[OLD] UGr Threshold

Trygon Predator would probably have to be the best candidate, but you'd probably want to run extra miror match hate in the sideboard to balance it out. It seems to me the best answer would be to run more counters so that these problem cards never resolve and just give up on dealing with them once they resolve, as all other plans have drawbacks too significant.

If you really want to be able to answer these cards, I'd play UGbw Gro with Vindicate. Obviously the mana would be difficult, so you'd have to run a few maindeck Pithing Needles.

The bottom line: Counters are the only answers to these problem cards that are not inefficient or narrow, so the best solution is to run more counters and/or cantrips.

I have been trying this deck for awhile now, and just having tons of trouble in many matchups. I'm running 4 bolt and 2 fledgling dragon, and the rest is pretty much the basic threshold list, cantrips, bears and mongeese with a typical mana base. I just eat it to everything, I've been playing the deck for awhile now on MWS (2-3 months) and have just not been having any success at all. Decks like Zoo and Faerie Stompy, Fish and some Pikula variants have all wrecked me. Any loam-based decks preboard, etc. Am I lacking sufficient removal? I want to try Fire/Ice and Magma Jet, but the lack of success thus far is discouraging. What is keeping me from replicating the sucess i've seen in the thread thusfar?

You played the deck wrong then. You lost against Bw Pikula (which has a better match up than White because it has more removal), and this usually has a better Fish match-up than White thresh because it can consistently answer troublesome guys (Mage, Confidant, Mom) at the beginning of the game.

1. Were you playing Predict in your build along with the 8 Cantrips and 4 Magma Jets? Is so, how do you lose those match-ups.

2. Zoo and Faerie Stompy is meant to wreck Thresh. Dont feel bad, this deck loses to 9 Land Stompy, because it's meant to be. Luckily, you can do better against 9 Land Stompy than White. Zoo is just Stompy with better and bigger creatures. yikes!

3. Dont play the Red Hatfield version of Thresh, if you want to play a Hatfield variant, play the Black or White one. If your gonna play Red, run Wastedlife's build. Nobody ever listens to me, that build wins a lot. I slapped Angel Stompy around 2-1 and sometimes 2-0. I slapped the mirror around 2-0 with that deck. I slapped Hanni Fish 2-0 with that deck. I slapped Goblins around game 2-0. I even do better against Faerie Stompy because I was able to overwhelm them with Magma Jets and Fire // Ice to draw me into counters to counter their fat/Equipment and guys to overwhelm them.

Heres a Maindeck....


// Lands 17
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice


// Sideboard 15
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pyroclasm
3 Flametongue Kavu


Heres the thing.... that decklist wins (exclude the SB, the MD is important right now). It's Burn heavy, and it's still aggresive, and your opponent sill has to play slightly more differently because you have Burn. You making them crash into more decisions. Even a bluff of a couple lands in your hand can tell them you have Burn.

Yes, I was playing 4 predict and 4 portent. I just felt like I was always overwhelmed with threats from my opponent, and a lot of times felt like my one goose or bear just wasn't enough to deal with what they were throwing at me. I will try the build with more fire/ice and magma jet, however.

You can run Portents over Fire // Ice if your meta warrents it. Honestly, Portent is a much better cantrip than Fire // Ice, but against Aggro and Fish, you would much rather have Fire // Ice.

Also, how did you lose to Deadguy with Hatfield Thresh? I was wondering because I have always beaten Deadguy with Hatfield Thresh (it's my religion basically). Did you get early Needles on Wasteland? How efficiently did you answer their early creatures? If you feel that you have to continue running Red Hatfield Thresh, make sure you run Needles main. That's how you win. It's not the lack of removal you probably lost with Hatfield, it's the quality of those removal cards. Needles answer stupid random things too. 16 Cantrips should give you a good feel of how to use this deck to find answer consistently.

U/G/r Threshold

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Serendib Efreet

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

That's what I would run maindeck with Needles sideboard. Stifle generates alot more tempo, which this deck wants because it wants to play the beatdown. It also answers Goblins well by stopping Ringleader... Needle stops Vial, and while Vial may fuel Goblins well, that mana is wasted mana if they don't refuel their hand constantly. Threshold runs no card draw so making sure they don't allow Goblins to win by card advantage is crucial. It's better than Pithing Needle against Solidarity too, since it can pop Fetchlands for an even larger increase in tempo. If nothing else, it can try to stop Brain Freeze. In the mirror, both Needle and Stifle aren't very good but Stifle is much better here since it can hit fetchlands or pitch to FoW. An exception may be against builds with Scepter but I haven't seen those in a while.

The Mental Notes allow the deck to become the beatdown much faster, with a path cleared by burn. Predict may be good in UGw but I definitely think Mental Note is the way to go in UGr. It is important to Portent, but Fire//Ice is alot more versatile. I love Fire//Ice and I would gladly run it instead of the rediculous amounts of pure cantrip that traditional Threshold uses. Magma Jet isn't bad either, since it's instant speed Serum Visions removal without the draw. Scry is a busted mechanic and having Scry #6 is pretty cool.

I don't think Counterspell is right for UGr. It's good in UGw, since the deck more often plays the control role against most decks. UGr wants to beat quickly and UU spells in hand are a little slow. If the deck could fit it, it would run it, but I think FoW/Daze/Stifle fit the role enough. A 4th Daze could be good but I think the redundancy of cantrip and the untargetability of Mongoose reduces the need for it.

I think Serendib is a much better option than Fledgling Dragon since it comes down a turn faster, isn't Threshold dependant, and it doesn't strain the manabase. The difference in speed between Dragon and Efreet is important for a deck that wants to play the beatdown.

That's all I have for now. I like UGr Threshold better than UGw Threshold.

I'd rather run 4 magma jet than 4 fire/ice. I suppose a 3/3 split could work too, so you still have more fodder for Force of Will pitches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

U/G/r Threshold

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Serendib Efreet

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Fire//Ice
2 Magma Jet
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

That's what I would run maindeck with Needles sideboard. Stifle generates alot more tempo, which this deck wants because it wants to play the beatdown. It also answers Goblins well by stopping Ringleader... Needle stops Vial, and while Vial may fuel Goblins well, that mana is wasted mana if they don't refuel their hand constantly. Threshold runs no card draw so making sure they don't allow Goblins to win by card advantage is crucial. It's better than Pithing Needle against Solidarity too, since it can pop Fetchlands for an even larger increase in tempo. If nothing else, it can try to stop Brain Freeze. In the mirror, both Needle and Stifle aren't very good but Stifle is much better here since it can hit fetchlands or pitch to FoW. An exception may be against builds with Scepter but I haven't seen those in a while.

The Mental Notes allow the deck to become the beatdown much faster, with a path cleared by burn. Predict may be good in UGw but I definitely think Mental Note is the way to go in UGr. It is important to Portent, but Fire//Ice is alot more versatile. I love Fire//Ice and I would gladly run it instead of the rediculous amounts of pure cantrip that traditional Threshold uses. Magma Jet isn't bad either, since it's instant speed Serum Visions removal without the draw. Scry is a busted mechanic and having Scry #6 is pretty cool.

I don't think Counterspell is right for UGr. It's good in UGw, since the deck more often plays the control role against most decks. UGr wants to beat quickly and UU spells in hand are a little slow. If the deck could fit it, it would run it, but I think FoW/Daze/Stifle fit the role enough. A 4th Daze could be good but I think the redundancy of cantrip and the untargetability of Mongoose reduces the need for it.

I think Serendib is a much better option than Fledgling Dragon since it comes down a turn faster, isn't Threshold dependant, and it doesn't strain the manabase. The difference in speed between Dragon and Efreet is important for a deck that wants to play the beatdown.

That's all I have for now. I like UGr Threshold better than UGw Threshold.

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Have you seen Pat McGregor's list? the importance and and verstality of Counterspell. You need Counterspell because of Solidarity. When they play High Tide, that's when ou know you need it. Also, your quite wrong about UGw Threshold. They play the Tempo role. they play Mental Note, they play beatdown. Meddling Mage is a creature, and creatures dont last long in this format. Mental Note exploits Mages power and helps the deck win before Mage can be ignored or answered. It's all about tempo; Meddling Mage slows your opponent down, while your men go for the throat.
Just because this deck runs Burn doesnt make it more aggressive. Burn is just flexible reach/control. If you want to deal with Goblins, run 12 burn cards or run 3 Needles maindecked. This deck can easily deal with Goblins with more hard counters. Stifles are good, but only in a certain number alongside with Counterspell.

Mental note equals NO in UGr thresh, at least from my testing. Your burn and cantrips get you threshold fast enough when combined with predict. The extra cards and card selection thus gives you better mid to late game and more chance of burning an opponent out. Also, magma jet> fire/ice almost always.

As for my UGw version...I run predict in place of note there too, but don't tell anyone.

Ancient Grudge is TECH in the SB. Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but it's fairly obvious.

Ancient Grudge will be considered when the metagame shifts into a more Chalice/Faerie Stompy/Aggro-Control Equipment/Stax/5/3 oriented metagame. Right now, I dont see that card being better than Engineered Explosives.

Goblins in my meta SB's Chalice very consistently. The last couple weeks I have tested this sideboarding strategy in a couple ten game sets vs. a crypt chalice setup for goblins.

-2 Dragon
-1 Counterspell
-3 Pithing needle
-4 Predict

+3 Stifle
+4 Clasm
+3 Naturalize

I found that Naturalize was very comparible to Pithing Needle, and was even better if the opponent was splashing a color for (Naturalize, Disenchant, Grip).

I feel like such a noob not thinking of Grudge....that would make my FS matchup so so much better. :smile:

I cant think of many troublesome enchantments right now.... probably Worship, Moat, and probably Sacred Ground. Rifter is kinda obsolete right now, so Lightning Rift and Humility is kinda crap. Ancient Grudge should be better.

@Happy Gilmore: What build of Threshold are you running right now? UGr Hatfield? Isnt UGw better though? Also, why do you side out Needle? I find myself Neddling Wasteland too much to ever side it out... even if you use it to deal with Chalice. Wouldnt this be better? Have you thought about siding out 3 Cantrips, or is Pyroclasm too valuable in this match up to cut Cantrips?

I guess you could call it "Hatfield Grow." And I would say your problem with wasteland stems from the fact you are too reliant on drawing into your lands naturally in the early game. I wonder, are you searching for the basic islands? I have never named Wasteland against goblins with my Pithing Needles as far as I can remember.

Here is a tip as far as boarding naturalize:

"Watch how many cards they sideboard, it will probably tell you if you need to worry about Chalice or not." (Deep6er)

I rarely watch sideboarding but I'm trying to get into the habit. It is amazing how much information you can gather from your opponent this way.

Which is why you should probably (at least at a major event) be boarding by shuffling your entire sideboard into your deck, then taking out 15 cards. Now that's pretty annoying if someone is trying to watch you board...

But yeah, I think naturalize over needle is a good idea in most cases. Tinkerer becomes useless and it seems like too much of a liability with even the possibility that they board chalice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

I guess you could call it "Hatfield Grow." And I would say your problem with wasteland stems from the fact you are too reliant on drawing into your lands naturally in the early game. I wonder, are you searching for the basic islands? I have never named Wasteland against goblins with my Pithing Needles as far as I can remember.

Here is a tip as far as boarding naturalize:

"Watch how many cards they sideboard, it will probably tell you if you need to worry about Chalice or not." (Deep6er)

I rarely watch sideboarding but I'm trying to get into the habit. It is amazing how much information you can gather from your opponent this way.

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I fetch Basics really often to tell the truth. My problems are the Port. They keep from double UU, and they make attempts to keep me off Green. If I'm running Red, I dont think I ever need to fetch out Red unless I need to play Clasm' that turn, so I tend to just sit back with Mountains in my hand.
And but searching for my own lands, did you mean the cantrip power this deck provides?

Yes, I in fact do, but the fact I'm wasting my card quality for mana seems kind of a terrible theory, even though I have won games like that, since I dedicated most of my time finding clasms and being able to cast them and swinging with my men, whereas, the UGw version of this deck seems to slowly try and deplete Goblins from the beginning before it becomes a liability mid-late game.


When I played the UGw Hatfield Gro, I found myself not worrying so much about my mana base since it takes 1 Basic Island to function off of, since I side in 3 Hydroblasts and 3 Stifles. I dont fetch my duals as much as I need to, but I'm just more interested in your game plan, since I kinda played like that when I picked up Red.

@nitewolf9: I kinda think that making Tinkerer dead is probably the best plan I've heard of in ages. Now I have to cut Krosan Grip because of you.:wink:

I have done that before... you know, sidein my entire SB. I did it game 3 and I made my opponent re-do his SB. At the end of the game, I won, and he realized I didnt make any changes to my SB plan.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

I fetch Basics really often to tell the truth. My problems are the Port. They keep from double UU, and they make attempts to keep me off Green. If I'm running Red, I dont think I ever need to fetch out Red unless I need to play Clasm' that turn, so I tend to just sit back with Mountains in my hand.
And but searching for my own lands, did you mean the cantrip power this deck provides?

Yes, I in fact do, but the fact I'm wasting my card quality for mana seems kind of a terrible theory, even though I have won games like that, since I dedicated most of my time finding clasms and being able to cast them and swinging with my men, whereas, the UGw version of this deck seems to slowly try and deplete Goblins from the beginning before it becomes a liability mid-late game.


When I played the UGw Hatfield Gro, I found myself not worrying so much about my mana base since it takes 1 Basic Island to function off of, since I side in 3 Hydroblasts and 3 Stifles. I dont fetch my duals as much as I need to, but I'm just more interested in your game plan, since I kinda played like that when I picked up Red.

@nitewolf9: I kinda think that making Tinkerer dead is probably the best plan I've heard of in ages. Now I have to cut Krosan Grip because of you.:wink:

I have done that before... you know, sidein my entire SB. I did it game 3 and I made my opponent re-do his SB. At the end of the game, I won, and he realized I didnt make any changes to my SB plan.

