It's called versatility. Fuck, run GRIP if you want an out to Deed.
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It's called versatility. Fuck, run GRIP if you want an out to Deed.
Why Deed over, say, Seal of Primordium/Cleansing, which is cheaper to play (not to mention use), kills Counterbalance/Chalice/Trinisphere/Whatever, and can actually come down before a Counterbalance hits play to eliminate any longshot of the Counterbalance itself countering it?
Again, Meta Choice... Gaddock Teeg wrecks me and loads of decks around here run him in Side, primarily Survival and UGW Thresh w/ Counter Top. He's used to stuff both Storm Combo and Belcher. Gaddock Teeg essentially makes you have a 4-card deck. If you don't get Burning Wish and resolve it, you lose. Also, for matching against Belcher... if they immediately go off on EtW and I can't immediately tendrils off... It's a card that deals with all those issues, and then some. It lacks the non-counterability of Grip, but I find it useful for more matches instead of the single matchup against CB/Top decks. There is also the jank that runs True Believer and Meddling Mage. It is a pain to need a Burning Wish just for a Rough/Tumble to clear them. Not to mention that you need 2-4 more mana for going off... You can just EoT clear and go off the following turn.
You should be running Clasm, not rough/tumble. We don't play Xantid anymore. It seems that the creatures are your problem, not artifacts, enchantments, or whatever else. Honestly, if you're losing to astral slide; I wouldn't recommend Deed. I'd recommend goldfishing a lot more, TES is a very hard deck to play and you may just be playing it wrong - I'm sorry if I come off like a jackass here. If they slide out their Gaddeck Teeg, there's your chance to win. You don't need to blow anything up. Deed for ETW tokens? Burning Wish for Clasm wasn't good enough? ETW tokens still give you until turn 3 to win. I'm very rarely afraid of ETW tokens out of that deck. Deed still is a mana sink too, 1BG and then X. 6 mana to kill that Astral Slide you were talking about. I'd just goldfish a lot more, you may not realize some winning hands yet. I can't say this is you because I've never seen you play, but some people can't see the win in their hand. Especially without an LED. Just practice. I don't think you want answers, I think you want to be able to go off faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante
Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I do always want to go off faster, but lately, I'm holding back on EtW wins against certain decks... I run into too many times where I get my EtW tokens wiped off by everything from turn 1 Engineered Plague/Infest off a ritual to Engineered Explosives. People around here see a lot of belcher and run the same hate against TES... so it's not a deck that I can goldfish as much around here, I actually have to *play* it... This is a meta that... lacks things like Deadguy, Landstill, Loam decks... and is heavily Thresh, Ichorid, Belcher, Survival, and now, growing Stompy... Oh yeah, and janky burn decks that love to drop Pyrostatic Pillar. Just Burning Wish isn't enough... 4 cards to sneak a win through against a gauntlet of CB/Top dazes, and force of wills is not enough.
I've been holding back from playing TES ever since Lorwyn because people were stuffing their decks with Teeg... Tried it at Hadley because it was a different meta.
By goldfish I mean, pick up the deck and just play it by yourself. Find the quickest opportunities to win and take them. I heard the blast plan does a nice job on counter/top and force...
Also, since you're learning the deck by goldfishing, here's an obvious thing to do; pretend you're under pressure while goldfishing. It makes you play so much better when that situatution arises. Everybody who's good at TES would agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
What do you do for the Blast Plan in the case that, say, Threshold, plays Island/Go or Island/SDT or Island/Ponder, then follows with Counterbalance the next turn? What tends to happen to me is that I can't go off on turn one because I've got Blasts and/or Chants clogging up my hand, so I attempt to Blast the Counterbalance when they play it on turn two. They either Force and I'm stuck, or they Daze, and I wonder to myself if I actually play Simian Spirit Guide, because he's never in my hand to get around this problem for some reason. (Yet I always have him if they've got the Force.)Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
From there, I'm Counterbalance locked, and I can't kill it because if I left my enchantment killer in board Counterbalance stops my Burning Wish, and if I brought it in I either can't draw it or they counter it.
Is there a method of dealing with this situation that I need to know about, or am I just having an unlucky run and this doesn't happen as often as it seems to?
Well, playing around counter/top is very, very difficult. Much more than Island/Ponder, next turn Balance. I'll explain the easier answer first; what you want to do is bait. If they have Balance but no top - Play cards, don't sit there with your hand down your pants. You want that Threshold player to reveal, wait until the time comes to Blast that counterbalance or Burning Wish. They're bound to hit something bad at some point. I personally like baiting with 0cc artifacts or cantrips. With counter/top it's much more difficult, like above you want to bait. However, the goal is to get them to put top on top of their deck. In response to the tap, blast the counterbalance. If you're truely deeply afraid of Force, use Chant. Burning Wish is a much easier answer to counter/top because they always have a 1cc card, they don't always have a 2cc card. As for Daze, try not to walk into it but don't be afraid. Play that Lotus Petal, Mox or hold that SSG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Counterbalance is just a bitch, you have to practice against it a lot to get good against it, also drawing the win conditions is great. Just throw cards into the counterbalance, then ETW or Tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
From the other side of things, I absolutely refuse to reveal cards when Bryant is baiting the Counterbalance. Generally, I know the 0cc artifacts are bait, so unless I'm concerned about how much mana he can generate, I'll never reveal until I can counter a business spell or ritual - something that requires an investment on his part. The only time that ends up biting you is when you have a land on top and could have countered all his accel. Still, you weren't winning that game anyway.
I ended up 3-3 at the Virginia Dual Land Draft. I lose two rounds because of Krosan Grip in the sideboard. My sideboard was the same except no blasts and 4 Dark Confidant + 2 Grip. I hated Grip. What do people think should be the other two slots? I was thinking maybe thoughtsieze?
I've been maining +3 Thoughtseize/+1 Slithermuse -1 Infernal Contract/-1 Cruel Bargain/-2 Ponder, but I run into much... jankier decks out here. Draw 4's make it too vulnerable to the excessive burn/sligh I see here as opposed to Thresh et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
Thoughtseize sounds like it should be just fine for you. I may revise to do the same with Confidants due to how people sideboard against the deck now. I've been packing extra Empty the Warrens in SB against more disruptive decks, but it's more expected now.
EDIT - Hrm... is it so bad to run Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize perhaps, since one can try to predict when an opponent is trying to pack Stifle, Chant, et al... and flush them all out?
Actually, Bryant, I have been running a 2x SB Bound/Determined lately and it has been great.
It TOTALLY catches stax/Dstompy/general chalice players off guard.
They feel safe behind their wall of constant 0/1 countermagics, and then you kick em in the balls and drop 3 or 4 petals/chromes/LEDs :laugh:
Also, don't knock that it can remove to a mox to play a brainstorm, then next turn your winning rituals.
@all who wonder: With counterbalance, it's all practice. I don't know how long I have played and played to be able fight down Counter-Top correctly.
And sometimes, yes, you are just screwed and you can't beat it. Shit happens, you'll do better next game.
I recently had a good match against it, I posted it over on the storm forums ...
2x Pyroblast/REB is actually the BEST way to handle it, in my opinion, but I know it isn't always easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawg07/STORMboards
Get them tapped out and blast CB, then blast in response to moving the top.
With the way players are skewing to dance around this deck by countering the tutors and such... is it worth it now to go back to maindecking more win conditions? I.E. Go back to the days of IGGy Pop by just simply sometimes trying to force 2 stacked Tendrils through instead of exposing oneself to a counter for the expected tutor?
EDIT - Orim's Chant is not enough for me. I keep finding Orim's Chant cast in response to my own, CB at 1... but I might run into more UGW builds than most...
Serenity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
So... I have everything I need to put this together except the Chants. Is there any cheaper replacements for them? Abeyance? Pact of Negation?
Pact of Negation is a horrible card for this deck... because you have to dump it to go off on Infernal Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Best budget card to run while without chants is probably Xantid Swarm.
With all the blue running around, would I be able to perhaps get away with Pyroblast/REB maindeck in place of Chant? Or is Swarm still the best budget option? Perhaps Defense Grid? I wanted to be creature free (SSG not included).
Just remember that having creatures around makes your opponent's removal relevant, but they are forced to pack the removal instead of more hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Either can work, though. Don't use Pyro/REB maindeck. Autodead cards for some matchups absolutely suck for your hands.
There is no cheaper replacement that will do exactly what chant can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
They are truly necessary. It's the best pro-active combo protection you can have.
Abeyance isn't TERRIBLE, but two is so steep to have to use before you combo.
Xantid gets killed, fast.
REB isn't so hot maindeck, even in a large field of blue.
Pyroblast is leaps and bounds over REB maindeck just because you can cast it on anything, blue or not.
If you ABSOLUTELY CAN'T get Orim's Chant's, and your meta is CRAMMED with blue, Pyroblast would be my suggestion.
With 2 REB, 4 Xantid in the board probably.
Meh, I can technically get Chants, but I wasn't looking to drop $60 for a playset right now; just wanted to use a cheap alternative until I can unload $60 comfortably. If they're that necessary, then I guess I'll just wait to play TES until I get the Chants.
Out of curiosity... do you guys see any other TES players in your area... or even storm combo? The only Storm Combo decks that isn't Belcher I've seen since middle of last year was B.C.'s SI and a Fetchland Tendrils at Hadley. I'm based out of Eastern MA, but haven't been to RI/Wareham yet. I'm wondering how many players of this are actually out there...
In my Area I was the only player too until I started selling TES because the meta has changed to 50% Chalice Aggro 40% Counterbalance. But actually nobody outa here is playin a deck like tes.
Actually yes, there is another player in our meta, he doesn't come on Wednesdays, but he's around on Fridays.
He plays 3 decks, Death and Taxes, Dragon Stompy, and TES
A great D&T and DStompy player, be needs some with TES.
Only because he really hasn't practiced with it.
Our meta has a lot of blue, and it gets tough.
Plus, all the G/B Rock/Eva variants are enough to give combo migraines with their 3x maindeck extirpates and such.
Do you think replacing pyroblasts with bound/determined is a good idea ? I'm really having trouble, because il just lose so many games when i combo off and discard pyroblast, and my tutor gets countered ...
My meta is really, really blue heavy (along with some discard), and i see no counterbalance (it doesn't see to much play here in France).
Also, to answer Dilettante : I saw a kobolds combo player three months ago, but that's the only one I can remember. I don't think I have seen any in my meta since summer 2007.
I want to play bound/Determined. Except it sucks with Dark Confidant and costs UG. Maybe I'll try it. Altough, to me it seems
abeyance would be better.
EDit: If you don't play to play Chant, play Swarm. Blast is an awful MD slot.
Yeah, I think I'll run Swarm (even if it sucks compared to Chant). $1.49 per Swarm is easier to deal with than $19.99 per Chant.
What about Bound/Determined as a cheap alternative to that Chant slot? Determined shuts down Counterbalance, which Abeyance, Chant, and Swarm cannot.
EDIT: To support Bound/Determined, would +4 ESG, -4 SSG work? Rite of Flame, Petals, and other mana sources would still cover the R needed for Burning Wish, Shattering Spree, etc., but ESG would make Determined easier to cast.
I haven't played Confidant in TES for a while, but I know where you're coming from on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
Abeyance IS good, and I was thinking of trying that, too.
But I love how Bound/Determined overrides Chalice and occasionally Counterbalance.
Anymore, my SB might change to 4x Pyroblast 2x Krosan Grip again, but I really think Bound/Determined is good.
My meta has had a shift to include black and artifacts lately, so the 2 REBs have had to come out in place of other things.
I might give ol' Abeyance a shot again, because I still have some Japanese ones.
Also of course because 1W is easier than UG. We'll see, we'll see :D
No. Determined would be SB at best and SSG is just better. EtW, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, and Shattering Spree need the red. It shouldn't be that difficult to get UG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I do like it a lot and wonder how I never thought of it when I tried it in Solidarity. It is another awesome answer to CB. What would a SB look like? A lot of hate for counters.
4 Determined
4 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Igg
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
That may be too much because I would still want to add a Thoughtseize, more Shattering Sprees, etc, but it looks strong.
@Arsenal:
Run SSG... Don't forget that it's a counter-Daze, though it doesn't count as a spell. You don't have anything else that avoids the stack like that. It also *really* helps for correcting your mana to go off on the RoF route.
If you have the whole rest of the list, the only swap you'd need to make is Chant for Swarm... but I'd save up your trade stock and slide the Chants in over time... or wait till the Extended rollover, though I do not expect them to dip (note I said dip instead of drop) any more than to $12 or so.
ESG does the exact same thing... except produce red which is a must have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilettante
Don't run SSG and don't run krosan grip. They aren't worth it.
Off topic, but I just noticed the name change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
Abeyance just seems bad. Its like Chant, but worse because of the 2cc and doesn't stop the big issue here. Counterbalance is what pwns the deck and Determined can stop that if it resolves. I really want to try it, but Abeyance just seems bad.
Meh, this whole discussion really started by me being poor. I'm really liking Determined in that Chant slot, since I can't afford Chants atm. I think I'll play those instead of Swarm and see how it goes. Until I get the Chants needed, I'll use Determined, Swarm, Abeyance (in that order).
Does Bound/Determined have cc +2 to circumvent Counterbalance when it's on the stack? I don't see Bound/Determined's advantages over Abeyance/Xantid Swarm/Pryo Blast other wise.
Yeah ESG is never a good choice for deck that so loves its red mana.
Also, never forget that with SSG you are making Pyroblast the closest thing to FoW as it can be.
Hell, one time the Ichorid player was on the play and went LED-Breakthrough and started to dredge and I almost had to physically stop him.
Haha, remove SSG ... PYROBLAST o____0 lol good times :laugh:
If Determined resolves then an active counterbalance doesn't matter. If a Xantid Swarm attacks or a Chant resolves, Counterbalance can still be very active. If Abeyance resolves, Counterbalance itself is still active and countering whatever is equal to the top card. It comes down like this: if Determined resolves, Counterbalance is completely worthless. This means they need a counter in hand or a spell with CMC = 2 in their top 3. If Determined didn't resolve, Chant/Abeyance/Swarm/Pyroblast aren't resolving either. Pyroblast is the only thing that's similar in stopping CB, but it makes Top slightly more relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Right, but I doubt Bound/Determined is a better answer to Counterbalance than a Blast countering Counterbalance or putting Sensei's Divining Top on top of the deck. Bound/Determined is better in LED vs counter scenarios, but if the objective is to SB disruption that addresses Counterbalance, then it's a moot point. On average, Balance/Top is going to hit a 2cc card, so why SB it over Blast?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Like I was saying, it is also really good against Chalice. No one sees it coming.
Goblins lays out the chalice for 0 and suddenly it isn't buying them time because you just play Determined and lay your crap to go off.
Also, don't underestimate its power to be imprinted. Having a Chrome Mox that can make blue AND black is better than you think.
That's not as narrow as it looks, trust me.
Why choose one or the other... when you might be better off having both in your SB so that the option is there? Counterbalance is a card thrown off by imbalances. Why not do so with your solutions for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon