[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

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Originally Posted by Arksz

Thopter list sounds fun, would you mind posting a deck list?

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Creature:
2 true name
4 shardless agents
4 strix
4 deathrite

Spells:
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of meek
3 thoughtseize
2 liliana of the veil
2 jace the mind sculptor
2 dig through time
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
2 ancestral vision

Lands:
1 creeping tar pit
4 under seas
3 tropical
2 bayou
2 verdant
2 misty rain forest
4 polluted delta
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp

Sideboard:
3 chills
2 brain freeze
3 flusterstorm
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
2 golgari charm.
1 jitte

this is the list i swept a tourny with
r1 2-1 sneak and show
r2 2-0 mavrick
r3 2-1 mavrick
r4 2-0 poison stompy
r5 id
r6 id

top 8
R7 2-1 mavrick
then slip top 4 took first at final resaults

guys, I think we are back in the T1/Decks to beat business!
:cool:

Just as I predicted, Treasure Cruise is banned (also, Worldgorger Dragon is unbanned).

Some speculation:
-There will probably be way less maindeck Pyroblasts.
-Ancestral Vision returns to being the most efficient method of drawing 3 cards.
-Discard in general is powerful again -- Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil are now much more playable since the opponent can't just chain Draw 3's back-to-back to recover from discard.
-Some decks will try to just jam 4 Dig Through Time as replacement, but DTT is better in certain types of decks and not quite as broken in aggressive decks. DTT is +1 cards for UU instead of +2 for U -- a fairly significant difference. (Of course, BUG can still play 1-2 DTT itself.)
-The number of UR aggressive decks will likely subside significantly, which was often a poor matchup for BUG -- particularly lists running Price of Progress and Blood Moon.
-The 'velocity' of the format in general may slow down.
-Miracles may come back in force, one of Shardless BUG's best matchups.
-Some brewers might try to 'break' Wordlgorger, making turn 1 Deathrite Shaman an amazing play (it always is). Abrupt Decay also answers Animate Dead.
-Rest in Peace might become more common, an obvious negative for BUG.
-Even so, Tarmogoyf will likely become more common -- making Abrupt Decay better.
-Nimble Mongoose will also see play again -- making DRS and Liliana of the Veil + other edict effects better.
-Even though UR(x) strategies are weakened by the loss of Treasure Cruise, Young Pyromancer + Monastery Mentor are still potent threats that will see play. Sweeper effects such as Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm are effective answers.

Overall, I'd say it's a net gain for BUG -- Shardless and Delver tempo styles both benefit from Treasure Cruise getting axed.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Just as I predicted, Treasure Cruise is banned (also, Worldgorger Dragon is unbanned).

Some speculation:
-There will probably be way less maindeck Pyroblasts.
-Ancestral Vision returns to being the most efficient method of drawing 3 cards.
-Discard in general is powerful again -- Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil are now much more playable since the opponent can't just chain Draw 3's back-to-back to recover from discard.
-Some decks will try to just jam 4 Dig Through Time as replacement, but DTT is better in certain types of decks and not quite as broken in aggressive decks. DTT is +1 cards for UU instead of +2 for U -- a fairly significant difference. (Of course, BUG can still play 1-2 DTT itself.)
-The number of UR aggressive decks will likely subside significantly, which was often a poor matchup for BUG -- particularly lists running Price of Progress and Blood Moon.
-The 'velocity' of the format in general may slow down.
-Miracles may come back in force, one of Shardless BUG's best matchups.
-Some brewers might try to 'break' Wordlgorger, making turn 1 Deathrite Shaman an amazing play (it always is). Abrupt Decay also answers Animate Dead.
-Rest in Peace might become more common, an obvious negative for BUG.
-Even so, Tarmogoyf will likely become more common -- making Abrupt Decay better.
-Nimble Mongoose will also see play again -- making DRS and Liliana of the Veil + other edict effects better.
-Even though UR(x) strategies are weakened by the loss of Treasure Cruise, Young Pyromancer + Monastery Mentor are still potent threats that will see play. Sweeper effects such as Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm are effective answers.

Overall, I'd say it's a net gain for BUG -- Shardless and Delver tempo styles both benefit from Treasure Cruise getting axed.

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For sure, it feels great to be back. Although I never found RiP to be any real concern, just another target for AD that complements the main strategy of playing 1for1/2for1 and then reload with AV. I know of a lot of Miracles players for example that don't even bring them in against us.

So great to be able to break out my Shardless deck again! Before the TC era I was playing a fairly stock list, but with this sideboard:

2x Chill
2x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Thoughtseize (2 main)

I remember not being 100% thrilled with Chill sideboard, if you could land one early though Burn became an almost trivial matchup. With a potential influx of modern players looking to buy into a "more eternal" format after the Pod banning, I'm wondering if I should keep them in for a few weeks if people keep trying to jam the UR Delver shell or Burn. Maybe keep it a little more flexible with another Charm + Strix? Any thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheHeff

I remember not being 100% thrilled with Chill sideboard, if you could land one early though Burn became an almost trivial matchup. With a potential influx of modern players looking to buy into a "more eternal" format after the Pod banning, I'm wondering if I should keep them in for a few weeks if people keep trying to jam the UR Delver shell or Burn. Maybe keep it a little more flexible with another Charm + Strix? Any thoughts?

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I've been testing Nourish in the Chill slots and it's been good. It's like another Hymn that always hits two Bolts. The big gain is that it's good no matter when you draw it.

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Originally Posted by tons of fun

Creature:
2 true name
4 shardless agents
4 strix
4 deathrite

Spells:
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of meek
3 thoughtseize
2 liliana of the veil
2 jace the mind sculptor
2 dig through time
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
2 ancestral vision

Lands:
1 creeping tar pit
4 under seas
3 tropical
2 bayou
2 verdant
2 misty rain forest
4 polluted delta
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp

Sideboard:
3 chills
2 brain freeze
3 flusterstorm
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
2 golgari charm.
1 jitte

this is the list i swept a tourny with
r1 2-1 sneak and show
r2 2-0 mavrick
r3 2-1 mavrick
r4 2-0 poison stompy
r5 id
r6 id

top 8
R7 2-1 mavrick
then slip top 4 took first at final resaults

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This looks like TONS OF FUN. Actually. Awesome stuff!


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Edit - What's going on with the Brainfreeze in the SB?

This is Gary Wong's list from September 2014 which I feel is quite the STOCK list. I was thinking about just starting from here. I'm gonna be taking it with me to a local tournament this weekend because I think it could do very well. I probably won't play the swamp because I'm not really afraid of wasteland or blood moon going into this event. Other than that the only thing I can't decide is whether or not to make room for Dig Through Time, how many, and what to cut for it. Any other changes I need to consider going into this event with the recent bannings?

22 LANDS

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

14 CREATURES

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

20 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 OTHER SPELLS

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD

1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Hydroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

This looks like TONS OF FUN. Actually. Awesome stuff!


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Edit - What's going on with the Brainfreeze in the SB?

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well its for miricales and set up style decks fucks there top order all up

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Originally Posted by tons of fun

well its for miricales and set up style decks fucks there top order all up

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Isn't Dimir Charm strictly better at doing that?

I still wouldnt play chill in the board to beat burn. i still think that they can beat through a chill. The deck is pretty slow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drocker23

This is Gary Wong's list from September 2014 which I feel is quite the STOCK list. I was thinking about just starting from here. I'm gonna be taking it with me to a local tournament this weekend because I think it could do very well. I probably won't play the swamp because I'm not really afraid of wasteland or blood moon going into this event. Other than that the only thing I can't decide is whether or not to make room for Dig Through Time, how many, and what to cut for it. Any other changes I need to consider going into this event with the recent bannings?

22 LANDS

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

14 CREATURES

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

20 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 OTHER SPELLS

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD

1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Hydroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique

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I would add the dig you mentioned and either 1 more Liliana or 1 Toxic Deluge. Additionally I would run the meddling package SB.
Also the Strixes might get cut, but thats meta dependent.
I probably cut some discard. As I and some other guys were running shardless without discard before TC happenned.
Im going to play a small FNM in a few hours, going to post list and results tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nossirag

I would add the dig you mentioned and either 1 more Liliana or 1 Toxic Deluge. Additionally I would run the meddling package SB.
Also the Strixes might get cut, but thats meta dependent.
I probably cut some discard. As I and some other guys were running shardless without discard before TC happenned.
Im going to play a small FNM in a few hours, going to post list and results tomorrow.

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Thanks, I would really appreciate that.

I was looking at this list from Grand Prix Trail New Jersey by Nick Diprinzio, and I kind of like. The Dig Through Time main is pretty spicy. Although it's been a long time since I've played with Shardless BUG and having no board wipe and no answer to batterskull main is a little unsettling. The sideboard looks pretty decent in regards to the meta I'm expecting: Delver variants, Sneak and Show, Death and Taxes, Burn, Elves, some TNN type decks, and UB Tezzeret. So far the only change I've made to the list, is that I have cut the 4th Thoughtseize in the board for a Massacre. I don't know, what do you guys think about this list?

22 LANDS

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp

14 CREATURES

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix

20 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dig Through Time

4 OTHER SPELLS

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD

1 Force of Will
1 Baleful Strix
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James_Nguyen

I still wouldnt play chill in the board to beat burn. i still think that they can beat through a chill. The deck is pretty slow

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Gerry Thompson mentioned you and your decklist in an article recently. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Of-An-Era.html

He said that if he were to play this deck again post bannings, he would start with your list and use it as a template. So my question is what would your list look like post bannings?

Here is the list for reference

Shardless Sultai

James Nguyen

6th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 12/7/2014

Legacy

Creatures (14)

1 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (3)

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Spells (21)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
2 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Thief
1 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Massacre
1 Thoughtseize

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drocker23

I was looking at this list from Grand Prix Trail New Jersey by Nick Diprinzio, and I kind of like. The Dig Through Time main is pretty spicy. Although it's been a long time since I've played with Shardless BUG and having no board wipe and no answer to batterskull main is a little unsettling. The sideboard looks pretty decent in regards to the meta I'm expecting: Delver variants, Sneak and Show, Death and Taxes, Burn, Elves, some TNN type decks, and UB Tezzeret. So far the only change I've made to the list, is that I have cut the 4th Thoughtseize in the board for a Massacre. I don't know, what do you guys think about this list?

22 LANDS

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp

14 CREATURES

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix

20 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dig Through Time

4 OTHER SPELLS

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD

1 Force of Will
1 Baleful Strix
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm

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Your list looks very similar to mine (you can find the full list in my sig) but with a few minor changes. I remember the talk about this argument from awhile back, but it comes down to how weak you want your MD to be against combo G1. I prefer the 4 FoW/2 Thoughtseize/3 Lili/1 Maelstrom Pulse disruption package main, then I stick 2 Thoughtseize/2 Hymn SB for more discard. Even against fair decks G1 (where you would most likely side out your FoW), there are always force targets and when you need Force, you REALLY want to have 4. I've found Hymn to be more of a liability main, but that's not to say it's not a ridiculous card but 99/100 times it's dead lategame. SB looks almost identical to mine, but am considering switching the Chill's out for something like Flusterstorm. Bad cascade, but a very good card for counterwars, stifle decks (which will see an uptick) and stops Storm cold. I would also consider adding at least one Pithing Needle (maybe for that 3rd Strix or Hymn) since it's so versatile. Just my 2c!

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Originally Posted by btm10

isn't dimir charm strictly better at doing that?

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dimir charm doenst get around balance on 2 were the strom copies do do that

Here is another list I would like to explore. I think you could ease up on the GY hate now that Treasure Cruise is gone. And I'm not sure if Pernicious Deed is needed, but overall the deck has a lot of elements of the classic versions of this deck as well as Dig Through Time to find specific sideboard cards and to keep the card advantage train rolling. Sideboard elements similar to Lejay's creation, although now with Containment Priest. Could be interesting to test out. Any thoughts?

Shardless Sultai

Rudy Briksza

13th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 1/10/2015
Legacy

Creatures (12)

4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (3)

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Spells (23)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scrubland

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Originally Posted by tons of fun

dimir charm doenst get around balance on 2 were the strom copies do do that

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Charm is also maindeckable and has other modes that do relevant things. Brain Freeze is good in no other matchups (aside from High Tide, I guess) and is pretty marginal against Miracles. And Counterbalance? Seriously? That's what you're worried about?

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Originally Posted by James_Nguyen

I still wouldnt play chill in the board to beat burn. i still think that they can beat through a chill. The deck is pretty slow

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This is basically my argument for Nourish from above; I think the real question at this point is "is it even worth boarding for Burn?" rather than "what's the best sideboard card for Burn?".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by btm10

Charm is also maindeckable and has other modes that do relevant things. Brain Freeze is good in no other matchups (aside from High Tide, I guess) and is pretty marginal against Miracles. And Counterbalance? Seriously? That's what you're worried about?



This is basically my argument for Nourish from above; I think the real question at this point is "is it even worth boarding for Burn?" rather than "what's the best sideboard card for Burn?".

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charms other modes are just not as good as they should be and 2 it keeps the top draws off line so they cant end of the turn top draw entreat for the win see the point of a sideboard is to have cards that help specific match ups and guess what it helps against not only mircles it does wonders against show and tell decks especialy the brainstorm that responds to the thoughts seize i mean it works for what i want it for it does wonders its a bigger impact then u think cuz u mill and hit one maybe 2 entreats is huge against them cuz u can beat them in the grind match with miracles easily its the entreat u dont want to happen at the end of ur turn