Hmmm... Shutting down your Counterbalances and Standstills (the best cards in your deck against Pikula like decks...) seems like a fantastic idea. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DOOM
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Hmmm... Shutting down your Counterbalances and Standstills (the best cards in your deck against Pikula like decks...) seems like a fantastic idea. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DOOM
I cut it for this reason from my board. A majority of the time I'd only have 1-2 Islands at most rest being Mishra's/Wastelands. I think a list running B2B would probally want to cut the Wastelands from the main for more basic Islands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DOOM
I like the concept of Standstill in a not-so-boring deck as Landstill...however, I run into situations where I drop it, then my Factory is wasted, and I have to wait forever for the next one (unless I got Top down, of course), sometimes benefitting my opponent more then myself. Anyone else have problems with running only four manlands as opposed to Landstills six or seven (plus Wastelands) ?
That happens sometimes, I Can't say you would want to run any more then 4 Manlands, as the colorless mana can sometimes hurt us. Often times this only happens against decks like Landstill where they just sit there with Wastes. In that matchup, I don't think Standstill should be even played to start unless you have at least 2 Manlands in hand. Against other decks that pack Wastelands (Aggro Loam, Goblins) if they have no relevant threats in play and a bunch of Wastelands they will almost always pop the Standstill regardless.
If your opponent isn't breaking your Standstill, either they're playing a deck that will function better under the Standstill than you (like Landstill, 43Lands, or Ichorid) or they're playing poorly. By not breaking the Standstill, they let you develop your manabase, draw into more Factories, and sculpt a perfect hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
And worse comes to worse, you can always break your own Standstill during their turn with a Brainstorm or Stifle and minimize the card advantage that they generate by forcing them to discard multiple cards at the end of their turn. You can avoid this by recognizing when and against what decks dropping a Standstill is a terrible idea.
While that's true, it also applies to them - they can just as well develop their manabase, draw into Wastelands, and sculpt a perfect hand. If they play more lands, they can often do it better. This is true for control decks in general, not only 43Lands. Seeing as how this deck doesn't play so many control components (and some cards that become outright useless, like Daze), I think the above situation of benefitting less from the Standstill than your opponent is not limited to the three decks you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
Back to basics is insane if you play it right. The landstill matchup is so horrible without them... I actually had to face 4c landstill and won 2-1 just because of two b2b in g2 and g3. Since you have 6 Basics and 6 fetchies to get them it shouldn´t be a problem to get some.
And it also helps a lot vs Thresh builds with lots of non-basics, like 4c or even 3, sometimes (specially if they pack Wastelands)
Well, as I said, you include a single chalice, as a Trinket Mage target to look for. With a single chalice and four Trinket Mage, you actually have the choice to play it AFTER resolving a counterbalance and AFTER your opponent breaks a Standstill. But hey, the best timing to play it is something you already figured out, I noticed :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by JanValentine00
I don't see any need for a Chalice if a CB is already in play. It would just hurt you more than your oponent.
What do you guys think of adding a second wincondition like Hoofprints?
Examplelist , i think they just forget the Factory's in this list, 55 card list.
I've played yesterday a few games with a semilar list and its not that bad, but really needed?
I'd say it seems like a win more card, you already have 3 Different ways to win the game. Sure, its great under Standstill but at that point factories are getting the job done or a Dreadnaught is swinging for win. Also, doesn't pitch to Force, which I'd say matters.
Im not really for it in my opinion as stated its a win more card, as far as a white card to put in the main, try Oblivion Ring it has been tested and been proven fairly useful as a really good removal against cards such as humility if it resolves etc, and also can setup for a standstill if a beater resolves with no factories in play. The deck's win condition is either win through standstill with a bunch of small beaters(factories, trinket mage) or go for the quick "W" with dreadnaught from what I've seen and experienced.. Why add a win more card to a deck that doesn't need it, if the deck was having issues with getting kill factors then I could see considering it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch@os
Tarmodual Tournament - Asociación Último Exilio
Rivas (Madrid), Spain
51 players
1) Jaime Cano - 4c Landstill
2) Pablo David Díaz - Eternal Garden
3) Pedro Juan Fajardo - Fatnought (Dreadstill)
4) Francisco García Vizcaino - White Stax
5) Alberto Romero - Affinity
6) Alberto Varela - Faerie Stompy
7) Victor Martín - White Stax
8) Oscar Reoyo - Suicide
This is really awesome, I hope more players start picking up this deck really nice to see others do well with it.
Can someone please elaborat as to which splashes are better against which decks?
Green Splash is really good against Countertop or just K-grip type hate (see Goyf), Red splash works so well against decks like MUC, Thresh, sometimes Landstill. White is awesome against an unknown meta, you get Mage and O-Rings.
Some thoughts of mine about splashing:
Since we already play 7-8 colorless lands we can't afford to have a non-blue basic ( or at least it is preferrable not to have one) in our deck and we will have to rely on dual-lands to use our splash cards.
Having one of our dual lands wasted sucks:
- the decks plays very few lands, so getting one wasted hurts
- our splash color cards are now stuck in our hands (we could play 2x of dual lands but IHMO it really hurts our manabase)
So our non-blue sideboard cards should either be:
- Useful aganist those decks that do not pack wasteland
- So game breaking that even casting only one of them turns the match in our favor
Usually the decks we will face in a tournament can be divided in the following categories:
- Goblins
- *****
- Landstill
- Prison decks (Angel Stax, Enchantress)
- Combo
- Grave based decks (Ichorid, Breakfast...)
- Non-Blue Control (Tombstone, the rock and such...)
- Varius Aggro
- Random Crap
So, based on those thoughts lets analize each one:
Goblins:
Red offers: Piroclasm (is it game breaking enough?)
Black offers: Engineered Plague (is it game breaking enough?)
Green offers: Tarmogoyf (is it game breaking enough?)
Blue offers: Hydroblast and BEB
Landstill
Green offers: Krosan Grip (is it game breaking enough?)
Blue offers: Annul
Varius Aggro (assuming they do pack wastelands)
Red offers: Piroclasm (is it game breaking enough?)
Green offers: Tarmogoyf (is it game breaking enough?)
Blue offers: Propaganda
*****
White offers: Jotun Grunt
Green offers: Tarmogoyf
Black offers: Smother
Blue offers: Threads of Disloyalty
Prison
White offers: Serenity
Blue offers: Annul
Artifact: Enginereed Explosives
(I did not consider cards useful in only one of the two matchups)
Combo
Maindeck should be good enough for combo, but anyway:
White offers: Meddling Mage
Black offers: Duress, Thoughtseize,
Blue offers: Arcane Lab, Trickbind
Red: Pirostatic Pillar
Artifact: Enginereed Explosives, Chalices
Grave Based(Ichorid, Breakfast...)
White offers: Morningtide
Black offers: Leyline, Planar Void
Green: Ground Seal
Artifact: Enginereed Explosives, Tormods
Non-Blue Control (Tombstone, the rock and such...)
I really have no idea...
There is probably a lot of things missing but I tried to exclude sub-par cards, things useful only for a specific matchups, and things that don't fit well in the (1) and (2).
IHMO white gets the edge on the others thanks to Meddling, and mostly, Serenity.
Thoughts?
Goyf is so good from the board for the simple fact he makes alot of your oponent's hate irrelevant (Grip, Grudge.) I've never really been a fan of MM with Wasteland build, you'd almost certainly have to drop the Wastes for MM splash I've seen it and it's sometimes very hard to get UW with the colorless mana we run.
this deck got a 1st out of 57
1) Saverio Magri - UG Dreadstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 FoW
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
2 Crucible
1 EE
1 Top
1 Crypt
3 Trinket Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Dreadnought
3 Strand
3 Delta
4 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tropical Island
4 Factory
SB:
3 Grip
1 EE
3 Propaganda
2 Crypt
1 Needle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Echoing Truth
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...?t=8090&page=3
Interesting things about this deck:
only one top
maindeck crypt
no maindeck needle
maindeck Crucible
Academy Ruins
It's an interesting list to say the least. I'm not sure how I feel on Crucible in the main but I definetally do like the Goyfs.
Random thoughts:
1. Wtf? 3 Dreadnoughts?
2. Crucible - are we really so much Landstill? (I don't think so)
3. 3 Dazes - bad as always
4. 3 Trinket Mage - since we have a pretty big Toolbox and Academ Ruins it is the incorrect number imo
5. Maindeck Tarmogoyf - I personally don't like that card in the maindeck, it just doesn't fit into the game plan. Coming suprisingly out of the sideboard it is an option tho. But not Mainboard - and not two!!
Well congrats to the finish tho, I like Dreadstill after all :laugh:
I added goyf a while ago. I can't see a good arguement against him really. He's a much better alternate win condition than Trinket Mage beats. He eat's up removal spells for Dreadnought. You can also play your own goyf before a Standstill if your opponent already has one out. This deck has little to no removal so matching goyfs is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
Can't say as I like Goyf in the main, G1 the oponent lacks the spells that hurt us the most anyways like Krosan Grip. Coming from the board would be alot more powerful seeing as the oponent wouldn't be seeing it coming and Goyf would laugh at Krosan's face all day ;).
Sorry, but I had a great build for a dreadnought deck that I have been testing, and I wanted input... all the other threads have died, so I will post the list here... plz tell me what you guys think:
lands//20
1 academy ruins
8 island
2 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
1 forest
4 tropical island
creatures//10
3 trinket mage
3 phyrexian dreadnought
4 tarmogoyf
spells//30
4 force of will
4 counterbalance
4 daze
4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
2 thirst for knowledge
3 vedalken shackles
1 engineered explosives
4 stifle
1 trickbind
sideboard//
3 tormod's crypt
4 propaganda
4 back to basics
4 krosan grip
The deck has been doing quite well for me, having a very good cc range:
5cc - 4 cards
3cc - 8 cards
2cc - 13 cards
1cc - 14 cards
This makes the CB engine quite strong... I also have plenty of islands so I can also support the shackles quite effectively, and with the beaters this deck has at its' disposal already it is pretty solid at just stealing possible blockers.
Thirst is more like a filterer/cantrip in the deck, and occasionally throws away an extra top or shackles... the ability to bring back those cards as well is also huge (making grip less devastating in the late game).
What do you guys think of the deck?
Truthfully...
Doesn´t looks good to me. Shackles seems way to clunky since you often have only 3-4 lands. Also the disruption plan goes down if you cut wasteland and as a result you loose a lot of flexibility.
I don't understand your logic here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
Your saying the lack of Krosan Grip is why Nought is so good in game one, I understand that. Yet sideboarding Goyf's against Grip seems like the wrong way to go. If any card should come in against Grip it's Meddling Mage.
If your playing Goyf in the maindeck he'll be there as a back up plan game one and game two. You'll save yourself precious sideboard space that can be used against bad matchups. It's not like your opponent is sideboarding out their Swords to Plowshare's for Krip so you'll probably want a good amount of threats to match their removal.
I've been testing Declaration of Naught against Krosan Grip. It's great if your not playing Meddling Mage. It gets around Orims Chant against combo, kinda neat.
Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, the removal the oponent does have G1 is all things that are easy to deal with (Counterbalance, Force.) Why maindeck Goyfs over Trinket Mage g1 when Trinket Mage has so many answers to alot of decks we do not like to see G1 such as Dragonstompy and Stax or Ichorid (for Crypt builds). Mage coming from the board isn't exactly ideal because you have to cut Wastes in order to reliable get him out since we run 7 Colorless sources. Having Goyf come from the board is basically the same logic you're using~he's another threat but G1 when they don't have their hate in I'd still have to say Trinket Mage is a much more viable slot to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Agreed Goyf does make a wonderful back up plan but game one is he really a necessary backup plan then what we already run? Most people don't maindeck too much removal and what removal they have I'd say is fairly easy enough to deal with. G2 and G3 he becomes alot more deadly for one, your oponent won't be expecting him and two he makes alot of your oponents cards pretty dead. A good sideboard plan would probally beQuote:
If your playing Goyf in the maindeck he'll be there as a back up plan game one and game two. You'll save yourself precious sideboard space that can be used against bad matchups. It's not like your opponent is sideboarding out their Swords to Plowshare's for Krip so you'll probably want a good amount of threats to match their removal.
-1 Trinket Mage
-2 Dreadnought
-1 Trickbind
+4 Goyf
I haven't actually tested this but It could certainly be good in the right meta.Quote:
I've been testing Declaration of Naught against Krosan Grip. It's great if your not playing Meddling Mage. It gets around Orims Chant against combo, kinda neat.
Change your member description to "I don't even read the cards I test".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Beat me to it. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Welcome to Split Second.
Lol @ Naught.
Goyf is good here for the same reason he is good in every single deck. Because he's a freaking vanilla 4/5 for 2 mana. OMG! That's so broken. He's a four turn clock for just two mana! That's freaking fantastic.
I think Goyf should be an automatic 4 of in every single deck there is in every single format there is. I am not even joking.
I can't think of a single deck that wouldn't instantly jump up a tier by splashing green to play Goyf. :wink:
Atleast in a deck with a creature based win condition that plays Standstill and splashes green already anyways.
That's garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
I think your sarcasm detector is broken.
Oh thank God you were kidding, for a minute there I thought you were a complete moron :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
:laugh:
Seriously though. I think Jotun Grunt would be fantastic in this deck as 2/3 of.
Not only does it hate on Ichorid, it's a fantastic tool against Threshold, Goyf, Tombstalker, Mongoose, Mystic Enforcer and pretty much most of the entire format. Not to mention that it's a great beatstick.
It's likely very maindeckable as a two of.
I highly recommend testing it. Hell, I bet threshold would run Jotun Grunt too if it didn't interfere with their entire gameplan.
Here is what I'm going to be running from now on...
My Recommended List:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Trinket Mage
//Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
//Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
1 Trickbind
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Back to Basics
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
Honestly, my only remaining concern with this deck is, what to sideboard out against what matchups. I find sideboarding out cards is very difficult, as the mainboard is extremely tight as is.
Ichorid's strategy is to dump their ENTIRE library into their graveyard by turn 3. Grunt hits two cards by turn 3.
It hates Ichorid with the same skill Extract hates TES.
It doesn't do much relevant at all in the maindeck. It can be excellent sideboard hate against Thresh, but I don't know if this deck even needs it.
The card is strong, this is something I have been saying in T2 for a long time (I ran 3 MD in Boros to tremendous effect). However, Grunt runs partially counter to the gameplan of Still, so I could not see t MD.
SB it would depend on the meta, but is possible.
You can slow Ichorid a bit with FoW. It removes Bridge from Below if they play it too early etc.
How does it run counter to this deck's game plan?
Does this deck run Tombstalker?
Does this deck run Tarmogoyf?
Is it a pure combo deck that doesn't care about attacking?
Is it a pure control deck that doesn't care about attacking?
Those are the four things that kept Jotun Grunt from being played in other decks.
But none of that applies here.
It works great with Standstill. You can lay it and lay Standstill and beat for a few turns thus forcing them to want to break Standstill asap. Else, it attacks for a while under Standstill and then dies, but only after bringing them so that I attack from Dreadnought will finish them off, and gives you something to do till you draw into manlands.
How about it doesn't deal enough damage to get even close to winning under a Standstill?
Grunt doesn't have a home in Dreadstill you already have good GY hate in the form of 3 tutorable Tormod's Crypts. As far as beats under SS Mishra's Factory works just fine. And in the addition beater department you'd be surprised how often 2 factories and a Trinket Mage get there, but if we really wanted another we would go back to Green Splash side another Tropical Island and throw Tarmogoyfs in the board in addition to the Krosan Grips. So please enoug of this, it's nauseating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Deck's plan:
Control games viciously. Drop giant dude for the win.
It takes THREE successful attacks for Grunt to actually shave a turn off of Dreads attack. Even then, you only buy a turn. You could use those slots for either someone who is nice enough to stick around and keep bashing (Tarmogoyf) or for some answers to creatures (StP/Wrath).
So they will kill us turn 4 instead of turn 3? Awesome! We still lose well under the time limit in that circumstance.Quote:
You can slow Ichorid a bit
It is better than Grunt MD. Overall faster, more resilient, more evasive, and only takes two attacks (both more likely to connect too) to shave of a Dread turn. This card can even go lethal on its own reliably.Quote:
Does this deck run Tombstalker?
Do the lists that win run it? Yes, yes they do. Ergo, this deck does, doesn't it?Quote:
Does this deck run Tarmogoyf?
Since white based combo was popular anyway. Everyone knows FT and TES started white, but decided to branch out their options into black.Quote:
Is it a pure combo deck that doesn't care about attacking?
No such thing at this point. However, this is a typical control deck where you want to show an attacker only when your opponent's defenses are managed. You then use a powerful/resilient creature to quickly take them down to 0.Quote:
Is it a pure control deck that doesn't care about attacking?
In effect, the answer to that question is "Yes."
Other considerations include:Quote:
Those are the four things that kept Jotun Grunt from being played in other decks.
What slot would it take up? Is the fact that it doesn't last worth the fact that this card vanishes after a relatively short period?
How long can I sustain this card? Can I fill my graveyard enough to keep it around for 2-3 turns, or even beyond?
Is the fact of any evasive abilities detrimental due to its limited time of existence?
I am sure there are more if you look for them.
I already have disproved one of your four original points and showed that there are more that you did not consider.Quote:
But none of that applies here.
For this to be true there need to be at least 2 cards in one graveyard and four in another. Given that this would be getting on later in the game, if you can Control the game to the point where you can safely drop the Grunt, wouldn't Dreadnought simply be the superior card at this point?Quote:
It works great with Standstill. You can lay it and lay Standstill and beat for a few turns thus forcing them to want to break Standstill asap.
Okay, so it dies after 1-2 attacks, great. You know have a Standstill and, thanks to your astronomical manland count of 4, a very small chance of finding the lands you want until they break the Standstill on their terms. God help you if they have Wastelands, because that may be enough to prevent you from winning entirely.Quote:
Else, it attacks for a while under Standstill and then dies, but only after bringing them so that I attack from Dreadnought will finish them off, and gives you something to do till you draw into manlands.
The situation is just too contrived to be considered viable; this is particularly so because you are relying on Grunt to hit multiple times when, often, it will just not have the number of cards in graveyards to do so. In order for there to be the 8 in a single graveyard, you often have gotten the game to the point where Dreadnought will already be able to come down and, in that case, it will simply take THREE turns less than Grunt--->Dreadnought would (unless, of course, you foolishly played both near the same time. Even then, it would take longer and simply add pointless risk.).
Nope it doesn't (like I said it would be in the side at best if we were too). But the rest of your points were pretty valid so it can slide. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith