[Deck] The Rock

i think what Dzra wanted to tell you is simply that the discard-package is somewhat like "deal with eventual threats before they even get to become one"

i played for a long time a controlish rock-list, going for 1-for-1-trades the whole time,.... it works yes, but i always felt like lacking in CA because it was allways me who had to answer their threats, with the 2-for-1 discarder its a totally different story because they will lose or a threat or an answer to my threats before they will be able to play it, and this is awesome

and what you may find funny, compared to my previous list, the only thing i lost in maindeck of my boardcontrol-suite is a single deed, not more, but now since i am the more aggressive deck i am able to choose when the deed will blow up, not like when i used the controlish build (that time i eas allways desperately searching deeds with fetch and top, so i could sweep the board clear so i would not die)

the only relevant thing that changed between my list now with discard, and my previous list is that, i do not need the kitchen finks and witnesses any more to save my ass, because the discard package is doing that allready

and for your main argument of minimizing bad draws....... well there is a reason allmost every rock-list is playing divining tops as a 3-of or even as 4-of, that way you will never have bad draws

PS: excuse my bad english for now (if it was bad, i don't know), i just got up from bed and i still got a little hangover from yesterday

Long time reader here, since Legacy seems to be slow no matter what forum I go to, this one seems to be the busiest. As a long time avid fan of Rock variants, I'd like to either help others with my experiences and points of views as well as I receive direct information from others as well. I have been tinkering with my current build for over a year after dismantling my Vintage Turboland deck just for the fact that I cannot find Vintage tournaments anywheres, and Legacy is growing. So w/o further adu:

Junk Rock: 60
Creatures: 18
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Dark Confidant
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Desolation Angel

Sorcery: 12
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Vindicate
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Identity Crisis

Instant: 4
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate

Artifact: 5
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Enchantment: 1
1x Pernicious Deed

Land: 20
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Stirring Wildwood

S/B:
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Pithing Needle

This is what I remember, though looking at it, it seems short on land even though the most I'd need in a game 7 mana. The curve is relatively low, but I feel is still safe from Countertop based decks (2 being the idle Countertop number).

Creatures:
18 creatures seems a bit high, but I'm a classical rock/aggro player and like it. Creatures are both the threat and an answer. I try to utilize my creatures to their full potential.
Desolation Angel? -I have always liked this card and with KofR, it's generally a game sealer, even w/o the kicker. I could try Armageddon but I'd have to acquire them first. I like land sweeping effect and feel it should be used if using W in a Rock deck. That and I just don't see Sinkholes fitting here.
Only 3x Dark Confidant - have been looking for one for the past few months, would rather not pay $25 for the card and s/h. Working w/ what I have, since I only have 3, I cut the Top count down to 2.
Eternal Witness - Cheap, helpful, can be recurring with Stronghold, can give me answers when needed.
Doran, the Siege Tower - I'm just testing him out, it's a new add to the deck. Could use suggestions in place of him. Land?

Sorcery:
Inquisition of Kozilek - I just dropped Thoughtseize for these. Main reason, I only have 3x Thoughtsieze. Am really unsure if I should drop Identity Crisis and these and add 2x Hymns and the 3x Thoughtsieze. Second reason would be is that between Thoughtseize and Night's Whisper (which I have also recently dropped) I ended up bringing myself into killing range for my opponent. Tried Duress and it just didn't seem to fit.
Gerrad's Verdict - Have been using these for a long time and I like them, but in comparison to Hymn to Tourachs, it's hard to choose.
Maelstrom Pulse - reason one, I have only found 2 of them in the past year (w/o paying an arm and a leg via online) and I think Pulse is a great card.
Identity Crisis - This card is amazing . . . when it's used. This card cripples people. If more explanation is asked for, I can expand.

Instant:
Extirpate - I feel that at least 2 of these should be M/D, they are always useful.

