Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
This is why I play Grapeshot over Pyroclasm.
If you're Wishing for Pyroclasm against goblins you've already lost. It's past turn 4. You won't ever be going turn 2 wish for clasm, go.
If you're Wishing for Pyroclasm against Merfolk you've already lost because you're wasting business spells to kill dudes that quite frankly don't matter. They could kill you with a Mutavualt. Because if their hand is counters, you've lost because you didn't wish for Thoughtseize.
If you're wishing for Pyroclasm against Gaddeck Teeg/Cannonist why not have something with an additional purpose? I can't count how many times Grapeshot has saved my ass. Being able to deal two damage to Teeg and then 5-7 to your opponent and mini-Tendrils is a great strategy.
If you're opponent has Ruined Halo in play you're forced to go for Tokens against a deck that more than likely has Moat/EE.
5,000.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Agreed with Cook. In my experience, Wishing for something to kill their dudes (other than a single hatebear) is a position were you don't want to be, and usually means that you're going to die no matter what. So...I wouldn't plan for that eventuality. And while I'm not an expert with this deck, I think that goblins don't stand a chance against us, so no need to plan for that either. Merfolk is a totally different matter though. But in either case is fundamentally flawed wishing for something to kill their guys, when you can simply kill the opponent.
That said, in my meta there are at least 2 good players that usually play Bant colors (either survival, aggro or counterbalance), so I keep a Pyroclasm in my board in case they try to double lock me with a combination of Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. I have yet to wish for it, so maybe I'll cut it next time...
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
grats on the 5,000.
As far as pyroclasm, isn't the plan with the deck to simply get the combo going, forcing the other decks to be reactionary and spend time/resources trying to stop you? At which point, your duresses, orim's chants, etc. are already working.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Ouch, sorry I didnt remember that then pyrclasm is better than masssacre:)
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
This is why I play Grapeshot over Pyroclasm.
If you're Wishing for Pyroclasm against goblins you've already lost. It's past turn 4. You won't ever be going turn 2 wish for clasm, go.
If you're Wishing for Pyroclasm against Merfolk you've already lost because you're wasting business spells to kill dudes that quite frankly don't matter. They could kill you with a Mutavualt. Because if their hand is counters, you've lost because you didn't wish for Thoughtseize.
If you're wishing for Pyroclasm against Gaddeck Teeg/Cannonist why not have something with an additional purpose? I can't count how many times Grapeshot has saved my ass. Being able to deal two damage to Teeg and then 5-7 to your opponent and mini-Tendrils is a great strategy.
If you're opponent has Ruined Halo in play you're forced to go for Tokens against a deck that more than likely has Moat/EE.
5,000.
I see the point against Teeg, but against Ethersworn it is not that clear cut...
Only to begin with you need one artifact in hand, or the grape will not even kill the Ethersworn, and I very much doubt you will be able to generate any storm only using artifacts to reach 5-7 damage to the opponent.
Yes, probably I am mixing your example with Teeg with my example with Ethersworn.
But I start to feel very inclined to play a pyroclasm in the side in addition to a grapeshot.
If you see my last tournament report grape gave me one of the games.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I've been trying to decide what constitutes a kill with Empty when goldfishing. Basically, it seems like Empty for ten beats an empty board, but if they have a creature and can play a second, you need to be going for twelve plus, and if it's turn three you probably need fourteen or more Goblins. Thoughts?
I haven't had a ton of problems with emidln's list having all sideboarded win conditions. I have noticed that Ad Nauseam can be a little more painful, but you have to flip the second Ad Nauseam and hit a bunch of twos when you're short on mana for it to be truly relevant. Drawing Ad Nauseam is pretty awesome, although I've had some times where I've had six mana with IT + LED and I want to Empty and can't.
Bryant: What are your thoughts on emidln's manabase?
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I dislike it a lot actually. The basics I think may hurt him more than help him. If he starts the game with Island, Ponder. Next turn fetches a sea, casts Duress. Get's wasted. He could be a in tough boat the rest of the game. Basics in Combo are highly overrated in my opinion. You shouldn't be planning for the long haul, you should be setting up for a quick win.
4 colors on duals and fetches too? All that does is slow down the deck in my opinion. You need too many colors in order to reliably go off, with duals and fetches you'll need more actual lands.
I think it's worse against Stifle/Waste decks because of what I said above. Not including the fact it doesn't have Empty against Daze/Spellpierce situations.
Xantid Vs Chant? I understand Merfolk is a big deck right now but Chant is all around better in my opinion. I guess if you're only planning on beating one type of blue deck, sure. Don't give me that UG Maddness crap either. They play 6 counterspells and 2 of them are Daze.\
There's more but I need to get to class.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I dislike it a lot actually. The basics I think may hurt him more than help him. If he starts the game with Island, Ponder. Next turn fetches a sea, casts Duress. Get's wasted. He could be a in tough boat the rest of the game. Basics in Combo are highly overrated in my opinion. You shouldn't be planning for the long haul, you should be setting up for a quick win.
Why wouldn't you get Island / Swamp in this scenario? That's exactly a situation where it can be better. When you face Wasteland and still have 2 lands available instead of having one of them Wasted. I wouldn't say it's correct in a 4 color configuration, but if you're trying to cut down to 3 colors, then it does work. There is only 3 more fetchlands than your manabase (1 more land in general), so it's slightly more susceptible to Stifle, but still better against Wasteland.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
The matches wasteland comes up in are actually the matches you want to take your time and get a chant. It's also much worse to have your first land wasted before casting a cantrip, that sets you back a turn, If your on the draw you're effectively entering the game on turn three.
The basic is good.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jander78
Why wouldn't you get Island / Swamp in this scenario? That's exactly a situation where it can be better. When you face Wasteland and still have 2 lands available instead of having one of them Wasted. I wouldn't say it's correct in a 4 color configuration, but if you're trying to cut down to 3 colors, then it does work. There is only 3 more fetchlands than your manabase (1 more land in general), so it's slightly more susceptible to Stifle, but still better against Wasteland.
Bad example. I was in a hurry trying to type. Make it a Bayou then. My point being that basics are too restrictive when trying to win fast.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Bad example. I was in a hurry trying to type. Make it a Bayou then. My point being that basics are too restrictive when trying to win fast.
Once again, why would he want to get a Bayou?
Basics are pretty good, just not in the 5 colour versions, I haven't tested the 4 colour versions.
Anyways, the mana base in the 5 colour version seems to suck. I always seem to find myself with Chants sitting in my hand and no way to cast them. If the other guy is running Wasteland, it is only worse.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
Once again, why would he want to get a Bayou?
Basics are pretty good, just not in the 5 colour versions, I haven't tested the 4 colour versions.
Anyways, the mana base in the 5 colour version seems to suck. I always seem to find myself with Chants sitting in my hand and no way to cast them. If the other guy is running Wasteland, it is only worse.
Because his other protection spell is Xantid Swarm? Meaning he could have it in hand.
How can you not cast Orim's Chant? There's plenty of five colored sources in the deck.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Well, I seem to hate drawing them. I will continue to test the deck, Grapeshot kills are way too fun to not play this deck.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Albert
I see the point against
Teeg, but against
Ethersworn it is not that clear cut...
Only to begin with you need one artifact in hand, or the grape will not even kill the Ethersworn, and I very much doubt you will be able to generate any storm only using artifacts to reach 5-7 damage to the opponent.
Yes, probably I am mixing your example with Teeg with my example with
Ethersworn.
But I start to feel very inclined to play a
pyroclasm in the side
in addition to a
grapeshot.
If you see my last tournament report grape gave me one of the games.
Against Ethersworn, getting Shattering Spree/Pulverize is usually better anyway. That said, I do like Pyroclasm in the sideboard against decks that go all in on a bunch of tokens like Dredge and Belcher and even the mirror (though it's rare for anyone to try to EtW in the mirror). Wishing for it to clear the board against those decks can be game winning sometimes. I dislike having both Grapeshot and Pyroclasm in the board as it seems like unnecessary redundancy that could be used for something else - board space is really tight in this deck. I prefer Pyroclasm because I feel the above comes up more often than the Grapeshot you for 4-6, Tendrils for 7 play. Massacre is also not an option because of its inability to deal with Gaddock Teeg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Because his other protection spell is Xantid Swarm? Meaning he could have it in hand.
How can you not cast Orim's Chant? There's plenty of five colored sources in the deck.
There's only 10 five colored sources... that's about a 13-14% you don't see one in the first 10 cards which is pretty significant, especially when you're dealing with the same odds with your 10 win conditions.
I've been playing a 3 color list lately with a fetchland manabase and haven't looked back. I know some people swear by Orim's Chant but I've always been disappointed by it - there's been too many times where I've either been unable to get the colors to cast it or it has sat it my hand while my opponent plays a Counterbalance. I feel like you don't gain enough over Thoughtseize to make the additional color(s) worth it. I do appreciate how Orim's Chant interacts with Pyroblast out of the sideboard though (probably one of its biggest selling points for me).
I'm curious how the people playing Xantid Swarm feel about their Counterbalance matchup. In my experience, Pyroblast has been pretty key to stopping one from resolving. Even on the draw, being able to Duress, take any counters after they hide the enchantment with Brainstorm, and then Chrome Mox something or even play a Petal to leave up Pyroblast has been an important sequence of plays for me in the matchup, despite the card disadvantage. Does Dark Confidant help that much?
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
Well, I seem to hate drawing them. I will continue to test the deck, Grapeshot kills are way too fun to not play this deck.
If you have trouble getting your white mana, you can always cut a rainbow land and put a Scrubland (or maaaybe a Tundra, depending on your fetches), to fetch when needed.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Or just drop fetchlands altogether and run something horrible such as Forbidden Orchard. Like me. :tongue:
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lorgalis
If you have trouble getting your white mana, you can always cut a rainbow land and put a Scrubland (or maaaybe a Tundra, depending on your fetches), to fetch when needed.
Definitely not.
The mana already is shaky, not worth destroying it completely for 1 card.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maxflow2
Does Dark Confidant help that much?
In my experience dark confidant hass not been that great. Even more this days that people keep removal for them or for xantids.
The idea of a set of pyroblasts sounds atractive both for CB and merfolks, the main problem I see with them is when you need the mana from a LED to cast the next spell after a BW or IT and you are holding the pyro in hand. You can risk to not break the LED waiting for their counter, not gonna happen with IT, but likely with BW. The problem is if they do not counter you are screwed...
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
Definitely not.
The mana already is shaky, not worth destroying it completely for 1 card.
Totally untrue, you can up the land count by 1 and put a Scrubland. Having a white souce fetchable has saved my ass so many times when I opened the classical TES shitty hands with double Chant and fetchland.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
Totally untrue, you can up the land count by 1 and put a Scrubland. Having a white souce fetchable has saved my ass so many times when I opened the classical TES shitty hands with double Chant and fetchland.
Yes, I cut a Chrome mox for an extra land. At first it was Undiscovered Paradise, but when testing showed that it was quite shitty, it was changed to Scrubland. And so far it has been working nicely.