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Thats a sweet trick, I've done that before when I realize my opponent is watching me. As for the way I play....I can only tell you that it is different from how I play the white version. I fetch alot less game two and three, keeping my fetches on the board. If I go for a non-basic early I normally go for a trop because I always have a Forest later on. I play no creatures before I have thresh unless I need to block lacky with Mongoose. In the mid and late game I normally ship the counterspells for burn, stifles, and creatures. I try to always have an answer for crypt and SGC if possible. Once I start putting on the beats I never go back on defense (never had to). I lose when I can't get to that point in the game.

I might also mention that the testing I did with Naturalize over Needle was done with the white version. And what I found was if my opponent was boarding Chalice that I had only 6 answers to it (all counters). If I loose game one it is going to be very hard to win game 2 unless I take a chance on boarding Naturalize. I think its a neccessary evil, but you will find its really not that bad. And now that I am using Grudge it might be even better, maybe. There is something to be said for needing your red sources earlier in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Thats a sweet trick, I've done that before when I realize my opponent is watching me. As for the way I play....I can only tell you that it is different from how I play the white version. I fetch alot less game two and three, keeping my fetches on the board. If I go for a non-basic early I normally go for a trop because I always have a Forest later on. I play no creatures before I have thresh unless I need to block lacky with Mongoose. In the mid and late game I normally ship the counterspells for burn, stifles, and creatures. I try to always have an answer for crypt and SGC if possible. Once I start putting on the beats I never go back on defense (never had to). I lose when I can't get to that point in the game.

I might also mention that the testing I did with Naturalize over Needle was done with the white version. And what I found was if my opponent was boarding Chalice that I had only 6 answers to it (all counters). If I loose game one it is going to be very hard to win game 2 unless I take a chance on boarding Naturalize. I think its a neccessary evil, but you will find its really not that bad. And now that I am using Grudge it might be even better, maybe. There is something to be said for needing your red sources earlier in the game.

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I dont like the idea of Grudge against Goblins. Keeping Red on the table is very hard, even if Grudge is an instant, but I guess it should be tested since most of the disruption they'll throw at you will be Ports. I suppose using Ancient Grude on upkeep is a very exceptional thing to do.

Against Goblins, I tend to keep Counterspells in my hand. Goblins topdecks are craziest topecks ever, so I need to answer them.

Early Game I try to get an answer to Lackey, and maybe Vial. After that, I try and get as many answers as possible to answer Matrons, Ringleaders, and SCG. Late game, I still thrive for Counterspells, and I tend to also aime for my win conditions as well, since they can also double as blockers.

I will test the Naturalize plan. I have had a problem with Tinkerer, but it hanst become a liability in my metagame yet.

Why does nobody play Burning Tree Shaman? That guy just fits into this deck even more than Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet and it a thousan times better than Flegling Dragon.

BTS does a lot of damage in the Landstill and Rift matchup and is independable from Theshold, but got a solid body though. Well, you will also receive damage from your own Fetchlands, but that's not that important, because you got 11 Burnspells (4 Bolt and a 3/4 split of Magma Jet and F/I).

I think he gives the deck the possibility to be more straight-foward than even now.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Why does nobody play Burning Tree Shaman? That guy just fits into this deck even more than Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet and it a thousan times better than Flegling Dragon.

BTS does a lot of damage in the Landstill and Rift matchup and is independable from Theshold, but got a solid body though. Well, you will also receive damage from your own Fetchlands, but that's not that important, because you got 11 Burnspells (4 Bolt and a 3/4 split of Magma Jet and F/I).

I think he gives the deck the possibility to be more straight-foward than even now.

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A thousand times better? So he is a three turn clock on his own, kills Werebears, doesn't do damage to yourself, doesn't die to Dystopia, has evasion, and trades with Mystic Enforcer? I don't mean to be sarcastic but justifying a creature because you have 11 burn spells to negate his major drawback (evasion), does not make him many times better than Dragon. However, I have seen the list that T8ed in Europe with Burning Tree Shaman and if you get an chance to test a build with him against Goblins and the mirror I would be very interested in the results. The only issue I have with Dragon is his double R mana requirement. Besides that he is easily the best option for a 2 of finisher in UGR. And because of that I can see why everyone is exploring other options. I myself have been testing Fathom Sear instead but he seems weak most of the time. The protection from wasteland is neet but once you hit three mana you don't normally have to worry about waste anyway. No, the card that replaces Dragon has to be evasive and fat or its no dice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

Why does nobody play Burning Tree Shaman? That guy just fits into this deck even more than Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet and it a thousan times better than Flegling Dragon.

BTS does a lot of damage in the Landstill and Rift matchup and is independable from Theshold, but got a solid body though. Well, you will also receive damage from your own Fetchlands, but that's not that important, because you got 11 Burnspells (4 Bolt and a 3/4 split of Magma Jet and F/I).

I think he gives the deck the possibility to be more straight-foward than even now.

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You really should've searched the thread before posting this nonsense about Burning Tree Shaman, because it's already been discussed and it's awful. Just to recap, Fetchlands + Burning Tree Shaman = NOT a combo!

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

No, the card that replaces Dragon has to be evasive and fat or its no dice.

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... and non-Green, if you have any significant number of Swamps in your meta (Perish, Dystopia).

Edit: whoo, I should pay attention to datestamps on messages....

This is my decklist from The Mana Leak Open, which took me to T8 on day two (as well as T16 on day one).

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
3 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic
2 Naturalize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sensei's Divining Top

I don't really remember enough to write a report, but I'd like to talk about the build.

The reason I'm currently running red instead of white is, as always, for Pyroclasm against Goblins. I felt losing Swords to Plowshares was acceptable because the matchups that significantly impacts are less important than the Goblin matchup, particularly if the disadvantage in the mirror match can be tempered with the sideboard.

I decided that I would need to sideboard at least seven cards for the mirror match so that I wasn't at too much of a disadvantage (I want to board out Lightning Bolt and Pithing Needle), and dropping white means no Nantuko Monastery or Jotun Grunt. After considering several red, blue, and green options, I decided on Counterbalance, which others around here had tested in the mirror to some success, and which doubles as an answer to combo (where I previously had Stifle).

I believe Counterbalance is strong on its own, but incorporating Top into the draw engine makes it much stronger. I was initially worried about Top being too slow against Goblins, but in my limited testing and tournament experience, this has not been significant. I think two is the correct number for the maindeck, because they are redundant and less efficient than other draw spells, but that a third should be boarded because you definitely want to see it against control decks or the mirror. I also think it needs to replace draw spells, but I don't know which ones. As you can see, I've cut down to 3 Portent and 3 Serum Visions right now, but running a 4/2 split or cutting a Predict might be better (Top and Predict serve similar roles, but Top makes drawing multiple Predicts very good).

Control Magic is there because I was worried about having no answer to Jotun Grunt on the board, as well as no answer to Enforcer except a two-of Dragon. Flametongue is not there because it stops the former but not the latter, and at the same price. I wanted to run Loaming Shaman as well, but could not find a way to fit it in along with the other cards I wanted.

I've always considered at least 2 Naturalize necessary, and I've been running 3 for some time. However, considering that artifacts are much more prevalent than enchantments, I have cut to 2 Naturalize and added Ancient Grudge. Grudge is mainly for the Goblin matchup, where I want to board at least one extra answer to Vial, particularly one that can answer Chalice as well. Naturalize and Grudge are both inefficient for this, but Grudge can generate card advantage to make up for it.

This list is still relatively new, and I'm not absolutely sure about these changes, but after playing it in the Running GAGG and both days at TML Open 2, I am very optimistic. Compared to my previous white build, I believe that the matchup against Goblins and any control deck is significantly improved, and the matchup against combo is either improved or unchanged. It still needs to be tested against the mirror, but even if it is at a disadvantage against white, the improved Goblin matchup may be worth it.

I was amazed with the results this deck gave me. I got around to test it, and I might play it at my next big tournament. Goblins has become a much bigger concern in my meta, Threshold is growing weak, and Combo is on the rise to answer Goblins. I know for a fact that

1. Goblins and Combo are rampant now.
2. The only card from the mirror that truely worries you will always be Mystic Enforcer. Since your Lightning Bolts are somewhat dead, you may as well hold 2 of them in your hand just to answer Enforcer around midgame (assuming this happens).
3. Top can easily help you outdraw the Gro mirror. It really shouldnt matter.


Congratz on making Top 8. I really look forward to this deck doing well. Also, have you considered Loaming Shaman instead of Control Magic, or has Control Mage been too powerful to cut due to effectiveness of this in the Midgame mirror? Estimated, how long do you think it could take to assemble the Counterbalance/Top combo with all the cantrips in this deck?

Could we get some boarding plans, too? And why such a small red package? I have, in place of your ridiculous amount of portents and tops (which I'd like to fit in) 4 magma jet 4 fire//ice. I'm at 61 cards, but I like it anyway.

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

Could we get some boarding plans, too? And why such a small red package? I have, in place of your ridiculous amount of portents and tops (which I'd like to fit in) 4 magma jet 4 fire//ice. I'm at 61 cards, but I like it anyway.

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Wastedlife's deck? Different mana base I assume as well, probably

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island


Awhile ago, Wastedlife cut a Fire // Ice from his list due to the fact that 61 cards isnt optimal. It's not so bad, but your Goblins MU is weakened without Needle. This deck plays so much more aggressively than the NoVA version that the only differences are that the NoVA version plays Control more often than the Wastedlife version, but in return, the NoVA version can keep more hands while it's forcing you to mulligan more. I had so many moments where I cant keep 1-land hands because Magam Jets arent Portents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

Could we get some boarding plans, too? And why such a small red package? I have, in place of your ridiculous amount of portents and tops (which I'd like to fit in) 4 magma jet 4 fire//ice. I'm at 61 cards, but I like it anyway.

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What are Jets and fire/ices for? What exactly is their purpose? DD to the dome? Not to mention the fact that by replacing 1cc cantrips for 2cc burn spells you are putting a huge strain on your mana base. I find that Pithing Needle in many ways plays the role that I would want out of extra burn, so I feel that anything more than Bolt is un-necessary. I just don't understand what extra burn spells give you. Removal? Not for most decks. I would play 1-2 Pyroclasms main (and I have) before I try Jet or Fire/Ice again. 2cc burn spells are inefficient in this meta game.

Boarding Strategies (this varies at times)

Solidarity:
-3 Pithing Needle
-2 Fledgling Dragon

+1 Top
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Control Magic

Dragons come out because they are a instant loss if you attempt to play them, no matter what stage of the game. Counterbalance is the card that makes it a nightmare for them. As for Control Magic, after discussing it with Madzur he says that bringing in Control Magic gives you another card to pitch to Force as well as a card that counters Turnabout when on top of your deck.

Iggy Pop

-3 Needle
-2 Dragon
-1 Forest
(You can take out one bolt as well if you feel the need to add another Naturalize effect)

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Top
+2-3 (combination of Naturalize and Ancient Grudge)

You leave in the bolts because of Swarm and the fact that you can recur them each time an opponent casts an ill-gotten Gains.

The counterbalance + top engine is solid here.

The Naturalize effects answer Layline, Defense Grid, and can blow up key artifact mana sources (LED) at the right times.

Goblins:

-2 Dragon
-4 (some combination of card drawing effects. I Still do not know what is correct to take out in this match up)

+4 Pyroclasm
+2 Ancient Grudge/ Naturalize

Ancient grudge gives you another answer to vial as well as dealing with Chalice of the Void if they are boarding it. A very solid addition to the boarding strategy imo.

Mirror (UGW)

-4 Bolt
-3 Needle

+3 Control Magic
+3 Counterbalance
+1 Top

Control Magic is so good it can't be repeated enough. It compliments the top/balance plan perfectly, both countering and stealing Mystic Enforces. And more importantly it deals with Jotun Grunt very well.

TES

- 3 Needle
- 2 Dragon
- 3 Bolt
- 1 Forest

+ 3 Counterbalance
+ 4 Pyroclasm
+ 2 Ancient Grudge


This is what I would go with initially, although I need alot more testing.

Red Death...

I really Don't know what comes in this matchup... (Anwar or Madzur, a little help here?)

I def think some # of Control Magics, Some # of Pyroclasm, and possibly some # of Naturalizes.

I have no idea what to take out especially since Needles help with both Jitte and Shade.


Thats a start on matchups, plz feel free to add or critique my choices since my testing in certain matchups is not as thourough as I would like.

Cheers.

Jet was around to make predict a draw two every time. Also, I think 7-8 burn slots are right for this deck, as it gives it a little more reach than the current 4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

Jet was around to make predict a draw two every time. Also, I think 7-8 burn slots are right for this deck, as it gives it a little more reach than the current 4.

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I know it seams like extra burn is needed but its not. But give both a try and see for yourself. By drawing better cards through more cantrips you get into situations where reach is crucial less often. I have never found Fire/Ice or Magma Jet an efficient use of my mana. I would rather run a Pyroclasm in the main which can, at times, circumvent the need for reach in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by URABAHN

You really should've searched the thread before posting this nonsense about Burning Tree Shaman, because it's already been discussed and it's awful. Just to recap, Fetchlands + Burning Tree Shaman = NOT a combo!

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You never played him, didn't you? And who the fuck said to play him along with Fledgling Dragon???

Then give me an example in which Matchup Fledgling Dragon is better than BTS.
Tell me.
And maindeck Needles are, in my opinion, only a Metachoice. With BTS you often don't need Needle anymore (except against Wasteland/Pernicious Deed/Disk maybe).

And he IS superior to Fledgling Dragon. Test it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

You never played him, didn't you? And who the fuck said to play him along with Fledgling Dragon???

Then give me an example in which Matchup Fledgling Dragon is better than BTS.
Tell me.

And he IS superior to Fledgling Dragon. Test it!

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Even though the post you were referring to was over 2 weeks old I'll bite.

Dragon is better than BTS in:

Any match up where evasion is relevant, any match up where a quick clock is needed (3 turns with Dragon alone), any match up where being green is a liability (against Dystopia/Perish), any match up where your opponent has creatures greater than x/3, and any match up where life totals are highly relevant (taking 2 from Fetching is a problem).


Enough with the BTS shenanigans ok? As you said, test it. It’s been shown to be highly suboptimal in every match up that has been tested thus far. And I don’t consider its ability to stop horrible combo decks as enough of a bonus to outweigh its short comings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Wastedlife's deck? Different mana base I assume as well, probably

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Pretty much. I even traded for his french trops. I just don't know what to cut for the tops main. Maybe cut the fire//ice's altogether? Counterbalance is pretty sweet tech. But I'm not sure I like control magic. I mean, to be fair, I havent' tried it. I guess I'll have to get around to that.

And, thanks for the boarding. Helped tons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

Jet was around to make predict a draw two every time. Also, I think 7-8 burn slots are right for this deck, as it gives it a little more reach than the current 4.

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I wouldn't (and don't) bother playing this deck with only 4 lightning bolts and the dragons.

I would, however, definatley condone +4 magma jet and +3 fire/ice. Four bolts just isn't enough in most cases. The burn can come in great handy, from finishing off control opponents who stabilize around 4-8 life, dealing with son of a bitch creatures like meddling mage, and so on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

Pretty much. I even traded for his french trops. I just don't know what to cut for the tops main. Maybe cut the fire//ice's altogether? Counterbalance is pretty sweet tech. But I'm not sure I like control magic. I mean, to be fair, I havent' tried it. I guess I'll have to get around to that.

And, thanks for the boarding. Helped tons.

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Another option to board in against Threshold is Vedalken Shackles. If they do side in Needles against you, that's one Needle down, and 2 more for your Shackles. Problem is, they're under pressure. expect them to dismantle their general card quality just to make poor attempts to shut Shackles down. But if you dont like Control Magic, it's cool. Other alternatives are Loaming Shaman, Tormod's Crypt, and/or Flametongue Kavu. I would say Crypt is the best since you have an awful SoTF MU, and Crypt does much more than FtK.

I'd cut the Fire // Ice for 2 Portents and 1 Top. 2 Tops can go in the SB for Counterbalance MUs.

BTW, Counterbalance is awesome. I won against Rifter because of Counterbalance.


@Happy Gilmore:

This is how I board for each MU...


Goblins:

-2 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Pithing Needle/Counterspell
-2 Sensei's Divining Top/1 Serum Vision, 1 SDT
-1 Predict


+4 Pyroclasm
+2 Ancient Grudge


Between boarding out Counterspell or Needle, I might say Needle. Here's why; Post-Board you already have 4 answers to Vial, two of which answer Crypt. I may keep the 3rd Needle in if I find out they boarded in a playset of Crypts against me, otherwise if they board in 3 of less, I'll board one out. Counterspell may be more important, since it stops them from restocking from broken Goblins, as well as keeping them in check.


Solidarity:

-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fledgling Drago
-1 Forest

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Control Magic


Mirror:

-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Pithing Needle

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Counterbalance
+3 Control Magic


IGGy-Pop:

-3 Pithing Needle
-2 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Forest

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Control Magic/Ancient Grudge

I'm more likely to board in Ancient Grudge, but they generally crack their LEDs unless they've gotten a Chant or Swarm to resolve. I havent tested this MU much, but I do know for a fact that it's very hard for them to get Chant or Swarm to resolve.

TES:

-3 Pithing Needle
-1 Forest
-2 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Werebear
-1 Nimble Mongoose

+4 Pyroclasm
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Counterbalance


Clasms get boarded in to deal with troublesome creatures like Swarms, as well as the dreaded Confidant which get's boarded in against you. Empty the Warrens is also troublesome; expect Clasm' to actually be good against a Combo deck...


RGSA and Red Death:

What Happy Gilmore asked, but add in RGSA as well...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Red Death...

I really Don't know what comes in this matchup... (Anwar or Madzur, a little help here?)

I def think some # of Control Magics, Some # of Pyroclasm, and possibly some # of Naturalizes.

I have no idea what to take out especially since Needles help with both Jitte and Shade.

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I asked MadZur the same question and I'll just repost what he told me in the PM:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadZur

I haven't played it against Red Death either. So I'm not too sure about things regarding those matchups (though I have done a fair bit of testing against Red Death with similar builds), but this is how I think I boarded against Anwar (I'm not 100% sure):

-3 Pithing Needle (I might have kept these in, because I knew he was boarding Crypt, but I don't think so.)
-2 Fledgling Dragon (Essentially, I replaced them with Control Magic. Adding Control Magic without taking out Dragon could be risky.)
-1 Counterspell (I think I like this, particularly because I was on the draw, but I'd probably do it on the play as well.)

