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Mm I thought that you had abandoned merfolks, Maveric :smile: .
What about including 1-2 sygg ? they could increase the CA ( even more than what standstill offers) and be occasional blockers ( they often become 2/4 or 3/5). Well, i know that you will always disagree me , but just a humble consideration...:laugh:
I went T8 with Merfolk at a 23-people tournament last week btw (I'm still playing Tidal Courier) I'm hoping for some decent Merfolks in Eventide tho..
i guess than , playing courier, you play an aggroish version also with bannerets. can you post it ?
Actually I cut Banneret for Grimoire Thief, which I haven't regret. Here's my "wannabe goblins"-list I'm using atm.
I play 4 Stifle SBQuote:
// Lands (21)
17 Island
4 Wasteland
// Creatures (27)
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Tidal Courier
4 Grimoire Thief
3 Tidal Warrior
4 Lord of Atlantis
// Spells (12)
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
why don't you play stifle MD, seriously? there are too much cards that stifle can be useful ( if not essential ) against: pernicious deed and EE above all, but also combo bombs ( EtW, tendrils, freezes)...
I can't see how you can play couriers without bannerets: they cost 4 , and unless you have vial charged a 4 ( which is slow and almost useless), it will cost you at least 4 turns.. i'd play something else , maybe stifles or some equips ( jitte, to become even more aggro).
I don't have room for Stifle in my version, and Vial @ 4 isnt too slow at all - (Goblins do it all the time), atleast it hasn't been a problem for me.
Theorizing and then personally budget projecting makes sense, I just figured since I would work towards aquiring any necessary un-budget things that it wouldn't matter, though I guess I would have had to explicitly state that to expect anyone to know what i meant. I'll correct the mistake in future lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Obviously Cursecatcher is not strong in his own right, but allow me to defend him for a moment: The first issue is mana curve. Running catcher gives you 8 turn 1 plays instead of 4. This is essential against combo, where you often have to daze on the first turn, seriously stunting your growth. Obviously Vial takes care of the problem if you draw it, but 4 is a small number as far as getting into a 7 card hand out of 60 cards is concerned. If i were to replace catcher I would probably want another turn 1 play. The second issue is synergy. They also make all your pumping merfolk slightly better, as without him, they must wait a number of turns for their effects to really be felt Catcher. Along with the Wastelands i will run when munny allows, Cursecatcher makes Daze a lot better. It isn't that catcher is a surprise, it's that many of the cards he hits are very bad when they must play around him. Dark ritual isn't very good when it nets 1 mana instead of 2, and rite of flame is even worse. Looking back, 2/3 of those reasons revolved around combo, so I suppose i can understand leaving him out if you expect more traditional metagames.
It seems that maverick's deck is more of a midrange deck, with a slightly worse combo matchup but with a significantly better ability to grasp initiative and keep it than traditional aggro-control decks in legacy. I would say my current list is definitely a tempo deck, rather than aggro-control.
@hightower: Do you still feel that your list runs like "goblins with FOW"? I think I like that as a concept. Also, did you feel that your lack of bounce every hurt you, or was your army able to run over most of the threats you encountered.
I'm trying to figure out what everyone agrees on, to gain some insight as to what make fishypeople worth playing. Looking at lists, these elements seem pretty universal:
4 Lord of atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
Allowing 18 slots for debate
Would you guys agree?
I agree, now we just need another Merfolk "staple" from Eventide, to add to that list.Quote:
4 Lord of atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
Allowing 18 slots for debate
Would you guys agree?
- And I still like my "Gobfolks" approach, I don't know if it's the best, but it's working for me.
If only merrow harbinger or sage of fables had been a teensy bit better, the deck could use a great 3-drop. We definitely missed out quality-wise on two key tribal cycles. At this point I really doubt we'll be getting anything really solid to work with in Eventide, I hear the tribes are going to dry up somewhat in favor of weirder things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightower
I have a few questions.
I dont really want to go the land destruction route because it is a tad too expensive, therefore, I was thinking a more aggro control route.
Here is my list.
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Grimoire Thief
4 Lord Of Atlantis
4 Tidal Courier
4 Merrow Reejery
4 Cursecatcher
3 Sygg, River Cutthroat/ Inkfathom Infiltrator
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
2 Remand/ Psionic Blast/ B2B
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault
15 Island
I think it is more of a tempo based version that could really benefit from the Cursecatchers and the the Syggs.
Also, I think remand is a good card that has yet to be mentioned.
It can act as a time walk that draws a card.
I have also thought psionic blast because of the reach, the crature destruction and the synergy with Sygg.
Also, any thoughts on Saprazzan Heir?
useless, oppo won't block a 1/1 to make you draw 3 cards. It is just a 1/1 for 2 mana, in a word: useless. Way better standstill in this deck, really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourleafedmonkey
well, if land destruction is expensive, what are mutavaults then ? :tongue:
To make a more aggro-controlish version, you could pack the counterbalance + top engine, put 3 BtB, way less merfolks, add standstill and stifle, in order to keep only the good 'folks, courier is very meh if you can't be enough fast to exploit it ( 4 mana means at least 4th turn, we 're not goblins).. thief in my opinion isn't that great, i would recommend 2-3 puresight merrow instead, they can clean yur draw sometimes.
I like psionic blast, but do you find comfortable with the remands ? being aggro means that you can't always keep 2 mana open to remand a spell... daes and fows cheat mana, so are way better...
The Mutavaults are in there in hopes that the price will go down after the rotation, lol.
I completely agree with you on the Remand, so I think I will go for the Psionic Blasts.
And if the Courier is too slow at 4 mana, what should be used instead?
the last question : STIFLE... that card is God. It reduces the number of merfolks ( 20 are enough), can be mana denial, stops mass revals ( dedd, EE), stop wasting your vaults.. does the coffee.Quote:
Originally Posted by fourleafedmonkey
Another folk to run as an alternative ? Shapesharer.. in 3 copies IMO.. fantastic with our 8 pumpers (LoA+ reejerey), also huge in copying oppo's shits (goyfs) and whateverelse.
I also pack Mutavaults, but the price won't go down easily, until at least 1 year when that fucking piece of shit of T2 will change sets to play with.Ah, back to basics are a bit antysingergic with mutavaults.. better to use them as SB bombs against landstill etc etc.. unless your meta is full of Non basics.
Vial @ 4 defeats half the purpose of Vial, which is to cheat a lot of your critters into play uncounterably and at the point that you really want them to land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightower
Vial decks that stretch a Vial out to 4 are essentially over-committing to the board, which is just as bad as laying out too many critters in front of a potential sweeper.
I'm not saying it's not a play that you might make occasionally, but it definitely weakens the board position when you do it.
I would cut the couriers and put in Confidants and/or Syggs.
You don't want a Vial with 4 counters and you don't want to pay 4 mana either.
That's the list I would play:
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Grimoire Thief
4 Lord Of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
3 Dark Confidant
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
3 Shapesharer
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial
2 Back to Basics
4 Mutavault
15 Island
3 confidant and no way to play them, omg this thread is becoming worse and worse.
Vial is pretty tech, you know.
But I'd definitely play Fetches + USeas.
"Someone made a mistake, let's spam!"
Omg I just c/p'ed a list from above instead of tipping my list completly new.
Just put 3 U-Seas and 5 Fetchies in...
we know your mistake, but evidently someone considers himself too superior for us poor noobs and says that this tread is becoming " more and more worse", uh ?:confused:
Not to play confidants, I have to say.Quote:
Vial is pretty tech, you know.
Yeah, I've been anticipating that.
Quote:
I dont really want to go the land destruction route because it is a tad too expensive, therefore, I was thinking a more aggro control route.
That sounds very clever, Windux.Quote:
Just put 3 U-Seas and 5 Fetchies in...
Plus I've said not farther than 1 page ago, that one could not post a deck for every budget (50€-100€-150€ etc...). We don't care what every people can afford, we are not your bank. The discussion is about the merfolk deck, which is NOT a budget deck. If you want to play budget (and competitive) play Ichorid or even burn. Merfolk cannot be budget (even if tribal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
That was unnecessary.
I was not asking for a budget deck.
I was simply stating that I dont want to go the direction of land destruction, I dont believe LD is as viable as it once once because of everything in almost every deck costing 3 or less.
I guess I will phrase my question a little differently then.
What would be a good aggro-control, tribal version of this deck?
I really think Sygg, River Cutthroat and Psionic Blast could be extra CA and reach.
Also, which do you think is better: Puresight Merrow or Inkfathom Infiltrator?
Elfrago: it looks very bad, does not block (except for chump block), looks a lot like a win more card.
fourleafedmonkey:
- the LD route is good because :
...- it protects you from the spells that hurt (humility, deed, wrath, disk, ...)
...- the fact that decks play little CC cards implies that the decks play few lands, which implies that it is easier to disrupt (against threshold : 18 lands against 12 mana denials, is it easy to play 2CC cards with 6 land? btw, I know they play cantrip and search for their lands, but anyway...).
...- the mana denial enable you to play standstill at any moment because you don't fear anymore to face a mishra or wastelands.
...- playing a lot of mana denial lands implies also that you play a lot of lands which implies that you can play rushing river at its best.
By the way, can you explain me this sentence if it was not a cost consideration?
I think that threshold is not good enough now to be played (ichorid/aggro loam/chalice decks are better than threshold). So I don't think that copypasting the threshold strategy is the way to go. I've also noticed that all the people who tried it don't believe in merfolks anymore.Quote:
I dont really want to go the land destruction route because it is a tad too expensive, therefore, I was thinking a more aggro control route.
really its is going to average out to be a 4/4 or a 5/5 attacking the turns after it just came down
if we could find away to land an oppisition, it becomes a house
This one is clearly worth playing with a pumper into play it's clearly a house.Quote:
Cold-Eyed Selkie 1 U/G U/G
Creature - Merfolk Rogue
Islandwalk
Whenever Cold-Eyed Selkie deals combat damage to a player, you may draw that many cards.
Illus. Jaime Jones #149/180 1/1
But... without one it's ass.
1/1 for 3.. I'd rather play Shadowmage Infiltrator then, atleast he doesn't die to Mogg Fanatic.
You mean that with no pumper it's bad ??? It's simply a bit worse than shadowmage infiltrator, which is a quite good card no ? The main question is : is it better than standstill. I'm not sure it's playable in addition to standstill, because we are missing slots. But removing standstill enables to play 1 land less (no conclave anymore) which frees at least 5 slots. The following list would be playable:
Folks: 22
4 Lords
4 Reejereys
4 Silvergil
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Wake Thrasher or 3 Jitte (yeah I changed my mind a bit about this card)
3 Shapesharer
Mana : 24
4*port
4*wasteland
12*island
4*vial
Disruption : 12
4*Daze
4*FoW
4*Stifle
Bounce : 2
2*Rushing River
SB :
3*Jitte
4*Propaganda
4*Tormod's crypt
2*Rushing River
2*Mind Harness
But who plays Shadowmage Infiltrator in Legacy? (noone) because it isn't good enough.
Anyways, I'm definately going to test the Selkie and Wake Thrasher - but I'm not impressed by either...
Unless you have B2B, I'd add at least a Pendelhaven to go with that guy. All the "your opponent now controls an Island" effects also got more attractive.
Random thoughts, mostly to Hightower and others with a more aggro interest:
If you're running Grimoire Thief, what about Mothdust Changeling? It's evasive and helps tap your Thief. I'm not sure that it can replace Cursecatcher in the 1-drop slot though.
Can we run under a Winter Orb? We can use Reejery to untap our lands or tap theirs, we can use Vial to get around Orb, and we can use Banneret to reduce our costs. B2B is better for most metas but people tend to use basics around here.
I thought the general consensus is that Vial slows down aggro by making you lose a turn, so why do you (Hightower et. al.) play it? Is it worth it to get around countermagic?
If you play Standstill, seriously consider Waterfront Bouncer. It's now a Merfolk, and it can bounce their dudes from underneath Standstill. Bouncer's also great for recurring Couriers.
I'm increasingly tempted to ditch Courier for another option (Selkie, Sygg, Curiosity) because Courier doesn't let me draw a lot of useful stuff like FoW, Jitte, Standstill, Vial, and I think my deck is leaning towards using fewer merfolk (in favor of those cards and others). Which among Dark Sygg, Selkie, and Curiosity are the most playable in your opinions?
Pendelhaven's pretty interesting because of all our 1/1s. Unfortunately, playing it early when we're trying to develop UU is not good, especially when we also have Mutavaults, Wastelands, and possibly Ports that don't produce U. If only there were a blue Urborg.
This is interesting. All of a sudden there are a lot of cool Merfolk to consider.
Wistful Selkie
Creature - Merfolk Wizard {ug}{ug}{ug}
Uncommon 2/2
When Wistful Selkie comes into play, draw a card.
