With 18 lands you really don't want to be spending mana on topping. Plus, Preordain is fuel for Snap + Lavamancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
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With 18 lands you really don't want to be spending mana on topping. Plus, Preordain is fuel for Snap + Lavamancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Im a huge fan of Vortex so maybe my choice is biased, but Vortex does recurring damage over time so if you are stuck under some sort of lock, chance are their deck doesnt deal as much damage as your and the vortex will race their slow deck. Of course I am also a fan of 3 PoP mainboard as well. If you are playing against a mono basics deck or something shuffle them away! If not, it is easily the best spell in your deck.
Saying that Vortex is mana-greedy when you say "Snappi + Smash is better" is not really consistent : If you can afford 4ccm in total, then you can also afford 3ccm (+1 free for a Bolt or a Pierce, for instance).
Am just not sure whether Vortex is still relevant atm. It was really (really) good vs UW Miracle and to some extent vs Esperblade but now, with Decay, these decks are less represented than they used to be.
Personally as much as I like dealing 3 damages while destroying a threat/problem, I still believe that Shattering Spree is somewhat better. It also gets rid of CotV, it is cheaper to flashback and can put some decks in a very bad situation (Tezzeret for instance).
m2c
Esper Blade, UW Miracles and BUG Control are still DTBs, so why shouldn't Vortex be viable?
Am not saying they are not DTB anymore. They are still and will most probably stay in their position for a while...:wink:
All am saying is that Abrupt Decay has changed things.
Why Sulfuric Vortex is/was so strong?
- Because in a stalled game where most or every blasts get countered (especially via Counterbalance), Vortex allowed you to still reduce bit by bit the opponent's life. And its ccm made it almost impossible to be countered via Counterbalance (Vendilion revealed, ok, but that's about it).
To go back to Decay, it doesn't care about counterbalance and will almost systematically destroy it (eventually it will also destroy Vortex btw). And that's why Miracle is not as frequent as it used to be.
- Also because it prevents your opponents from gaining life. What is the most common ways of gaining life (especially in Esper.deck)? Batterskull & Jitte. Vortex prevents the life gain, true, but it doesn't prevent you or your creatures from taking a beat-down & to some extent, we can also say it even helps your opponent (also because you won't get life either after a Swords to Plowshares on your flipped Delver). In this case, I believe it is more efficient to go straight to the pb & destroy it (hence Smash to S./Smelt/Shattering Spree/any other anti-artifacts).
I played Vortex in SB & in MD, sometimes in 1-of or 2, rarely more for obvious reasons of high ccm but as much as I like the card, it still isn't superior to an anti-artifact card.
The ccm as it was mentioned earlier is also an "issue": Is it more valuable to play Vortex T3, as soon as you have your 3 mana open? T4? T5? or, with the same amount of mana, is it more efficient to blast your opponent without having you being dealt 2 damages each turn and eventually being forced to chumpblock a Bloodbraided Elf or a Tarmogoyf?
Don't get me wrong there, this is a serious question. Atm I personally don't think it is worth it. However I am open to your feedback and to take your points too. Afer all, the main goal is to create a 'better list':smile:
Vortex is in fact superior to artifact hate, if you look for an out to Batterskull and Jitte or a general great card against control. Vortex is a must-answer card for control decks. If they don't answer it, they lose and if you play Vortex and weren't able to win the damage race, you should immediately sell your cards and never touch this deck again. Playing 1-2 in the SB doesn't cut it, because in the matchups you bring it in, you actually want to see the card. CMC3 isn't that big of a deal. If it would be, you would have to cut Snapcaster Mages too.
As for when to play Vortex: You play it when you think it's safe or you need it on the board.
Instant? :D
Haha ya it was late when i wrote that i bet its crawling with mistakes (that weren't my side-boarding choices)
Would you guys put in a 3rd sulfuric vortex or a 3rd price of progress in the sideboard? Jund and Junk can still fetch basics and PoP will hit for a low amount. Miracles is slowly getting out of the picture in my meta and being filled with Deathrite.dec
I'd say Smash to Smithereens is better than Vortex, since it's harder to handle and also serves the purpose to deny lifegain from Jitte/Batterscull.
Different question: Which MUs do we need FoW for. Unfair combo, okay I see that but other than that? It's always a 2:1 and with the printing of Abrupt Decay it cannot protect a flipped Delver. I thought about moving the 3 Lava Spike from the SB to MD and just board them when you need it. I hardly know a card in Jund or Rock that I would FoW, except for SFM maybe. Although Spike can only target a player, it costs only R and makes 3 damage. PoP forces people to fetch for basics when they can. Other than that I love Bob on my opponents side, since it comes together with our gameplan ;)
How are our matchups with BUG or Jund?
I don't feel confident about the matchups unless we run purely burn and close to no counter spells.
I played a couple of games vs. Junk the other night, ending 8-1-1 in my favor. Only lost a single game vs. an online Jitte. The game I drew was because PoP finished both of us. As I said FoW is really not required. That's why I moved them to the SB and played 3 Lava Spike instead.
Haven't had the time to play Jund so far, but as I said Bob plays in our favor. I've seen people sac. their own Bob with Lili...
Would you guys recommend playing U/R Delver in a metagame full of combo decks?
I would unless SNT is the combo deck of choice.
Vortex is superior to artifact hate. What deck runs a SFM package and Abrupt Decay? You arent boarding vortex vs abrupt decay decks other than BUG control. .. Stoneblade still has a tough time beating it.
Does it mean that U/R delver is pretty bad against SNT? =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
How does U/R delver beat SNT -> Griselbrand? The deck doesn't exactly run a strong counter suite. So in short, yes, SNT is probably not a great matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonthan
Other than 3 forces, you run a bunch of taxing counters. They run sol lands to beat taxing counters. And you arent a burn deck fuly so your clock isnt the greatest. And like he said. You dont beat griselbran. I think your tendrils MU is a bit better though. Not the greatest but probably better than SnTQuote:
Originally Posted by Yonthan
Well, Junk (the rock) does. But they've been playing Vindicate/M.Pulse before as a MD answer for Vortex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Actually Vortex is a really nice answer to Grieselbrand. Since SnT isn't the fastest at all, I wanna see a player revealing Grieselbrand to S. Vortex upon a Show and Tell and activating the card-draw ability vs. a deck like this. I don't care about a 7/7 flyer. If he's doing a third of the work I'm supposed to do by himself, there is a way to win this. Also Emrakul is not the worst. usually they need to activate an A. Tomb and you have dealt some damage before just keep a mountain in your hand and you can still cast Bolts/C.Lightning and so on.
SNT seems like the worse combo match up for UR delver. Because we dont have discard they can stay back for a while to get the stuff they need. Im moving up to 2 REB's in the side just for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Thing is that if your meta is full of SnT.deck, the best thing to do is to have more SB against it because as it was already mentioned, you cannot really beat Griselbrand main deck.
Cards like Envelop, Venser or Gilded Drake are potentially better than Vortex imho.
Envelop can replace Pierce or Daze or complete your counter arsenal and it is a 'hard counter'. Default is that apart from Sorceries, it won't counter anything else (but it is mainly aimed at Show and Tell).
Venser, like G.Drake, are cards to put in play via your opponent's SnT. Gilded drake allows you to steal his creature but does a nice 'nothing' vs Omniscience. Venser bounces back what was revealed by your opponent (including Omniscience). Apart from the flexibility you get from both cards, the major difference is the mana cost in case you plan on hardcasting them. Drake will always be easier to cast.
Venser seems better than drake due to bouncing omnoscience