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one of the top 8 lists in GP Columbus ran Plague sliver
tried it on MWS; it's a bit on the expensive side, I have to ritual it out to get the most out of it, but it beats tarmogoyf most of the time and beats CounterSliver :P. it's also resilient to engineered explosives and somewhat to pernicious deed
splashing for goyf could be better, but it opens up vulnerabilities as you guys are saying. being immune to wasteland and stifle is a big plus
In my Opinion Plague Sliver is to expensive ans more lifeloss besides fetch, confi and carnophage don't know if that is good. But I'll try it some day, before I make further comments :)
Also, inclusion of Goyf' would effect your SB. Leyline of the Void and Dystopia aren't the 4-of auto-includes they once were with you running Goyf' and other green cards potentially (Mongrel, etc). What becomes of your SB then?
Yes I know you can't really run Dystopia, but you know what you get: Tarmogoyf. One of the most ridiculous beaters in the game. It also helped by the fact that your playing discard which allows you to fuel Tarmogoyf like crazy. Sure there are issues with splashing green, but I don't think they outweigh playing Tarmogoyf.
Not only Dystopia, but Leyline of the Void as well becomes less effective as GY hate, as you would now depend on the yard to power Goyf'. I hate that one card is forcing this deck to make drastic maindeck/sideboard changes to accomodate it. So dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnwarA101
Fixed. Tarmogoyf is exactly what you want: an undercosted monster that puts your opponent on a quick clock. Green also gives you more sideboard options as well. Or you could just run dystopia anyway. Even with tarmogoyf that card hurts the decks you bring it in against alot more than it hurts you. And running leyline of the void with tarmogoyf is not an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnwarA101
How do you figure? Goyf' feeds off the yards of both players, Leyline of the Void takes away 50% of Goyf's resources, and he's now solely dependant on your yard accumulating cards quickly. If your opponent sided in some GY hate (which mono-black would've laughed at), your Goyf' isn't very scary anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
Please explain how Leyline off the Void + Goyf' = synergy.
You bring Leyline against decks where its devastating (Ichorid, Breakfast, etc.). In those matchups if your opponent brings in graveyard hate against you it seems very ineffective as your other creatures like Hyppie and Shade don't rely on the graveyard. Why would they bring in yard hate against you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
To keep the one creature, that you've now altered your maindeck and sideboard for, harmless. Also, most SBs do not have Sui Black hate cards, but many do have Leyline of the Void. I could definitely see your opponent, not really knowing what else you play in your Sui Black (if you've splashed for green and included Goyf', Grip, Mongrel), I'm sure he's wondering what other fundamental changes you've made.
And even if your opponent doesn't bring in GY in on you in game 2, I still don't see how your Leyline of the Void + Goyf' = synergy. If anything, both cards lose their effectiveness when both are in play. Please explain this to me. Am I not reading the wording correctly?
I don't think anyone said that Void + Goyf = Synergy. It doesn't have any good synergy. Leyline is yard hate against decks that need their yard to win. You can play Jailer, Crypt, or something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I think if you are going to run a fatty in Sui Black (And I'm not counting Negator with this, because that's a whole 'nother discussion), that Plague Sliver's probably the top choice. As no more than a 2-of, as having multiples in play causes severe life loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtriga
However, Plague Sliver's kind of iffy. He's big, but he's really hard to cast in a deck that can't afford to miss a turn because it can't get a threat out. Sure, you can Ritual him out turn 2, but wouldn't that ritual be better spent on turn one going Ritual/Specter, Ritual/Thoughtseize/Confidant, Ritual/Carnophage/Hymn, Ritual/Duress/Hymn, or one of a ton of other combinations?
As for Counterslivers, it's a tough fight without Plague Sliver giving you an auto-win. Thoughtseize is a ninja commando from hell in this matchup, but game one is still very tough to pull off. Postboard, Dystopia helps, or if you don't have it, Engineered Plague, Jitte, and Scroll can all combine to try and keep the slivers at bay (Thoughtseizing Crystalline Sliver helps.) However, I haven't seen Slivers played nearly enough yet to warrant Plague Sliver's inclusion.
Anwar, although nitewolf did not say the specific word "synergy", this sentence led me to believe that there isn't any problems or issues with running Leyline + Goyf'. If there isn't anything negative to playing both, then one would assume that there must be positives. Sorry if I inferred something that wasn't there, but this was what I was originally responding to.Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
I always hesitate to disagree with respected players about a deck I don't play that much, but I think you guys are nuts. I don't see how mildly affecting your manabase isn't worth running the best beater in the format.
- Are Stifle and Waste realy that much of a concern? The deck curves out often @2. I can see an argument for Stifle being a bitch (does this deck have problems with many blue decks?) but Wasteland hardly seems an actual concern. Waste won't stop you from casting goyf, and costs them a land. As a deck that runs waste itself trading land for land isn't that awful. Also, I think I would run fetches in the deck no matter what. I would much rather die to my own damage than my shitty topdecks. Lastly, even if they completely cut you off from your duals through waste/stifle/extirpate/moon you're out a whopping 4/60 cards (and that's just game 1)! Is that threat really worth not upping the objective power of the deck greatly? I mean, with the disruption this deck can throw out turn 1, I would figure an extremely nasty beater to follow on turn two would be right up Sui Blacks alley.
- I'm not buying a need for a change in Sideboarding either. The Worlds deck ran 4 Leyline in the board, which is imo the best yard hate available, and it worked fine. The decks you board Leyline in against you probably won't care that Goyf is only a 3/4ish. And if you do care, board him out! Hell, I would still run Distopia despite their apparent dis-synergy. I've run Deed in plenty of decks with Goyf. The key is, don't drop it unless you're up shits creek. And once again, you have the option to board him out if you choose.
Phantom -
The point is that those cards, Stifle/Magus/B2B/Wasteland/etc, were all 100% dead cards for your opponent. By including Goyf, you've now made them all relevant to varying degrees.
If your deck already supported green, I can see him included. By wedging him into mono-colored decks, like Sui and even MUC (I shit you not, there was talks of doing this), you gain a beater. But at what cost?
Also, if you're so quick to add Goyf', and accept the potential changes that go along with that, why not consider just running a bit more spot removal? Shade can hang with Goyf', and if you up your removal count to 6-8, I don't see a problem.
Completely disagree with this except in the rare build that runs no fetches and no wastes/Urborgs. I have made them MORE relevant (slightly in some cases) but they all did something against you before (if they want to board in B2B against me I'll do a flip). Also, you have stengthened the power of your deck against EVERY deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I'll say it again. You mildly affect your mana base to often no effect even against the few decks running LD in exchange for the best creature ever printed. I'll do this six days a week and twice on sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
The writing here is a tad convoluted. Are you suggesting that instead of running Goyf I simply run answers for him? The reason I don't do that is basic Magic deckbuilding theory. Answers suck. Threats are awesome. Answers can be useless. Threats never are. And I LOVE Shade, but there is no reason I can't run both and drop all the crappy 3cc options like Hippy or Negator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I have had a lot of experience running goyf in red death, and suicide black, and I have discovered that the reward is much greater than the risk. Goyf gets huge when backed with discard, and makes your clock so much faster.
It really does improve your matchups against every deck. There is no tempo lost in a splash, you only need 1 green mana for 1 turn, so wastelands don't effect you that much. The deck runs off of 2 mana, your lands getting wasted really isn't that horrible in most cases. you only need 3 bayou, and say 8 fetches.
I have also run 8 fetches, 4 confidants, and 4 thoughtseizes main, and the damage really isn't as bad as you guys make it out to be.
Seeing as you have a faster clock, what does it matter if you take a bit more damage? The only drawback is that it increases the cost of the deck, but that isn't all that bad, seeing as sinkholes and moxes are already pricey as it is.
Goyf + Discard, especially hymn is stupid good, and creates a situation that most decks cannot get out of.
Green sideboarding options cannot be overlooked either. Krosan Grip destroys some of the greatest threats to Sui Black, such as humility, deed, counterbalance, etc...
I know many of you play sui black because of the stable mana base, but your mana base is still very resilient with the splash. Give the green splash a shot, if you haven't tried it yet. What do you have to lose?
Phantom -
I run a very similiar list to Taco's build, and I do not run anything but 18 Swamp and 4 Dark Rituals as mana sources. No Wastelands, no Urborg secret tech, no fetches. Just rock-solid Swamps. If we are in the minority, then I'm speaking from the minority's point of view; non-basic hate cards are 100% dead versus me.
Using your logic, every deck in Magic should splash green for Goyf'. I do not agree with your reasoning behind adding a 2nd color to a mono-colored deck.
Also, re: threats v. answers, I do not agree. If that was the case, control would have been the worst archetype throughtout the history of Magic, as 95% of their decks aren't threats, but answers or answer-finders. Using your logic of Threats > Answers 100% of the time, why have decks like Keeper and GAT been successful in their respective Format? They only run 2-6 cards that are actually threats, the rest of their deck are simply answers and answer-finders.
About $400.00 according to my calculations. Also, you say you only need a green source for one turn to drop the goyf, but what if that bayou gets wasted and you never draw into a second land again? If you were mono-black running only swamps this would not ever be a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktail
Lol, we were discussing the inclusion without budget constraints, but yeah, that too.
I guess if you're of the opinion that if you play Magic, you play Goyf, then every deck should be splashing for green. And if they already have green as a color, then should be cutting for Goyf. Sounds fun. You either (a.) play him, (b.) play something to deal with him immediately, or (c.) lose.
This argument is silly. It's one thing to not play goyf because you don't own any. It's another to not run him because you think he ruins the deck.