With our current very good manabase, this guy probably isn't playable. But his ability is so good, he may be worth adjusting lands for.
and the aforementiened:
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Creature - Merfolk Rogue 1{ug}{ug}
Rare 1/1
Islandwalk
Whenever Cold-Eyed Selkie deals combat damage to a player, you may draw that many cards.
I think this plays a lot differently than Infiltrator. Infiltrator is commonly a sole target in a deck that is essentially a control shell. This guy will be part of an aggro deck. And will rarely be a 1/1. If you have a 2/2 Selkie and a 7/7 Thrasher coming at you, which do you block? Either way, it's going to hurt.
and I really like this one that Mav is talking about:
Wake Thrasher
Creature - Merfolk Soldier 2U
Rare 1/1
Whenever a permanent you control becomes untapped, Wake Thrasher gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Wake Thrasher seems like it can get very, very big. Even without any special stuff at all, he will probably be a 5/5 or a 6/6 when he attacks on turn 4. I big independent bitch is precisely what this deck has always needed. And unlike something like Threshold, where Tarmos don't have any evasion, this guy can easily get Islandwalk or see some tapped opponents via Reejerey. Speaking of Reejerey, those untap effects will be nice here too to say nothing of the pump.
But mostly what I like about the new Merfolk you guys mentioned is that they both have targets on their heads, unlike pretty much all of the additions we have bandied about up until now.
I wrote a really long reply, but Internet Explorer decided to fuck me up.. so I lost all the text
In short: Vial = must include (in my opinion) dodge counters/counterbalance etc.
Tidal Courier = not good, but the best thing available unless you want to take the deck a different direction (cut Merfolks for spells) Maybe he can indeed be cut for the new Folks
I will have to see what the 2 Eventide Merfolk (Thrasher, Selkie) can do in my aggro version. Hopefully my first assumption of them can be shown to be wrong.
Hightower, I think I am finally ready to quit Tidal Courier. Between the Selkie and Silvergill, there should be plenty of draw power. And Maverick, after quite a bit of time, you and I are on the same wavelength.
4 Wasteland
3 Rishidan Port
14 Island
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Wake Thrasher
I really, I mean really wish there was a way to fit Brainstorm in here. There aren't enough turn 1 plays.
Brainstorm isn't at its best as a turn one play, anyways. But I've no idea what you would cut to add Cursecatcher and Brainstorm.
EDIT - There's also, of course, Ancestral Vision.
And with all the more expensive but powerful Merfolk -- Selkie and Thrasher in addition to Reejerey -- Stonybrook Banneret might merit a second look.
Psst, you've got room for 1 copy of Brainstorm. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I'm a bit surprised at the total lack of Island-makers though. Perhaps we could drop some spells to 3-ofs to make room for Tidal Warriors? Selkie really wants to connect.
The same with :Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
-1 island
+1 rishadan
-3 jitte
+3 shapesharer
And here you are. I'm still not convinced it's better than standstill merfolks.
mmm.....
I tested the deck with new eventide folks yesterday and after some games, i sincerely asked myself: are these new entries worth the change ? I mean, i realized that trasher is really strong, but in oppo's turns is just a 1/1 which can be killed by everything.. and in any case, he doesn't have trample... and for what reguards me he never became more than 6/6... bah... The only way t use it very rightly would be to vial it oppo's EOT when he's tapped out, but... meh... this almost never happens.
I don't like cold eyed at all, sincerely. Why to play an ugly copy of shadowmage infiltrator ( which i consider to be a not-so-strong card in any case, btw) when we can keep more Card Advantage just with standstill, which is faster ? And these merfolks would make us play with lots of more 3.drops, so we should take the deck into a VERY more controllish optic in order to abuse our "heavy-cost"Folks..
... To be brief, I concluded that I like way more my old merfolks list.. mybe shapesharer could be substitued by 1-2 trashers, but I'm more keen on keeping my folks CC curve @2 and abuse of vial, surely, but not so much, instead of playing lots of 3-drops and relying (almost) exclusively on vial..
I still prefer "Landstill Merfolks", in conclusion. Trasher can be appealing, cold -eyed No at all.. to my eyes.
@Piceli:
Valid points, but I think it depends on how you add them. Islandwalk trumps both Fear and Trample, but it means you need to be able to give them Islands. Infiltrator isn't used because he can only draw 1, requires Black, and isn't a Merfolk. I know the 1 toughness of these guys all suck, but like Finn said, it's coming to the point where pretty much everything is a must-kill in this deck. And regarding the casting costs, there is always the Banneret (which itself walks :cool: ).