+2 Control Magic (Answers all his threats, easier to play than Dragon, and I knew I didn't have to worry about Bolt after game one.)
+2 Naturalize (Mostly for Dystopia, but it could hit Crypt every once in a while.)
+2 Pyroclasm (Kind of unreliable; can generate card advantage, but is only guaranteed to kill one of his creatures.)

I was, of course, not completely sure what to do, hence all the two-ofs. The third Control Magic could come in, but it's expensive. I haven't tried Counterbalance here, but it seems like it would be too slow. I could definitely see bringing in the third Top, but it's a little slow too. More or less Pyroclasms could be correct.

I think what I boarded out was probably correct, unless Dragon is better than Control Magic. I definitely don't want to take out any draw against a black deck if I can avoid it, since recovering from disruption is key. I was happy with what I did there; Naturalize killed Dystopia and Control Magic stole Hypnotic Specter (if I drew Pyroclasm, I must not have played it). If I played the matchup in a tournament tomorrow, without getting the chance to test it first, I would probably board the same way.

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So what you guys were getting at was exactly what he said. He also mentioned that against Deadguy you might want to bring the rest of your Pyroclasms, being that most of their creature base is in the x/1 or x/2 category.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadZur

If I played against Deadguy in a tournament, and didn't see good Naturalize or Needle targets, I would probably board similarly to the way I did against Red Death, but bring in the extra Pyroclasms instead of Naturalize, and maybe try to find room for the last Control Magic.

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With his solid performances, I definitely think this version of the deck should get some more attention as so far it's showed itself able to put up good results.

Just for the sake of efficiency, would Threads of Disloyalty be better than Control Magic? Threads is 25% or so cheaper, so does the off-chance of nabbing an opposing Enforcer/Dragon make up for the cost, especially if a fair amount of the field is running LD and where 2UU is not always going to be given?

I think how he won most of his games was because of Counterbalance/Top, otherwise it would've been the same MUs being unchanged, and having to dedicate important SB slots just to fight something stupid and random. Counterbalance/Top is basically Armageddon, but much better. He tied against RGbSA. That is very suprising, considering the fact that that Midgame mirrors are very tough Match-Ups. I can also see Counterbalance/Top being very dangerous against another bad MU like Aluren, and perhaps Rifter (if played as a metagame deck in certain areas) as well.

White can easily do this as well, but the only differences is that White can win the Gro mirror Game 1 usually, but Post-Board agaisnt Goblins becomes weaker. I think Red is a better option since Pyroclasm can fight so much in the format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Just for the sake of efficiency, would Threads of Disloyalty be better than Control Magic? Threads is 25% or so cheaper, so does the off-chance of nabbing an opposing Enforcer/Dragon make up for the cost, especially if a fair amount of the field is running LD and where 2UU is not always going to be given?

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I don't like the fact of it only hitting 2 or less creatures. For 1 mana more, you can steal any creature with Control Magic, which is great for stealing their Enforcers or Dragons or Grunts or what have you in any other match you might feel it necessary. They're excellent for the mirror and fish match where LD isn't a problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Solidarity:
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fledgling Drago
-1 Forest

+3 Counterbalance
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Control Magic

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Nothing personal when I criticize your SB plan again:

But I don't think Solidarity will be overly impressed by Control Magic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bardo

Just for the sake of efficiency, would Threads of Disloyalty be better than Control Magic? Threads is 25% or so cheaper, so does the off-chance of nabbing an opposing Enforcer/Dragon make up for the cost, especially if a fair amount of the field is running LD and where 2UU is not always going to be given?

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A situation came up in the last tournament at The Frog where Control Magic was able to take a Darksteel Colosus, something neither Shackles or Threads can do. Threads of Disloyalty can't take Negator/Hypnotic Spectre/Akroma, and so on. I still think Control magic is still better than Shacles in the mirror since you need 4 blue sources to take a Bear or Grunt in the first place. It is not affected by Needle as mentioned, and it pitches to FoW.

At Anti~American4621:

Your board for goblins is probably about right, but the things you seem to take out against Solidarity and TES seem horrible. You go down to 6 threats and expect to put pressure on them? And you take out Bolt before Pithing Needle against Solidarity????? The reason for 1x Control Magic is as a filler, designed to counter Turnabout on the off chance and to pitch to FoW. I would never suggest boarding in all three.

And btw, if your boarding strategy is the same for a particular match up just say so. There is no need to post it multiple times and clog up the thread.