I'll agree. Cradle has been nothing short of the tits for me.
Anyone here going to GP Seattle for the side events?
-Matt
Printable View
I'll agree. Cradle has been nothing short of the tits for me.
Anyone here going to GP Seattle for the side events?
-Matt
Cradle is in no way win more. Its just pure amazement.
You may even want to get it tattooed on your arm.
-Matt
I see it as a High Risk/High Reward card - there have definitely been games I lost if it was instead a Fetchland, and others that I had no business winning since I pumped an extra 2-5 mana from it to GSZ/Ooze/Equipment (many of these on camera too).
I am comfortable taking the risk with this card, but I wanted to examine whether everyone else had similar experiences with its variance.
Running one ofs in the hope of randomly drawing into it when it's beneficial and not when it isn't seems like terrible deckbuilding to me, so the question is really how often do you want to use Knight to tutor for it.
If you're running it in a spell slot with 4 equipment that include multiple Swords and even a Batterskull it seems fine, if a little iffy (because you won't usually have the Cradle I don't like Batterskull in this deck, and two singletons that are best together is sketch, even with some tutors.)
I'd like it a lot more with maindeck or sideboard Garruk, Primal Hunter, a card I've been thinking about running in the board of my GW list for the Blade Control matchup and slower attrition matchups generally.
The question is really if you have room in a spell slot and how much mileage you can get out of it that exceeds just attacking with the Knight or grabbing a Wasteland, rather than fetching a Cradle.
What are you guys thinking about Elspeth right now? I run her as a 2of at my last tournament (70+ players) and I lost my last game to get into top8.
I didn't enjoy her very much, she was usually a Giant Growth + Updraft or even worse a 1/1 for four mana.
Also, I'm seeing that most lists that are doing good are not playing any PW, but instead are going back to Sylvan Library, which to me seems a very good way to get back in shape after a mass removal.
Also, what do the people who tested Thalia think of her? On paper she looks pretty sexy, but I wouldn't play more than the 2, probably in side.
What do you say?
For me cradle is awesome. there are few situations where it is painful, and I search it time to time, mostly due to equipments, or wanting to speed up with zenith + other things. I wouldn't cut it.
In my meta there is a lot of GW maverick, and some Gwu. What would you run MD or SB for the mirror? I'm thinking in 3rd qsali, 2nd scavenging ooze, or elspeth, which wins many games alone.
All three. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia
I'm in the same boat. Occasionally you get a bad draw (cradle, maze, wasteland) and have to mull but that is rare compared to how often it allows you to pull way ahead on board. Even with the cradle I don't feel I an lacking white when I need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
why is it said that red maverick is weaker in comboMU?
Anyone know where i can watch some replays of people playing UW Maverick?
Because you have at least 4 more cards that do nothing in that particular matchup (e.g. Fire, the occasional Adn to 2 Life doesn't count). Red and GW both have a pretty bad Matchup against fast combo, the blue version is the only one with advantages via Vendilion Clique and SPierce out of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayray
but comparing red and GW, red version has red elemental blast to fight combo decks with blue better.
It's better when you have a hatebear on board with the redblast in hand, anyways, each version of Mav has a pretty horrible Combomatchup ^^
game 1 autolose..
This is the list I'm going to be running next week at a local tourney coming up. Unsure of the meta but I expect it to be little combo so I believe Maverick will do me good. I expect a lot of random, Maverick, StoneBlade decks, Zoo, Burn, and probably other cheap decks like Elves. Anyway, the list:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Worship
1 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Choke
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
I like the main deck a lot and have been on the fence between 2 Thalia main or 2 Elspeth. I went with the former to be more aggressive and at least have a shot if I run across any combo. I am most concerned with the SB. I basically filled it to answer a broad number of things. I opted for Worship over COP:Red, but I think either could work. Anyone have any thoughts on the two?
So how does it look for my suspected meta? Any thoughts or concerns?
RE: Rhox War Monk vs Kitchen Finks
Which one has led to more wins in SB games versus UR Delver and Burn?
I run 2 finks, 1 rhox.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Rhox is better against Burn particularly, but fink are rlly good against Deed and wrath of god decks. Rhox i good as a GSZ target, fnks are good on their own, and i board them in in a lot of MU.
Only thing I have to say about your mainboard is that you might add another Umezawa's Jitte, it would help a bit with Elves. Maybe 1 Elspeth also if you suspect a lot of stoneblade. About your sideboard: You have only one krosan grip, it cannot be tutored for and odds drawing that one-of seems a bit thin to make a difference. Only one choke. Now, choke is a really, really good card but it isn't a good one-of. You also can't think that you'll use Enlightened Tutor to find it, because you're playing against a blue deck and you don't want to lose 2 cards for one counterspell. Not sure about Aura of Silence, wouldn't rule of law be better? If you want something against enchantments serenity is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak
You have a lot of graveyard hate, if you suspect a lot of graveyard based decks move Bojuka Bog into mainboard for better G1 and wider sideboard. If you're expecting a lot of UW StoneBlade decks, I'd suggest you to play Garruk Relentless and Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the sideboard. Maybe even 5-mana Garruk.
These are my thoughts, hopefully some of them make you think and help you find the best possible sideboard.
I love Jitte so that may be a possibility. I'm really tight on spots already, so from my list posted, I am probably going to have to shave a land to get it to 60. I may go with the random 1/1 split of Sylvan and Elspeth, just because I like both cards and I have seen that done before, but it may be a little too random for my tastes. I really like my creature count too. I'll have to give it some thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
I threw in one Grip because I already have the one Aura of Silence. It isn't ALL that random but yes it still is. I want to have a couple outs to Humility or Deed so that's why those two are in there. Aura is good against combo, makes Deed cost a shit ton, and is just good in those corner cases you see in Legacy.
I totally agree with you on Choke and didn't realize that before. I was trying to get maximum space, so I will definitely add another. I'll probably get rid of the Metamorph since Prog has fallen out of favor from what it looks like (Damn, it's been a while since I've played Legacy ha).
I kind of flt the same way, so I think I may cut the Crypt. Wheel is really good against Dredge so I want to keep that and Surgicals are more versatile. I like Garruk a lot actually. It looks very powerful in that MU and anything with Black as well.Quote:
You have a lot of graveyard hate, if you suspect a lot of graveyard based decks move Bojuka Bog into mainboard for better G1 and wider sideboard. If you're expecting a lot of UW StoneBlade decks, I'd suggest you to play Garruk Relentless and Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the sideboard. Maybe even 5-mana Garruk.
Thank you very much! This is what I've restructured my board to:Quote:
These are my thoughts, hopefully some of them make you think and help you find the best possible sideboard.
SB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Worship / COP:Red
1 Stony Silence
1 Aura of Silence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Garruk Relentless
If anyone is interested, here is the list I won the Jupiter Event with yesterday:
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands
3 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Sword of feast and famine
1 Thalia, Guardian of Threban
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection:Red
1 Stony Silence
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Life from the Loam
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Manriki-gusari
1 Tower of the Magistrate
Hi guys, any suggestions for sb to my decklist, my biggest threats are junk, uw stoneblade, and mirror (punishing mav).
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Eternal Witness
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of war and peace
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
3 savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
Congrats man! Can you talk about how your sideboard worked (or if it didn't)?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBirdMan
Thanks!
Overall it worked well. I liked having many options that could be used against multiple decks. Like leyline for combo/burn as well as the cop for goblins/burn etc. The only card I am unsure of for the board is Ghostly prison but it seems really great against dredge and aggro decks. I didnt get a chance to play against a lot of aggro to see. The mvp for me out of the board would have to be Thrun. He won me a game against stoneblade and I was able to karakas it if they played a wrath effect. Thrun also won me the 2nd game against rug in the finals.
The sb choice that may seem wierd would be feast and famine in the board over the main, but I don't really like it except against control. I like the other 2 swords mb to be able to protect knights from any kind of removal when mother of runes doesnt stay on the table. Also being able to recur creatures and burn delvers is pretty great too.
Maverick mirror on SCG live at the moment.
Woot! Maverick wins another event! 4c "Fearless" build lol
Not really a fan of this "4c fearless" build, I feel like the red wasn't needed. GZ for William Cao! Was fun to watch the finals with a friend who plays dredge:
Quote:
Sami K says
"masterfully draws jitte from the top of his library"
"you can see how he got into the finals"
I also think the red was lacking. Blue seemed to pull its weight throughout the matches I watched and Punishing Fire was just lousy, only finishing someone off when the win seemed evident anyway. I think you can fix up the manabase and add in more creatures or whatever to improve consistency.
Geist, Rhox War Monk, and Pierce in the board looked really good. Crucible is also going into my 75.
I don't really like the Spell Pierce plan - even when playing 4 you have to take out a lot of gas to make it work, and you rely too much on random luck to draw it and be useful. For a deck that doesn't control the stack, trying to play counterspell seems really out of place.
Still seems like one of the best options against combo. Against control it also is a good way to ensure your bombs resolve/stay around. If I ever play a blue splash, I would definitely try at least 3 in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Link please :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zand
Hi guys.
After having tried seemingly everything within control i have reached the conclusion that Legacy after misstep is a collection of bad decks and Maverick. Given that Bazaar of Moxen and Ghent are coming up this summer I guess i should join the winning team instead of just spying;)
With that in mind i have a bunch of questions to the wise and experienced people in this thread.
What is your experience with the 3 Thalia package that i have seen in some lists? Is it good enough to win games against combo pre-board or are we trying to solve an unsolvable problem? How often does a singleton Teeg main steal games against combo?
How good is Thalia against control?
Have you experimented with running more than 1 Jitte, my team were discussing cutting the stoneforges for a 3 off jitte to allow more blowouts in the mirror with Jitte equip t3.
How about a second cradle? Seems like the deck goes nuts whenever you draw it.
How good is batterskull against non-burn decks? When do you want batterskull instead of Jitte?
Here is the first draft list for reference. I am a firm believer in getting down to the essentials. I don't like Geist and I think you loose more games to your own manabase then you win by running punishing fires.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Ooze
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Teeg
4 Knight
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Elspeth
2 Silvan Library
3 Jitte
1 Maze of Ith (I love this one in equipment battles)
1 Eternal Witness
4 Sword to Plowshares
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
If we were to run Thalia i would cut 2 Elspeth and a mindcensor for 3xThalia
Moving back to the stoneforge package would entail cutting 1 Jitte, 2 Elspeth for 2 stoneforge and a sword.
SB:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pridemage
1 Null Rod/Stony Silence
3 Choke (don't know if this is the best control hate at the moment, but i have certainly lost a lot to it)
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 COP Red/other monored hate
1 Thorn of Amathyst
2 Path to exile
1 Tormod's crypt
how is this 4c "Fearless" build?Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Sounds like he beat the best pilot of the most explosive Storm combo deck in the quarterfinals, so I'm guessing it worked quite well. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Tournament report, please!
Serious Question: Is your friend normally as bad of a dredge pilot as he appears on camera? He IS playing adam prozak's self-admitted suboptimal decklist from SCG cinci...Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
I have been playing punishing maverick over 6 months and the fires were great in the beginning but they have been becoming more and more underwhelming. I believe I am going to switch the 3 fires for 2 geist and 1 monk, 3 groves for 1 tropical, 1st cradle, and 3rd wasteland. Also switch 2 mindcensor for 2 thalia and see how I feel on that for the GPindy.
I am worried I am going to miss that removal for cliques, elves/mana dorks, delvers, confidants, metalworkers, and so many other great targets though...
I top 8'd yesterday at a small event in Columbus playing GW Maverick. Here was the list I was playing:
Equipment (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures (26)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Terravore
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Rhox War Monk // Played him for testing purposes, still thinking I should have Thalia in the list somewhere as a 2-3 of
Instants (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Sorceries (4)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands (21)
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard (15)
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Stony Silence
1 Worship
I'm still trying to find room to fit in for another land that taps for mana, but I don't think I can justify cutting any of the creatures as stoneforge can just be a blowout against some decks. I cut a Qasali Pridemage to test out the Rhox War Monk and I feel like it is very strong. I wasn't playing any blue sources at the in my manabase which did become a problem in the top 8. I was matched up against UB ANT and I was able to win game 1 when he resolved an infernal tutor for LED and casted a LED, LED, and in response to the second a pridemage blew up his first one. This made him miscount his mana and he was off by one from going off. Game two I had stuck a stony silence and he was able to go off by just casting the artifacts and with enough dark rituals he was able to win. During this game I had a Rhox War Monk in hand the entire game and not having a Tropical Island or Tundra in the deck killed me as I am sure I would have won if I was able to cast it and start beating with it. Game 3 we both mulled to 5 and I had to keep a 3 land, Sylvan Library, Swords to Plowshares hand. I ended up drawing a Worship and GSZ but I was not able to find the fourth land for the Worship and decided I had to go for Teeg. When I was one attack away from winning he slaughter pacted the Teeg and went off.
Conclusions: Rhox War Monk would've been great if I had put in at least one blue dual land but I had thought that the Noble Hierarchs and GSZ would have been enough to cast a one of spell with a blue mana in it. Even though I love Worship in casual play I can't justify playing it anymore yes it helps against the burn matchup and the RUG Delver matchup when they don't expect it but I think it would be better served as either another Rhox War Monk or Kitchen Finx.
FWIW, I have the Teeg in the sideboard. It has very little value in the maindeck oftentimes, and I've taken it out in sideboard games on too many numerous occasions.
I dont think rhox war monk belongs to the maindeck, its a very narrow creature that does nothing against a lot of MU. Its fine to have it in your sideboard against the Mu in which it really shines. Having it in the MD will make you draw it too often since won't be your prime GSZ target, and potentially make you loose games because of having a dead card in your hand.
In the Mu where you rlly want to have rhox, you won't be upset by GSZing for a noble in order to cast it (in case you were unlucky enough to draw it), where if you have to GSZ for a noble just to not have a dead card in your hand rather than GSZ for something more usefull you'll want to cut your vains.
I'll be honest and can't claim too much expertise with Maverick (though I have done VERY well in all tournaments I've played it in..just haven't gotten to play in a huge number of tournaments yet). But I absolutely love the deck and have put a lot of thought into it. Here are my takeaways from your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
First--Bojuku Bog to SB and 4th Wasteland instead. The reason is simple the bog is only amazing as a tutorable graveyard remover...except the decks you really want to do that against can be crippled by an ooze (re-animator and to a minor extent dredge..and before people disagree about dredge..play it a bunch..and then let me know they only run 8-10 dredgers..if you can remove 1-2 a turn that should hit them all). The other issue is you can't fetch the bog until turn 3 at the earliest (assuming you got your turn 2 KoTR) which means you had to have drawn KoTR within the first 2 turns (plus you're starting 7), whereas Ooze you can either draw or GSZ out by turn 2 and remove all the relevant threats by turn 3 as well..except you gained some life and got a big ooze).
Second--3 Jitte's a waste. I understand you want to win the Jitte war but if that's the case run another Eternal Witness (who has a lot more other uses). The only reason I see running the 3 jitte's is turn 2 Jitte more often. Batterskull is good against more than mono-red. It's amazing against Stoneblade because you're deck runs more threats AND you have maindeck solutions to their equipment (pridemage's). Remember Stoneblade still wins via damage...you get out a batterskull faster than them and then just wasteland the crap out of them. I run the standard 1 FaF/1 Batterskull/1 Jitte main and I'm happy with it.
Third--Thalia really is awesome. A lot of legacy decks are stingy on lands and often don't hit more then 3 in a standard game, forcing almost all their stuff (against a lot of combo/control decks) to cost 1 more and only a few of your cards (often mostly dead ones ala swords) you gain a huge advantage...such an advantage that I run 4 Thorn of Amethyst in my SB as it's amazing against all Combo/Control decks. Also keep in mind that her ability means Dredge has to actually PAY to cast Cabal Therapy/Dread Return..which given how small their mana base is means turn 2 thalia (off of a wasteland and savannah) can often be just as much game over as turn 1 tormod's crypt.
Fourth--I believe Choke is unnecessary currently. While it is really good against a lot of control/combo decks you can often waste-lock them faster. The Thorn of Amethyst/Thalia also serves a similar purpose (don't let them play their spells)..except those aren't restricted to people playing islands (which other than merfolk are all control/combo)
Fifth--It may be based on my metagame but we have a lot of affinity players around and your current sideboard is very weak to affinity. The problem is spot removal (ala StP) is marginal against them because they play so many similar creatures.
Those are my thoughts. please feel free to comment and let me know if you disagree.
Tonight I am going to test the Teeg in the board over Worship and take out the Rhox War Monk for 2 Thalia main. I'll let you guys know how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus