Got 3rd in a 12-man tourney last night.
Lost to Merfolk (TNN + Phantasmal Image in games 2 & 3), but then beat BUG Delver, Patriot Delver, and Mono Green 12-Post.
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Got 3rd in a 12-man tourney last night.
Lost to Merfolk (TNN + Phantasmal Image in games 2 & 3), but then beat BUG Delver, Patriot Delver, and Mono Green 12-Post.
@Neffy
I am really digging the Swan Song tech. How do you find the matchup against Batterskull decks without Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip/Maelstrom Pulse in the Board? Would it stretch the mana base too thin to put the Underground Sea main in place of a Swamp to free up a sideboard slot?
I would never consider taking out a basic Swamp, because you're gonna miss this card in wasteland heavy matchups, however Jund plays several badlands/bayous. I'd try cutting one off the one you have the most of if you're willing to place Underground Sea. Also, I can see it as a misleading tech to try to fool an opponent early game. Maybe even a singleton UB fetchland for further misleading.
I haven't looked at this thread in a week or so, but I will try and address some various concerns from the last page or so.
On Sylvan Library, run two. Three is a little excessive due to the tightness of the decklist, but you want to draw it against the matchups where you really want it (it can single-handedly win the Miracles matchup as well as any midrange matchup).
For the Burn matchup, mulligan aggressively into discard, Deathrite Shaman, and especially Tarmogoyf. I beat burn at SCG: Dallas after being melted game one (kept a slow hand) using this strategy. It's surprisingly difficult for Burn to race a turn one Inquisition, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf opening. Fetch basics and be ready to Waste your own nonbasics to not die to Price of Progress.
Against MUD, winning the roll helps a lot. I like to board out a bunch of one-drops on the draw to avoid getting blown out by a Chalice on turn one (Thoughtseize/Inquisition are ok on the play, on the draw I recommend boarding them out). This deck can beat a Wurmcoil Engine because you have so much more card advantage and consistency than they do - it's when Wurmcoil is followed by multiple other big things that you lose (last time I played this matchup I fought through a Wurmcoil Engine AND a Sundering Titan but ended up being ground to death by Smokestack due to a misplay. Still took the match). Never let them untap with Metalworker or you will die. Pernicious Deed out of the board (I run 2) helps enormously in this matchup. Obviously you want to board in any Grudges, Revelries, or Grips you might be running. Hymn to Tourach is devastating.
Swan Song seems bad. This deck does not need another color and it certainly doesn't need cards you never want to cascade into. On a related note, don't ever cut the basics, especially the Swamp. I run 4 basics and have never looked back as they are so strong in so many matchups.
What have you cut to make room for the 2x Sylvan Library and what is your land base like so that you can play 4 basics? The idea is pretty appealing, I imagine you are on 2x Swamp, 1x Forest, 1x Mountain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Thanks for the tips on MUD. I don't have Deed in my board, though I like it, I just haven't found the room. Maybe it is better than Toxic Deluge. About Burn, I boarded out Thoughtseize against them which might have been a mistake as 2 is still less than 3. Is Reverly a good card to actually have in the board? I like all the things it does, but is it truly better than Ancient Grudge? To be fair, a lot of equipment decks do have DRS to stop the flashback as is. I also don't have a K Grip in my board, a nod to the mana efficiency of Ancient Grudge.
Personally, I'm pretty sold on the Diabolic Edict plan in the mainboard vs a Maelstrom Pulse. They answer different questions, and if I thought I could squeeze another 1 of into the main, I would consider it. I have an Inquisition of Kozilek that I have been plenty satisfied with, but might be better as a Maelstrom Pulse. The Edict is bad against Griselbrand, I will grant that, but so is Pulse. Pulse however, is cold to Emrakul whereas Edict is not. The other thing is that it's another answer to TNN, which I value highly because I don't want to lose to another non-interactive creature.
I will say that the Swan Song out of the board seems pretty spicy, but also pretty terrible. I am not a fan of it as it means boarding out BBE at the minimum. The other thing is that I can't imagine not just going whole hog with it and going deep with something like 1x Underground Sea, 4x Force of Will, 4x Swan Song, 4x Spell Pierce and then filler. If you're going to try to be better at countermagic than your combo opponents, go deep or go home IMO.
For Life From the Loam - does the package really increase the deck's Win% vs the decks that we have problems with? I think our average card quality is just so good that Loaming to get Wastelands is both slow and not as effective as drawing removal spells for on board threats. I also would imagine that it matches up pretty poorly vs DRS. I think that there is a Loam Depths Jund deck running around, so maybe that's what has been discussed, but in Punishing Jund it just seems slow and redundant - you would use a Wasteland lock against a fair deck that you already beat up via Fires, DRS, Goyf, BBE and nearly every other card in the maindeck.
re: Rakdos Charm - I have cut this card from my board as I felt that it was an inferior anything else all the time. Removing a graveyard should probably be a Nihil Spellbomb or a Tormod's Crypt - cantrips or being free is better. If you don't like either of those options, there is Leyline of the Void which does it better on T0, etc. I am currently testing Surgical Extraction and will figure out how much I like it when I can get in some solid games with it. If you're using it for the X damage = creatures vs storm, then I think you will be disappointed. They probably won't make a lethal amount of goblins to them because they will have less than 20 goblins (otherwise they would have just gone for Tendrils and got you), and then you will just wish that you had Maelstrom Pulse. And killing an artifact is done better by Ancient Grudge with flashback, K Grip with split second, Deed with a board wipe, Maelstrom Pulse with additional utility, or Revelery with damage (not something I had really thought about, admittedly). I think that the idea of a split card "remove target yard/blow up an artifact" is nice, but I think that I've found that the more specific answers have been better thusfar.
This is my main right now. If I was to add more basics I would cut a Badlands and a Fetch. But it would be for another Swamp and Forest, not a Mountain.
Spells:
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Enchantments:
2 Sylvan Library
Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Walkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil
Land:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
Side:
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb
The reason for the Extirpate is the lands decks that are played locally. Surgical does not hit loam when you know they have a Cycling land in hand. I have sat there with the card and just never had a moment I could use it. Switched to the "Fuck you Loam" card and never looked back.
You probably forgot to count the wastelands in :P
Also, I dunno how's your sideboard, but I think 4 thoughtseizes is really a must because of combo shenanigans. I like the rest of it though!
I did too. Oops.
My side is a simple affair. I will edit the post.
My current list:Quote:
Originally Posted by WeatherseedMage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
I run a ton of lands because I've noticed that most of my losses with this deck came from mana-screw, difficult combo matchups excepted. Hymn to Tourach is in the board because I really only want it against combo and perhaps Miracles. Inquisition is much better against the Delver decks that dominate my meta. The Revelry has been pretty solid although I have difficulty justifying it over another Krosan Grip or perhaps a Pithing Needle. I used to run more copies of Grudge but the card is narrow and you don't want to draw multiples usually. I highly recommend Pernicious Deed in the board for three reasons: it's a versatile sweeper against swarms (just don't bring it in against RUG, Stifle is a blowout), it kills TNN, and it sweeps away all the lock pieces ever from the many fringe prison decks you might run into (MUD, Enchantress, Chalice Aggro, Imperial Painter, even some Miracles variants will have lots of targets for this). In that way Deed serves as my insurance against randomness, being a one-sided blowout against many of these T2-3 decks while having utility against most of the decks to beat as well.
I really like your approach to Hymn to Tourach, I just might try that out, since I board it out msot of the time vs fair decks.
Also, agreed on Pernicious Deed, it's just such a table turner, though I have to say it actually saved my life in a RUG match, though I had the knowledge they didn't have stifle in hand so..
Fetching nonbasics to cast early Hymns lost me too many games against Delver and Death 'N Taxes. I feel like the card just isn't necessary in these matchups, and Inquisition is less likely to get Dazed etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
So in 2 weeks from now I'll be attending a rather large tournament. I'm very rarley playing in tournaments due to lack of tournaments in the first place, and also I'm living in a town where legacy isn't very popular. I'll be driving for 3 hours to another town where the tournament will be held.
Anyways. I'll be playing Jund with a white splash for Lingering Souls and some better SB options against Combo decks (thalia, ethersworn canonist mainly)
List looks like this atm
CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
ENCHANTMENTS (2)
2 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (10)
4 Lingering Souls
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
INSTANTS (8)
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
LANDS (24)
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Plague
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I've play tested quite a bit, mostly against deathblade/reanimate/miracles and I've learned the following: Lingering Souls is quite the card. It buys you time, it kills planeswalkers, it kills your opponent, it defends liliana and it's extremley awkard for the opponent to counter/discard/kill (Like using a plow on it when we have so much better targets in our deck) it (free win against pox). So playing souls instead of BBE. BBE is a good card, but has some issues. 1) it has cmc4 2) cascading into discard is often very poor 3) dies easily to almost anything 4) TNN
3 Surgical 2 Cage in the SB is enough to beat GY based decks. Very happy with it
2 Needles. Love this card, good against miracles and a lot of combo decks.
Not sure about the Thalia/Canonist split
Playing 24 lands, 0 basics. This could cause problems ofc, but feels like 24 lands is a lot for a deck that curves out at 3. Think I'll be fine
Its kind of the approach of modern jund pre-deathite ban. BBE iS the bomb vs planeswalkers though. LSouls will never put a 3/2 haste AND a liliana for 4 mana. Maybe you can shave some other spells.. Like no bolts for it, but i like it. Greedy manabase though with no basics
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How does Extirpate solve this scenario? Maybe I missed a rules change or had it explained to me incorrectly, but Cycling doesn't use the stack, and I was under the impression that even against Split Second they can still cycle and replace the draw with Dredge. Do you have a ruling for that? I'd like it confirmed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
-ABC
702.26a. Cycling is an activated ability that functions only while the card with cycling is in a player's hand. "Cycling [cost]" means "[Cost], Discard this card: Draw a card."
702.58a. Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast other spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."
I guess this will help :)
Bingo. Thanks for that.
I find that if you play right, Extirpate is the better card. There are no small amount of situations where the card costing actual mana is a pain, but getting the last word in can really help. The one target you should not go for is Punishing Fire though unless it is in responce to its trigger. That's a fun trick I have caught out others on.
What do people think of the mirror match? I played it last night, felt like a waiting game until one of us got the edge or made a mistake. I mean, I have read the primer, but I would ask others options. It turns out there are 5 Jund decks in a pool of 30 players. So the 2/1 or 3/0 slot normally ends up a mirror match.
Yeah, P.Fire functions differently since dude can tap Grove for Red mana and then P.Fire's thing is a triggered, not activated ability, correct?
Extirpate is a great card, probably the best thing vs reanimator/manaless dredge, but I think that costing a Phyrexian mana adds so much versatility on Surgical Extraction, such as the ability to, let's say, Thoughtseize Sneak Attack in the first turn and S.Extract it immediately. And you can still play it in response of a cycle land.
It is a trigger yes and you can tap Grove in response to Split second triggering Fire, then pay the red and gain the fire. The funny bit being that since Split Second is in effect, they can not respond to the trigger with anything. The Trigger is free to resolve and you get fire back, Extirpate has no legal target and is counted and everyone moves on there merry way.
The issue I have found against Loam decks is that, once they have two cycle lands, they will pull them both back at the same time with Loam. This means that they never give you a chance to hit it "In Response" since they have a response of their own. It gets so bothersome that I just decided to go the simple route and remove that chance from them. Yes, I lose a good part of what makes Extraction good, and if I was to go to an event I would switch them over, but locally I feel that what I have got now is the best option.
Hey everyone!
First, I apologize if this question has been asked and answered before (I used the search function with no real results.) Second, I am new-ish to Legacy: I have access to a few decks, but not a lot of time to play them. The lady-friend likes spending time together on weekends and it seems that is the only time Legacy fires in my area. I put together Jund because I had the Modern version, I had the Groves from building Tron, and I had the duals laying around from years ago. I sleeved it up to take to a friend house where people were just play-testing. It turns out I really liked the deck and I would consider playing it regularly (once I have the time, of course.)
Anyways, my question is this: Against an unknown opponent, do you ALWAYS go T1 discard over T1 DRS? I know there are many factors that can go into this (on the play or on the draw, the make-up of the rest of your hand, etc.) However, I am looking for a general rule here. T2 Liliana's are tempting, but if you go up against combo, T1 discard seems the safest bet.
Thanks in advance!
Unless you know you are facing a combo opponent on G1 (like seeing him playing on a previous round), I'd always go turn one Deathrite, because well, you might even do Thoughtseize + Hymn to Tourach turn 2. They HATE hymn to tourach, and you can "pitch for fow" with Thoughseize ha.
And then if it isn't a combo you probably got the edge against Wasteland.