Artifact:
Jitte - The card is a powerhouse. Nuf said I think.
Sword of LaS - Variety is nice, this is a new add to the deck, both of the trigged abilities are helpful, esp. the life gain so I can last a long game. I am trying to get Sword FaI as well to add to the variety.

Enchantment:
Pernicious Deed - It's rock, or at least a variant of one. At least ONE should go in. It's a great answer and shy of being countered, can take care of many annoyances. One should be M/D

Lands:
This needs the most work. What I have works and works well. I'm trying to get 2x Marsh Flats and at least 2x Scrublands, but I do not want to become to reliant on non-basics.
Stirring Wildwood - I never really use this, it's more of a backup thing, could use other advice in place of this.

I really need help on my S/B, I have always been bad with setting up and utilizing my S/B. The biggest issue I've had to deal with is ANT.

Where's the goyf? Main reason, I have none and can't afford to trade for them or buy them. I feel there are other great creatures to utilize in place of goyf.
Mox Diamod? Great card, but late game is useless to me. I have plenty of turn 1, 2 and 3 drops, so I do not feel that I need them. Also, I traded off my only single and cannot afford to get four of them.

So thought's or ideas?

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Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

Junk Rock

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I think Desolation Angel is too expensive for Legacy. (Which is very sad, considering that the artwork depicts Selenia, Dark Angel) Also, I believe you could replace Gerrard's Verdict with Hymn to Tourach. I consider Gerrard's Verdict a risky card to play in Legacy, since quite a lot of decks will be very happy with you providing them with a discard outlet. Finally, in my opinion 19 land is not enough, you need about 22.

I've kind of wanted to run Hierarch. I get a feeling that they'd be good mojo. But I just can't find the room. Late game, they're dead draws. Turn 1, Mox Diamond is better. You wouldn't want to play Hierarch on T2 any more than the Mox, but it doesn't lead to first turn Confidants and Hymns. Once on the board, it's more useful than the mox, but unfortunately, it doesn't fit either Rock plan, really.

Doran is not good enough to make the cut. KotR will always outclass him. So there should at least be a 4th Knight and a 4th Confidant. I know you said they're expensive. You're right. But if you're going to post in Established, money shouldn't be a consideration. That's more for the Casual and Budget section.

Vindicate is almost always better than Pulse if you're running Wasteland. Yes, there will be times you could hit multiple Vengevines or multiple ETW tokens. There will be far more times when 8 LD spells can put someone off a color or slow them enough early game that you can cripple them. Especially if you're going first and opening with Top so that you can smooth draws while savaging their hand and land. Speaking of which, Top is more important in this deck than just a way to avoid damage from Confidant. Top may not draw extra cards, but it prevents dead draws, which is basically the same thing. With a listing as loose as this, there should be 4. I wish I could run 4. I may find room for a 4th one anyway, I just don't know what I could possibly cut from my listing.

You should have either Bojuka Bog or Sejiri Steppe main. Personally, I find Bog more useful. I would also pack Crucibles in board. Some matchups can be won with Wastelock. With Deed and Waste against Affinity, you can wreck their mana. Recurring wastes are good against 43 land. Good against Landstill. Basically Affinity and any deck that isn't racing you G1 is a good matchup to board them in against. Can be very effective against Stax. Stax is bad, but you're slow, and that makes you Stax bait.

I feel that Teeg out of the board is unecessary. A 4th Needle and a 4th Extirpate would be better. Needle is better against Jace and Extirpate is always welcome against storm combo. With CotV on 0, Extirpating a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) can be backbreaking.

I want Inquisition of Kozilek to be better than it is. Being able to grab 3 and under cmc seems really good, but it doesn't get FoW, NO, big fatty creatures (Emrakul, Iona, etc), Smokestacks, Siege-Gang Commander, and plenty more I'm sure. If you know for a fact that no one is going to play a threatening card with 4+ cmc against you then cool, but if there's even a chance I'll be staring at a Natural Order with my Inquisition, I'd go with Thoughtseize.

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

Turn 1, Mox Diamond is better. You wouldn't want to play Hierarch on T2 any more than the Mox, but it doesn't lead to first turn Confidants and Hymns. Once on the board, it's more useful than the mox, but unfortunately, it doesn't fit either Rock plan, really.

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Mox is only helpful turn one/two in comparison to Hierarch is a weak observation. I do not see that being the only reason why I should use Mox over Hierarch. It gives me a potential good turn 1, granted, but aside from beefing my KotR later in game, which Hierarch can also do, it's almost a dead card. It does not interact w/ Deed. I'd have 1 way of getting a Mox back to my hand, if I wanted it at all. I would at least have a few ways to get Hierarch back into my hand if I did use a Deed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

Doran is not good enough to make the cut. KotR will always outclass him. So there should at least be a 4th Knight and a 4th Confidant. I know you said they're expensive. You're right. But if you're going to post in Established, money shouldn't be a consideration. That's more for the Casual and Budget section.

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Your right, even though I haven't play tested it, I took out the Dorans and added a 4th KotR, working on the Bob. And yes, I do have a limit when it comes to spending money on cardboard. I work fulltime, go to college fulltime and have a family to take care of, reasons like those shouldn't be reasons that I should go to a Casual/Budget forum for EXPERIENCED advice about a deck that obviously is more then a mere Budget/Casual deck. Just b/c I lack 3-4 semi-expensive cards that don't complete a playset should mean I should I go to a Budget/Casual deck. I thought I came to these forums for good reason . . . moving on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

Top is more important in this deck than just a way to avoid damage from Confidant. Top may not draw extra cards, but it prevents dead draws, which is basically the same thing. With a listing as loose as this, there should be 4. I wish I could run 4. I may find room for a 4th one anyway, I just don't know what I could possibly cut from my listing.

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The loose listing is slowly being solidified. I know Top is good, but it is not key stone to the deck. I'll up my count to 3 and work from there on whether I should run a 4th or not. As it is, finding what to cut what for what is getting difficult.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

You should have either Bojuka Bog or Sejiri Steppe main. Personally, I find Bog more useful. I would also pack Crucibles in board. Some matchups can be won with Wastelock. With Deed and Waste against Affinity, you can wreck their mana.

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Dropped the Wildwood for a Bog, so now I'm running 4 ways to deal with Graveyards M/B. I've tried playing with the Crucible or Life from the Loam setup for recurring Wastes, but found the space was better used otherwise. It's good, but unless I make room from 3 Crucibles, it's too much of a risk to just play 1 and hope I get one early. There are other means in dealing with decks you have mentioned other then waste/lock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

I feel that Teeg out of the board is unecessary. A 4th Needle and a 4th Extirpate would be better. Needle is better against Jace and Extirpate is always welcome against storm combo. With CotV on 0, Extirpating a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) can be backbreaking.

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Dropped Teeg though he was mainly in my S/B for Storm decks, as that's my biggest issue. Working to get a 4th Extirpate. With so much graveyard hate, should I just drop Leylines from my S/B or should I still keep them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by makochman

I think Desolation Angel is too expensive for Legacy. (Which is very sad, considering that the artwork depicts Selenia, Dark Angel) Also, I believe you could replace Gerrard's Verdict with Hymn to Tourach. I consider Gerrard's Verdict a risky card to play in Legacy, since quite a lot of decks will be very happy with you providing them with a discard outlet.

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I'm not sure if I feel the same w/ Desolation Angel being too expensive. 5-7cc is not that hard in Legacy. Would you have any other suggestions as to what I should replaced them with? 2 lands to bring my count to 22? If so, what lands would you choose and why.

Gerrard's Verdict is a good card, Hymn could also be a discard outlet that my opponent could care less about, the biggest difference being is that chances area that I can cast Gerrard's Verdict on turn 2 are higher then Hynm b/c it's not a solid BB. I'm lacking Mox Diamonds and that retrains me from being able to utilize Hymns to their best potential.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I want Inquisition of Kozilek to be better than it is. Being able to grab 3 and under cmc seems really good, but it doesn't get FoW, NO, big fatty creatures (Emrakul, Iona, etc), Smokestacks, Siege-Gang Commander, and plenty more I'm sure. If you know for a fact that no one is going to play a threatening card with 4+ cmc against you then cool, but if there's even a chance I'll be staring at a Natural Order with my Inquisition, I'd go with Thoughtseize.

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Yeah, they are nice, but Thoughtseize is just that much better. Added them back and am looking for a 4th to M/D.

If Inquisition was CMC 4 or under, I'd be playing it over Thoughtseize everytime. Alas, this isn't the case.

-Matt

Leylines probably aren't necessary. I main 4 Extirpates and a Bog, I don't bother with my GY hate out of board. Would Leyline be useful against something like Dredge? Probably. But is it worth a slot in my 75? Not really. With the Hierarchs, I would replace Deso's with 1 land and 1 Plow. StP is good ju-ju. Personally, I like having Edict main too, but even with Edicts, I'd never go under 3 StP's.

I completely understand having a limited budget, I'm not implying you're some kind of inferior because you're not spending hundreds of dollars on pieces of cardboard. I sold the last of my stuff off after GP: Chicago. Now I play on MWS or borrow cards maybe once a year for something. And I know that the Budget/Casual forums aren't as good. You don't get as many good people looking there. But at the same time, it is a budgetized version of Rock that we're talking about.

One other thing, in regards to Waste lock. Remember that KotR can compliment the strategy, since he can fetch wastes out of your deck at the expense of duals. And if you've got SDT down, that means you're doing a lot of digging through your library; every turn is a fresh 3 cards to look at. You find things rather quickly that way.

So lately, I've been thinking about Dueling Grounds in the board. A lot of Rock variants still pack Plagues for tribal decks, but almost across the board, I think Grounds is better. It's certainly far better against Fish; with at least a dozen Lords in every deck, it's almost impossible now to lock them out of the game with double Plague on Merfolk. It's still somewhat effective against Goblins, but it doesn't stop them from swarming.

With 1 attacker a turn, Goblins does not have a serious threat outside of SGC. Coralhelm is Fish's only real threat with Grounds on the table. We've got enough removal to deal with those threats while just hammering with Goyf or KotR. Especially if you can jump over with Elspeth or swing through with Steppe.

Anyone else have thoughts?

I like the card a lot in the deck. I chose to run more Paths in the board over it or Plague since Path is nice in the mirror. But Dueling Grounds fits nicely in the deck. It's especially abuseble if you use a lot of exalted guys and with Maze of Ith shenanigans. If you try it out definitely let us know hoe it goes.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I like the card a lot in the deck. I chose to run more Paths in the board over it or Plague since Path is nice in the mirror. But Dueling Grounds fits nicely in the deck. It's especially abuseble if you use a lot of exalted guys and with Maze of Ith shenanigans. If you try it out definitely let us know hoe it goes.

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I see this as a S/B card, as Dzra said, I would be interested in hearing some results. Bonus for me since I play with Noble Hierarch's M/D and Qasali Pridemage S/B.

I don't run Maze, but I may have to jam one in. I'll do some testing against Fish in the morning and get back to you guys.

@ Spikey:

Jamming in a Maze and going to 61 isn't a big deal with this deck, to be totally honest. I know a ton of people hate it, but you've got a search engine and the proper amount of lands anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.


With regards to dueling grounds, it seems like a good card against the horde, especially with Maze. Plus, Maze works wonders by allowing you to attack, deal damage, and untap. It's the sex with a 12/12 KoTR.

With regards to Leyline, did you mean of the Void or Sanctity? Sanctity helps your Dredge, Rock/discard mirror, Combo, Jace, Burn, Zoo, and other matchups/hate (ex. Wheel of Sun and Moon or something else that targets you). I'd say it deserves a slot in the 75. If you were referring to Void, then it depends on your metagame. If you have all Dredge/Angry Salad Survival in your metagame, playing 4 Pate, 1 Bog and 4 Leyline isn't a terrible idea.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

@ Spikey:

Jamming in a Maze and going to 61 isn't a big deal with this deck, to be totally honest. I know a ton of people hate it, but you've got a search engine and the proper amount of lands anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.


With regards to dueling grounds, it seems like a good card against the horde, especially with Maze. Plus, Maze works wonders by allowing you to attack, deal damage, and untap. It's the sex with a 12/12 KoTR.

With regards to Leyline, did you mean of the Void or Sanctity? Sanctity helps your Dredge, Rock/discard mirror, Combo, Jace, Burn, Zoo, and other matchups/hate (ex. Wheel of Sun and Moon or something else that targets you). I'd say it deserves a slot in the 75. If you were referring to Void, then it depends on your metagame. If you have all Dredge/Angry Salad Survival in your metagame, playing 4 Pate, 1 Bog and 4 Leyline isn't a terrible idea.

-Matt

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Also leyline of Sanctity is good vs. Tendrils. I think 4x extirpate and 1 bojuka bog in the 75 is enough against any graveyard deck. Adding any amount of leyline of the void just seems like complete overkill.



Anyways I've been running to problems lately with the fast zoo decks. It seems like I am just entirely too slow. I used to run kitchen finks in the sideboard when zoo was big but it never really seemed to cut it. I'm not talking about big zoo decks as those are much easier because I can stabilize before they kill me. The problem I run into is the steppe lynx/heavy burn kill you asap zoo deck. I think the two best answers here is kitchen finks/loxodon hierarch. I haven't tried the loxodon but it seems like this might be a bit better than the finks, the only problem is getting to 4 mana. He's the list I run:

4 bob
4 kotr
4 tarm

4 stp
4 hymn
4 thoughtseize
2 gerard's verdict
3 vindicate

2 EE
3 Mox Diamond
3 Top

23 lands which include
1 bojuka bog
1 maze of ith
4 wastelands
1 horizon canopy
6 fetches
4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
3 basics
2 swamp
1 plains
7 duals
3 bayou
3 scrubland
1 savanah

Sideboard:

2 Ghastly Demise
3 Extirpate
3 pithing needle
1 tabernacle
2 deed
4 kitchen finks



Two demise come in and yes they work quite well vs. zoo. Also the 4 finks come in but it seems like not enough still. Usually take out 4 bob and 2 thoughtseize. Any helpful hints/suggestions?

@magicsk8ngenius

I have been playing with a list similar to yours and I have been very impressed. Only difference is that I play 1 deed and 1 EE. and a 4th vindicate since I run 61 cards in my list. I still can't decide if I should stay 2 P.deed or 2 EE so I split them, to see which one is actually more usefu in my testl.

Regarding your zoo match up, if kitchen finks and ghastly demise doesn't work. I guess you are just terribly unlucky against them. I mean 4 finks and 2 demise out of the sb. I think its already quite overkill, having 2 EE 4 stp 3 vindicates 2 ghastly 4 kitchen finks. Perhaps you can also hold on to your gerrards verdicts and your extra lands if you don't need them. If those burn or zoo decks throw out their hands fast enough, verdict will be useless late game.So hold on to your gerrards verdicts and use it on yourself. Also, stp can be used to KotR if your in soo much trouble which should gain you around 8-10 life.

White has a lot to offer as traditional anti burn cards.


I am still contemplating with mox D. vs birds/noble. Birds and noble can block and offer exalted, but Mox d offers 1st turn sheenigans.1st turn noble or birds usually get killed now a days. im not saying thats bad, but it can break your deck if your looking for the 3rd mana which is very very very important for the deck.

I would agree with you that Hierarch is better. Paying 3 for a guy that will almost never trade straight up for a creature is rough. Beating Cat Sligh is about removing their creatures early and overmatching them later. Early game, their removal is as strong as yours and cheaper. Much like there is a massive difference between a 2 power creature and a 3 power creature, the difference between 1 or 2 mana and 3 for Vindicate is huge. A turn you Vindicate something or drop Deed is a turn you're doing nothing else. At the same time, the difference between 3 mana and 4 is relatively minor. Either way, you're likely not doing anything else that turn, but Hierarch gives you the full 4 up front, can't be Mancered out and will do better than trade with Nacatl in combat. He might even be able to stare down a goyf.

Boarding out Thoughtseize is good, but I think you leave Bob in and board out Vindicate instead. Cat Sligh has few troublesome permanents that are worth the 3 mana investment. Bob on the other hand will quite likely soak a burn spell early and late, you've either stabalized or they were going to kill you anyway. But the real key is having extra spot removal in the board. You should have at least a pair of edicts board anyway to deal with NO Pro or Emrakul anyway. I run 3 Plow and 3 Edict main with the 4th Plow in board. Or run CoP: Red, which also handily deals with Progenitus.

The other thing that I find useful against burn heavy decks is Extirpate. Sometimes you get lucky and strip another burn out of their hand but mostly, lowering their threat density can be huge. I remember when Haunting Echoes was still playable how backbreaking it could be for my Sligh deck when it hit 2 or 3 burn spells. They play their hands out quickly so Hymn and Verdict become dead quickly (although you can Verdict yourself for life in a pinch).

My suggestion is -3 Vindicate, -4 seize, -2 Hymn and +2 Demise, +3 Extirpate and +4 Finks (prefer Hierarch).

Thanks for your suggestions, these should help with my zoo mu and i think you're right in keeping in the bobs. I've gone back and forth on whether playing EE or deed is better. Right now I'm playing with EE because people still play counterbalance in my meta (guess they never got the memo that deck isn't very good anymore) which tends to be a pain in the a$$ when they get a 2 and a 3 on top. EE gets through this problem and is usually a bit faster against zoo and other decks. Though I can see going with deed also.

Previously for Zoo I've done: -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Path/Edict

With my new SB, I think I'll try something like -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Paths. (Maybe +2 Deed as well?)

I'm not sure about boarding out Thoughtseize since it can snatch nasty things like PoP, Fireblast, and Goyf... but so far it's worked pretty well for me.

My strategy is basically to keep them off their white mana and to nuke everything they play.

Vs zoo this is what I am currently testing

Ghostly prison and an single e.tutor on the sideboard.

So for my sb this is what I am testing

2 ghostly
1 E.plague
1 Deed
1 E. tutor
3 edict
4 extirpate
1 faeri
1 the tabernacle ----currently being tested
1 free slot either choke ---or another tutorable card or anti control card.

My meta has a lot of survival hence the Extirpates and the single faeri. And we don't have much combo.

Edict for progen and emrakul,show and tell.or nat order decks.

Ghostly prisons which works with our land D. strategy, and tabernacle. Its good for dredge , zoo and any other tribal decks that attacks. Which could also work for show and tell, if we can destroy their lands.

The single E.plague is questionable but since it does wonders against goblins I will leave it till I find something better, maybe dueling grounds or another prison.

Deed : for a good sweeper can be tutored by E.tutor.

I still can't decide between EE and deed maindeck. I am leaning on ee however, since it works better against counter tops and doesn't necessarily break your mox. However, deed is the better sweeper .... Have to test some more...

Is there a reason for most decisions to use Path in s/b? I personally don't like the card b/c of the mana acceleration it gives my opponents. With StP m/d, wouldn't edict be the better choice? Please enlighten me and tell me what I'm missing.
I understand Legacy uses mostly nonbasic, but smart players should always have a few basics.

As to the Deed vs EE, I find that more players have a way of dealing w/ artifacts instead of enchantments. Both are great control cards, but after using both, I find the deed to be the better. But as someone stated, its entirely dependent on your meta.