people aren't running Diminishing Returns, Bonivious seems to be the only one. You should especially be playing it if you're playing Wild Cantor, no reason not to. You have means of hardcasting it (meaning: not with Lion's Eye Diamond), and easy ways to cast it (meaning: with Lion's Eye Diamond). Don't be afraid to take from other combo, it's what I do with TES. I saw Belcher running Goblin War Strike and stole that and started testing it, I saw SI running draw 4's so I tested one as a wish target. Try some new things out, you may even like some of them.

I could never figure out what the appropriate situation is for wishing for Returns. All it seems to do is to inflate the storm count some more (and a lot of the times that is overkill, on top of that sometimes you run into an all-mana hand leaving you stuck), or if you know your opponent has ETW hate and need to dig out the Belcher (but then again you can just wish for tutor...)

I tried wishing for it sometimes in testing, but results weren't really awe-inspiring. In real games I've never wished for it.

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Originally Posted by Lone Signal

I could never figure out what the appropriate situation is for wishing for Returns. All it seems to do is to inflate the storm count some more (and a lot of the times that is overkill, on top of that sometimes you run into an all-mana hand leaving you stuck), or if you know your opponent has ETW hate and need to dig out the Belcher (but then again you can just wish for tutor...)

I tried wishing for it sometimes in testing, but results weren't really awe-inspiring. In real games I've never wished for it.

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I like it on hands where my Empty The Warrens would be less than inspiring. Like, just for S&G, I goldfished a few hands on MWS until I came up with this hand, on opening hand #4.

Take a random opening hand like this, which isn't too uncommon:

Taiga
Burning Wish
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond
Elvish Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Rite of Flame

If you go through the motions to Empty The Warrens here, you're only going to get 8 tokens (Rite, LED, Wish, ETW.) 8 might not be enough to kill here.

Now you -could- open with Taiga, SSG, Burning Wish here, grabbing whatever floats your boat, preparing to launch into ETW next turn. Or you could go through the Rite/LED/Wish motions and grab Diminishing Returns, launching you into a new hand. The hand it launched me into was:

Land Grant
Desperate Ritual
Seething Song
Empty The Warrens
Tinder Wall
Goblin Charbelcher
Chrome Mox

Not bad at all. From this point, using my floating Red, I could either continue the storm count here (Mox-5, Tinder Wall-6, Desperate Rit-7, Seething Song-8, ETW-9 for 18 Tokens), or I could go for the Belcher (though I'd be one mana short of activating it that turn.) Here I'd imprint the Grant on the Mox, Desperate Rit, Seething Song, Belcher. Next turn the Tinder Wall would allow me the 3 mana to activate it.

So to -me-, Diminishing Returns is there to help smooth out hands with lots of mana but without a lot of spells.

Also, say you hit a Belcher mirror. Your opponent goes first and manages ETW for 12. Your hand after you draw is:

Land Grant
Rite of Flame
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Simian Spirit Guide
Elvish Spirit Guide
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond

Conventional logic here goes Land Grant for Taiga, ESG, Burning Wish for Cave-In, pitch SSG to Cave-In. You can also ETW for 14, giving yourself a slight edge. Diminishing Returns, however, gives you the option to make an interesting gamble: You can cast it hoping to get the Belcher and kill your opponent right off.

The most important thing about Diminishing Returns is that it forces the opponent to discard and redraw his hand, while increasing the storm count to 10+. Either the opponent doesn't draw another answer for Empty the Warrens, Empty the Warrens is too fast for their answer or you draw Goblin Charbelcher. It's also the best Wish target after an opponent has countered the rest of the deck's acceleration or threats and the deck needs to get back into the game with limited resources. Empty the Warrens for six in the mid game is laughable, but a Diminishing Returns can win the game on the spot.

Next to Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns is the best "business" card in the SB.

You must be kidding.
When I tested the R-G-B version I had quite some difficulties from time to time reaching 1 single black mana. And now you are seriously considering this? I have no possible way of fitting such a narrow answer in my sideboard. The only reliable way of reaching double blue is via LED which doesn't happen often enough to have dimnishing in your wish board.
I think if your opponent storms for X tokens, you have a more dependable answer with pyroclasm or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Not bad at all. From this point, using my floating Red, I could either continue the storm count here (Mox-5, Tinder Wall-6, Desperate Rit-7, Seething Song-8, ETW-9 for 18 Tokens), or I could go for the Belcher (though I'd be one mana short of activating it that turn.) Here I'd imprint the Grant on the Mox, Desperate Rit, Seething Song, Belcher. Next turn the Tinder Wall would allow me the 3 mana to activate it.

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What version of Belcher are you running here? With CRET Belcher/2 Land Belcher, you'd land grant for the Bayou and remove the ETW for the mox imprint, next turn you drop the Bayou and have 0 chance of hitting a land, anmd in cast of a stifle you can go for the Belch next turn due to 3 permanent mana sources as opposed to 2 with the tinder sac.

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Originally Posted by Reagans

You must be kidding.
When I tested the R-G-B version I had quite some difficulties from time to time reaching 1 single black mana. And now you are seriously considering this? I have no possible way of fitting such a narrow answer in my sideboard. The only reliable way of reaching double blue is via LED which doesn't happen often enough to have dimnishing in your wish board.
I think if your opponent storms for X tokens, you have a more dependable answer with pyroclasm or something.

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I can't imagine too many scenarios where you wish WITHOUT an LED on the table. Generally you need the LED to help with mana for an ETW and to up the storm count.

Also Diminishing in the sideboard is more of a great when you have the chance type of card. It helps a lot when you have a hand with wish that wont give you a lot of storm, generally one with a lot of guides and/or moxen. So it dramatically increases your likelihood of going off on turn 1 with an otherwise subpar hand.

So what you are implying is that you need a LED to go off succesfully anyway?
I do not agree. I have had plenty of hands with 3 red rituals and 1 random spell going into empty the warrens turn 1.
Do you also try this play when you don't know what you're facing? You'll see a lot more force of wills coming your way in that case. Diminishing returns almost always burns up all your mana so they generally have to counter one accelerant then...

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Originally Posted by Reagens

So what you are implying is that you need a LED to go off succesfully anyway?
I do not agree. I have had plenty of hands with 3 red rituals and 1 random spell going into empty the warrens turn 1.
Do you also try this play when you don't know what you're facing? You'll see a lot more force of wills coming your way in that case. Diminishing returns almost always burns up all your mana so they generally have to counter one accelerant then...

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If you walk into Force of Will on the play, you're going to lose the game any way. If you draw them into a Force of Will on the play, you've got floating mana, Land Grant->Taiga and Chrome Mox generating card advantage to off set it. Using Diminishing Returns is hand dependent, but if you do use it, you shouldn't be afraid of drawing them into a Force of Will. I'd definitely try to avoid using it on the draw tho', because drawing them into Force of Will, Stifle and Daze is a little much.

You really want Diminishing Returns in your SB, 1 SB card for another out isn't asking a whole lot, and Infernal Tutor is garbage any way.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

You really want Diminishing Returns in your SB, 1 SB card for another out isn't asking a whole lot, and Infernal Tutor is garbage any way.

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At least Infernal Tutor is reliable and versatile in contrast to Diminishing Returns which is always a gamble.

But I don't see them in the same slot anyways. Tutor is a precise tool to get the job done: Upping stormcount slightly but reliable, finding a Belcher when EtW cannot be used.

Returns is for more desperate situations or shitty hands when you would loose anyways without it and can pull off a win with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

So what you are implying is that you need a LED to go off succesfully anyway?
I do not agree. I have had plenty of hands with 3 red rituals and 1 random spell going into empty the warrens turn 1.
Do you also try this play when you don't know what you're facing? You'll see a lot more force of wills coming your way in that case. Diminishing returns almost always burns up all your mana so they generally have to counter one accelerant then...

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No. I'm saying that LED is very common in Wish situations because you tend to need the mana it provides. If I look at a hand with Burning Wish I'm also hoping to see LED, if not it's pretty likely I've gotta reshuffle. You generally need an LED for a BW>IT combo anyways, so being dependent on the same card combo for DR isn't exactly far fetched.

As for the FoW, if you're playing a deck with FoW they've probably mulled into it anyways and in that case you're probably boned no matter what you do with Belcher. Also with only 4 Force of Wills possible in the deck you have greater chance of them NOT drawing Force/blue card off of DR than them drawing it. Who knows maybe they're a bad enough player that they'd be willing to risk drawing into another one, or you fizzling on your combo with DR and not counter it.

what does your wishboard look like if it has returns?

I am hoping for:

Card - Reason
Card - reason
etc.

The only reason I ask is taht I am running a similar list to a german player that top 8'd. It has 2 main deck Rituals and 2 Infernal Tutors and 1 in board. They are the only non R/G cards besides the artifacts. My slots are so tight due to the Xantid Swarms and already large Wish targets. I have the 4 Spree, 4 Swarm and then 7 1-ofs; and I can't imagine compedatively swaying from that for such a large gamble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Also, say you hit a Belcher mirror. Your opponent goes first and manages ETW for 12. Your hand after you draw is:

Land Grant
Rite of Flame
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Simian Spirit Guide
Elvish Spirit Guide
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond

Conventional logic here goes Land Grant for Taiga, ESG, Burning Wish for Cave-In, pitch SSG to Cave-In. You can also ETW for 14, giving yourself a slight edge. Diminishing Returns, however, gives you the option to make an interesting gamble: You can cast it hoping to get the Belcher and kill your opponent right off.

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Or get stuck casting X tokens and your opponent with a full hand...
Or get stuck not drawing a kill condition and fizzle. While looking at 12 tokens...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xXxBretWeedxXx

No. I'm saying that LED is very common in Wish situations because you tend to need the mana it provides. If I look at a hand with Burning Wish I'm also hoping to see LED, if not it's pretty likely I've gotta reshuffle. You generally need an LED for a BW>IT combo anyways, so being dependent on the same card combo for DR isn't exactly far fetched.

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Diminishing returns will always be a gamble whereas the result of your infernal tutor will always be predictable. Who claims you have to have an empty hand anyway to be able to use it? You can tutor up an extra accelerant for upping the storm count for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knuckles29

what does your wishboard look like if it has returns?

I am hoping for:

Card - Reason
Card - reason
etc.

The only reason I ask is taht I am running a similar list to a german player that top 8'd. It has 2 main deck Rituals and 2 Infernal Tutors and 1 in board. They are the only non R/G cards besides the artifacts. My slots are so tight due to the Xantid Swarms and already large Wish targets. I have the 4 Spree, 4 Swarm and then 7 1-ofs; and I can't imagine compedatively swaying from that for such a large gamble.

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1 Empty The Warrens - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Diminishing Returns - Engine
1 Land Grant - Helps me win with Belcher or a way to get mana for a Dark Rit
1 Infernal Tutor - Engine
1 Tendrils Of Agony - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Hull Breach - Control Help
1 Shattering Spree - Control Help
1 Goblin War Strike - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Pyroclasm - Creature Control
3 Pyroblasts - Control Help
3 Xantid Swarm - Control Help


I keep mixing the 6 slots that Xantid and Pyroblast occupy. Haven't 100% settled on which cards to run to really help me out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Or get stuck casting X tokens and your opponent with a full hand...
Or get stuck not drawing a kill condition and fizzle. While looking at 12 tokens...





Diminishing returns will always be a gamble whereas the result of your infernal tutor will always be predictable. Who claims you have to have an empty hand anyway to be able to use it? You can tutor up an extra accelerant for upping the storm count for example.

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There are situations where you need to win out on a turn and goblin tokens just wont help. Diminishing Returns can be your ace in the hole here. Sure it's a gamble but sometimes you need to take risks.

And sure you can grab a 2nd LED or another Dark Rit or something but most times I need to use it to grab a win condition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knuckles29

what does your wishboard look like if it has returns?

I am hoping for:

Card - Reason
Card - reason
etc.

The only reason I ask is taht I am running a similar list to a german player that top 8'd. It has 2 main deck Rituals and 2 Infernal Tutors and 1 in board. They are the only non R/G cards besides the artifacts. My slots are so tight due to the Xantid Swarms and already large Wish targets. I have the 4 Spree, 4 Swarm and then 7 1-ofs; and I can't imagine compedatively swaying from that for such a large gamble.

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1 Empty The Warrens- Wish Kill Condition
1 Simplify- Enchantment Kill
1 Diminishing Returns- Helps you in a dead situation hand. Hands with acceleration + LED + Wish into a D. Returns is always a good play.
1 Cave-In- Kills Goblins and Zombies.... sounds good to me.
4 Shattering Spree- Theres a lot of Stax, Needles, and other nasty artifacts in my meta... This card is just plan amazing as an answer.
4 REB
3 Pyroblast- I use these game 2 if I see almost any Blue. It helps a lot. Its also pretty good with Diminishing Returns if your opponent is playing FoW.

It does pretty good for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xXxBretWeedxXx

1 Empty The Warrens - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Diminishing Returns - Engine
1 Land Grant - Helps me win with Belcher or a way to get mana for a Dark Rit
1 Infernal Tutor - Engine
1 Tendrils Of Agony - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Hull Breach - Control Help
1 Shattering Spree - Control Help
1 Goblin War Strike - Wish Target Kill Con
1 Pyroclasm - Creature Control
3 Pyroblasts - Control Help
3 Xantid Swarm - Control Help


I keep mixing the 6 slots that Xantid and Pyroblast occupy. Haven't 100% settled on which cards to run to really help me out.

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Wow.... your sideboard is kind of weird. Land Grant in the sb!?!? If you are ever Burning Wishing for that, chances are you are in a bad position. Also, have you tried Cave-In over Pyroclasm? It is much easier to cast. Also, it looks like you have an AWFUL matchup against Stax variants and decks packing Chalice. You should up your Shattering Spree count because it is retarded, and cut the Hull Breach for a Simplify. IDK, your board just seems kind of all over the place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NANTUKO_SHADY

Wow.... your sideboard is kind of weird. Land Grant in the sb!?!? If you are ever Burning Wishing for that, chances are you are in a bad position. Also, have you tried Cave-In over Pyroclasm? It is much easier to cast. Also, it looks like you have an AWFUL matchup against Stax variants and decks packing Chalice. You should up your Shattering Spree count because it is retarded, and cut the Hull Breach for a Simplify. IDK, your board just seems kind of all over the place.

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Land Grant is awesome in the SB. Ever have those hands where you have a Burning Wish and a Belcher? I run 2 land Belcher and it's always great to be able to wish for a Bayou, I only lose 1 mana through it and I get that card out of my deck for the belch.

And I don't seem to find myself in the position of having 3 red cards in my hand as much as the ability to get the appropriate mana.

Shattering Spree is good and something I've been toying with to get another in the deck.

Crack the Earth appears to be a viable sideboard option. In testing it seems superior to Duress. First turn EtW. Second turn Wish for Crack the Earth. This will stop most decks from reaching the 2 or 3 mana they need to cast their board sweeper and allows your horde a chance for that fatal second swing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TestMonkey

Crack the Earth appears to be a viable sideboard option. In testing it seems superior to Duress. First turn EtW. Second turn Wish for Crack the Earth. This will stop most decks from reaching the 2 or 3 mana they need to cast their board sweeper and allows your horde a chance for that fatal second swing.

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IMHO too random, often it will not work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TestMonkey

First turn EtW. Second turn Wish for Crack the Earth.

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Why exactly is this better than first turn EtW, second turn Wish for Goblin War Strike, leaving the opponent at zero life?

I don't know usually you won't have any mana producers and maybe only one card in hand after a first turn empty the warrens.