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Yeah dude, you would probably be better off just running Spell Pierce in the place of Duress. Is good against all the things Duress, is blue and lets you keep stifle mana open.
Also, I wouldn't want to cut back on Volcanic Islands at all, since Merfolk and Goblins will be trying to Wasteland it.
+1 I was going to say the same thing, but then I left work :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
I am trying something packing Mox Diamonds on both lists:
4 Dreadnought
1 Trinket Mage
3 Divining Top
3 mox diamond
4 stifle
4 force of will
4 standstill
3 counterbalance
3 spell snare
4 daze
2 engineered explosives
1 trickbind
1 crucible of worlds
4 Brainstorm
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishras factory
4 Scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Tormods crypt
1 relic of progenitus
4 lightning bolt
3 firespout
I just packed an additional playset of Simian Spirit Guides a coupple of days ago and wondered about how usefull they where (i didn't notice mox diamond and lotus petal that day) so pre board i could use it often to cast first turn standstill or just could play around dazes nicely. I didn't had any situation where i could have dropped a first turn nought but it still could be possible.
As i know that mox diamond will give card disadvantage i feld like having it in the UR build is no problem at all, i run Crucible, also post board it keeps EE viable even with blood moon and i really love dropping first turn CB,Standstill or just a top+look.
-> Anyone ever wasted ideas of playing electropotence with dreadnoughts just to give it a job?
Needs Thirst for Knowledge :tongue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by joey223
Why would you ever mull so much every game in a deck already full of card disadvantage especially since you removed standstills ,which are pretty much the draw engine of the deck. If you have to mull to five every game its definitely time to redesign your deck.
I'm thinking about correct choice of deck for GP Madrid in February. Although I'm playing Ugr Dreadstill for more than a year, so (more or less :wink: ) I know how to play it, Ugr Threshold seems to have more equal matchups with 90% of decks..
Why (if yes) would you stick to Dreadstill?
It plays counterbalance and has explosive startsQuote:
Originally Posted by KubaM
Yeah, Dreadstill is the only deck in the meta that combines heavy counter action with the potential to actually win on turn 4. It doesn't happen very often but I have won games against Ichorid and ANT when they were happy with their draw and then couldn't handle a turn 2 Dreadnought. There are no other decks that play counters that can handle that combination of opponents game 1 and dominate them off of a good draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
Sorry, but this isnt true....Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
The dreadstill isnt the ONLY deck with hard counter shell and can win in turn 4...
Letīs Rock:
Turn 1: Fetch, tropical island, noble hierarch, pass;
Turn 2: Land, something...
Turn 3: land, Natural Order, sac noble, put in game Jesus (read Progenitus);
Is amazing!
The guy will be killed in turn 5, is true, but with much more consistence.
I have the two builds decks (Pro Bant and Dreadstill), but, in my metagame (Zoo, zoo, zoo, zoo.... and.... ZOOOO!), the first version is more indicate.
Cyah,
Lammina!
Ok, I'm not usually one to even acknowledge trolls, but I'm a little annoyed right now... This is the last time I'm going to say this, Zoo is by no means a terrible matchup it's 45-55 at very worst as long as you don't play like a retard. And second you actually need more thing to happen for turn 3 Progenitus than and turn 2 Dreadnought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammina
Things needed for a turn 2 Dreadnought:
2 Lands (one being able to produce blue mana)
1 Stifle
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Things needed for a turn 3 Progenitus
3 Lands
1 Birds/Noble Hierarch
1 Natural Order
So it's actually less consistent to have a turn 3 Prog... :wink:
Turn 4 is not turn 5. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammina
The question is how the NOGenitus deck does against both Storm and Dredge game 1 before it boards in hate? My guess is it's DoA against Dredge and iffy against Storm. Dreadstill has a 33/67 matchup against Dredge game 1 and about a 70/30 matchup against Storm.
The thing that's really nice about Dreadstill is that it has a fairly smooth power relationship to the meta as a whole at the moment. It does have issues with Zoo, although you can win that matchup, and it does have issues with Merfolk before sideboarding, however it's a very consistent deck against most of the meta.
I don't see any mostly dead matchups in game 1 at this point. That's mainly because no matter what you're facing you have the chance at a turn 2 Dreadnought and a chance that you also have a counter to back it up for the 2 turns you need to kill after that. Having Stifle as a fully functional part of the package, because it also enables that turn 4 kill, is an advantage that many control decks cannot afford pre-board.
Fixed. I play both decks as well and Dreadstill is a much more fluid deck than Pro CBTop. Getting to 4 mana and a green creature is not as simple as it sounds. All of the deck's gas is sitting at 3-4cc, so if you get a hand that is lacking acceleration (and you only play 4 Hierarchs), it can be quite slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
That said... I would still play Pro CBTop is a major tourney just because of Zoo. I played Zoo in my last tourney and 2-0 Ur Dreadstill. 4 Path, 4 Pridemage, and 3-4 Krosan Grip from the SB is just too many answers to deal with.
This is a good point and I would say it's 40/60 in Dredge's favor game one, but 70/30 in Dreadstill's favor game two.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
My deck looks like this post SB:
4 Goyf (win)
3 Nought (removes bridges)
2 Trinket Mage (searches Crypts/EE)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 EE
3 Firespout
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle (counters Narcos)
1 Trickbind
2 Daze
1 Spell Snare
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's
6 Fetch
3 Volc
3 Trop
3 Island
It's a beating. Don't know how much the Dredge matchup matters to anyone here, but if Dredge ever becomes DTB, Dreadstill would prey on them.
On Dredge:
In my opinion it's very tough matchup. My sideboard plan is (Ugr):
In:
3x Firespout
3x REB
1x Trap
1x Crypt
1x Relic
Out:
2x Spell Snare
3x Standstill
4x CB
@keys are you running mainboard Bolts? Because if not, I see no point bringing them in against Dredge.
I don't run maindeck bolts anymore. I would take out 2 tops as well. Bolts at least kill Putrid Imp and Narcos. CounterTop is near worthless. With 3 relic/crypt + 2 Trinket Mage you're effectively playing 5 ways to reset them. EE and Firespout are also 5 total ways to sweep the board. You can either drop a turn 2 Nought and just race, or you can grind them out in the long game. Both are pretty effective, from my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by KubaM
In my testing, it's really really hard for Dredge to win unless they get a broken 1-2 turn hand AND Dreadstill doesn't have the counter.
Has it gone out of style to use 4x anti-GY in the SB?
My sideboard almost always looks like this:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
3x Firespout
2x Krosan Grip
I go +2 Tormod's, +2 Relic, +2 Pithing Needle, +3 Firespout, -3 Counterbalance, -2 Spell Snare, -3 Daze, -1 Sensei's Divining Top. Game 2 is pretty easy at that point unless I won game 1. Even then it's better than 50/50 and great in game 3.
If you are talking about Ichorid, I would say definitely don't board out Counterbalance. It keeps them off Cabal Therapy, so if you have FoW you can stop them from comboing out on you with Dread Return. Hitting Ancient Grudge can come in handy also. On the other hand, do board out Standstill, as they can probably accomplish more under than Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Also, my current SB has only 3 Tormod's Crypts. Most Dredge decks are just running Ancient Grudge these days to deal with artifact hate and Tormod's Crypt is faster. Additionally Tormod's Crypt is much more effective against Reanimator.
Also, I wouldn't want to board out Daze and probably wouldn't bring in Pithing Needle. It seems kinda weak against Putrid Imp and Stifle and Wasteland are already both effective against Cephalid Coliseum.
Being able to drop Pithing Needle turn 1 against Putrid Imp can really hamstring them. Also once you have that done if you land the other one on Cephalid Coliseum you can start messing with their mana base big time. Ichorid is very susceptible to getting mana screwed because they do use the Cities of Brass and Gemstone Mines to handle a lot of their needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
The other thing is that Sadistic Hypnotist is getting played now. It's nice to be able to shut that down too. Ichorid always seems to have one ringer in there somewhere with an activated ability where if it lands you're in deep trouble.
Counterbalance is on balance really weak against Ichorid and I prefer to have proactive things to do that hit their gameplan early on. I leave the Standstills in because there are situations where I'm going to lay them down, like when I have a Goyf out to block Ichorid. It's a 3 card dig for Force of Will if they try to Dread Return something nasty and it doesn't hurt against Cabal Therapy either.
Realistically the best use for either Standstill or Counterbalance in this matchup is to pitch to Force of Will though.
I agree that Pithing Needle is okay against Ichorid, but I don't believe that you should be boarding Daze, Top or Counterbalance to make it happen. Daze is way better on the play than Needle since it can answer things other than Putrid Imp on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I can't imagine an Ichorid player Dread Returning under a Standstill without Cabal Therapying first. At any rate, Counterbalance does alot against Ichorid. If they are DDDing you, you will have time get it set up and be able to counter their Therapies and Ancient Grudges. If you keep your Dazes in, and board in a few REBs, they won't be able to combo quickly against you.
I strongly disagree. Trying to set up CounterTop to counter the few spell they actually play is not worthwhile. Out of all the cards you could possibly counter (Breakthrough, Careful Study, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Pithing Needle, and Cabal Therapy), Therapy is the only one that it might have time to stop. All the others will be played turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by BKclassic
You're much better off boarding in removal like Bolt, and obviously Daze should never be boarded out.
Another thing-- I would never play Standstill against Dredge, unless the board position is so good that you'll win the next turn (but more often I'd just save it to pitch to FoW). Dredge is built to run without spells, and it's way too easy for them to take advantage of that... if you end up having to break it yourself, you basically let them combo off.
It all depends on how many cards you have to board in versus Dredge and your MD setup. Counterbalance obviously isn't the most interactive card against Dredge, but if they are just DDDing, I stand by the idea that they are going to have a hard time winning if they can't Therapy or Grudge you. My sideboarding strategy for Ichorid definitely involves leaving a few in.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
The problem I have with Daze against Ichorid, even on the play, is that giving up the land drop is as bad as most of the things you'd try to counter.
When Ichorid sees an Island in front of them on the draw and know that you have Daze in the deck they generally slow play to turn 2, often to the point of just drawing a card and discarding what they want into the GY. Dazes can have an impact but only if they are very sloppy about setting up. An Ichorid player who plays Putrid Imp into an Island on turn 1 deserves to get caught with 6 cards in hand and no discard outlet. It's just much sounder for them to either drop a land and pass, playing Putrid Imp and rolling on turn 2, or discard the card they want into the graveyard and waiting to drop a land until turn 2.
Really I think it's hard to go wrong though once you have sided for Ichorid, it's just a very favorable matchup at that point and Daze or no you're probably going to have a good chance to win. The graveyard hate is just so good at this point that it's hard to win through it.
Mike Pyroblast/REB is nutterbutters against Dredge bring it in over Standstill. (and if your only running 3 Standstill sideout the last Spell Snare for the 4th REB.)Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I see what you're aiming at. The blue count gets really low at that point though. Blue in with that boarding: 4x FoW, 4x Brainstorm, 4x Stifle, 1x Trickbind, 2x Trinket Mage = 15. That's kind of rockbottom low. I'd probably pull the Firespouts at that point for some of the blue back.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
What I really want to do after boarding against Ichorid is to attack their plan with all the permanents I can. The weakness of Ichorid is the dependence on discard outlets, the tendency to over-commit into sweepers (no way around that given the engine) and then the exposure that playing with an open hand creates - with a massive mind twist always just around the corner.
I assume when I'm playing them that if they got an absolute nuts draw I'm probably dead. There's a small chance to stop that but it's just a small chance. Most of the time they're planning to go off turn 3 and by then it's pretty easy to have a board position that mostly prevents that.
When I relied on Daze and FoW and especially Counterbalance I found myself losing that race to turn 3 often. Daze puts you behind a land so the sweepers go off a turn later than you can afford, FoW costs you card advantage and is only worth it if you're going to die if you can't counter right now, and Counterbalance is just slow to setup and then it hardly counters anything they want to do.
So what I try to do is get set up to sweep with either EE or Firespout reliably, cut off a discard outlet with Pithing Needle if I can and plan to FoW on LED if it happens very early or on Dread Return in the midgame.
So far it seems to work pretty well. I know you've played a lot more against dredge than I have so you probably have insights into the matchup that I don't see. I've been matched up against Ichorid maybe 5 times overall in tourneys at this point and I'm 2-1 with Dreadstill and 1-1 with that Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon deck.
It's really simple-- make these changes game 2-3, and the match swings in your favor:
-4 Counterbalance
-3 Top
-3 Standstill
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout
+3 Crypt/Relic
+3 Lighning Bolt
+3 REB/blast
The last 3 might be Sower/Submerge/Needle/whatever, but your board should have those 12 spells. Granted some people play burn maindeck and that's fine, but if you don't play all of those cards in total, I really think you've got it wrong.
I wouldn't worry too much about blue count. 15 is not ideal, but it's still playable. You only need to counter their draw and Dread Returns. REB helps with the draw, and DR doesn't happen until about turn 4.
Also, congrats on 100 pages everyone ;D
I mostly agree with your point of view, my side plan against Dredge is almost the same. However, I wouldn't board out TOP's to board in Bolts. Lightning Bolt in my opinion isn't that great against Dredge, and TOP can help you 'mill' your deck to resolve Nought ASAP. Anyway, I'll do some intensive testing WITH Bolts before Madrid. Maybe you are right. At the moment I believe that you can compare Bolt to...CB in this matchup. It is possible it could help you a bit, but other cards are superior to it.Quote:
It's really simple-- make these changes game 2-3, and the match swings in your favor:
-4 Counterbalance
-3 Top
-3 Standstill
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Firespout
+3 Crypt/Relic
+3 Lighning Bolt
+3 REB/blast
The last 3 might be Sower/Submerge/Needle/whatever, but your board should have those 12 spells. Granted some people play burn maindeck and that's fine, but if you don't play all of those cards in total, I really think you've got it wrong.
I wouldn't worry too much about blue count. 15 is not ideal, but it's still playable. You only need to counter their draw and Dread Returns. REB helps with the draw, and DR doesn't happen until about turn 4.
:cool: I'm very happy that after some quiet months discussion on Dreadstill is on again. While Ugr mainboard seems to be completed at the moment, for example Dredge matchup discussion shows that there is still a lot to be said about different Dreadstill matchupsQuote:
Also, congrats on 100 pages everyone ;D
What decks does Lightning Bolt improve the matchup enough that it is worth siding out something that is effective to put it in?
I see Zoo and Merfolk as the obvious cases. Against Zoo I already want to put in 3x Firespout and 2x Pithing Needle (Qasali Pridemage.) For those I take out 3x Standstill and then squeeze a couple of other choices depending on which variant of Zoo I'm looking at. There are really no obvious cards other than Standstill to come out in the Zoo matchup. Pulling a Dreadnought is doable but the choices get tough after that, especially if I'm on the play game 2.
Against Merfolk I already want to put in 3x Firespout and 4x REB/Pyroblast for which I take out 3x Standstill, 3x Daze and 1x Counterbalance, It's really hard to find 3 or 4 more slots for bolts and that's one of the reasons I pulled them out of the sideboard. I leave 2x Counterbalance in because you can lock out Merfolk in the midgame after you have countered Vial or EE'd it, it's too strong a stabilizer to abandon it completely even though Merfolk has good answers for it.
I know Rodney and Tom have tried pulling FoW in the matchup and I guess that's an option, since it frees you from blue count issues. Aether Vial is so disruptive that I'm kind of leery of doing that.
I pulled the 4x Lightning Bolt in the sideboard because it gave me +1 GY hate, +2 Pithing Needle (I had dropped these but they are too good not have in a deck with Trinket Mages) and +1 REB. I keep going back and forth on whether it's good to have a solid general card in the sideboard of a solid general deck or whether it's better to reinforce the spikiness in a bunch of matchups that are otherwise 50/50 after boarding.
I only play 3 in the SB, but Lightning Bolt is good against all kinds of aggro-- like Eva Green, Goblins and some rogue decks, not just Zoo/Merfolk. Here are my SB plans for those:
Zoo
+3 Lightning Bolt
+3 Firespout
-3 Standstill
-2 Daze
-1 Dreadnought
Merfolk
+3 Lightning Bolt
+3 Firespout
+3 REB
-3 Standstill
-2 Daze
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dreadnought
-1 Trickbind
Hello, I've been reading these forums for god knows how long, but this is the first time I'm actually posting anything. I've been toying and playing with UGR Dreadstill for 4 months, and I can easily say that it's my favorite deck of all the possibilities available in Legacy.
There is a tiny problem with this statement.. :>Quote:
Originally Posted by KubaM
The build I'm using at the moment:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
I've been trying to fit 4th Counterbalance and 3rd Sensei's Divining Top to the deck from time to time, but I don't really want to remove anything else than 1 Daze from the current build. I know that Pippo84 plays with 61 cards to get around this "problem", but that's not an option for me.
Just how important is the 4/3 CB/Top split compared to 3/2 split in contrast to going down to 2 Daze from 4 or 3? What would you do to get 4/3 CB/Top while maintaining 60 cards MD?
Thanks for keeping this thread alive!
-kortero
Well, depends on playstyle but I think daze it's important to get a turn2 cb or nought. Also, I'm not sold on spell snare, playing your exact list but replacing spell snares for two fire//ice's and a top. Spell snare becomes useless when you have cb online, that's why I obvied emQuote:
Originally Posted by kortero
@Kortero- every one's MD probably varies a little bit. I have 3 Trinket Mages and 3 Sowers in mine, for example. :smile:
At any rate, I would say its a meta call. For example, if you play against alot of Ancient Tomb, Aggro and Combo decks in your meta, Daze is awesome. However, if it more aggro-control and control orientated, I would run more Counterbalance/Top.
Where I'd really like Spell Snare is in the sideboard but there's just no room for it at all. There are so many matchups where Spell Snare is just an amazing counter and then there are matchups where it is blah. I'd really like to maindeck Daze and have Spell Snare as an option on the draw so I had a simple way to replace Daze when it is clearly a poor option.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
This is pretty much what I thought, but I just had to ask.
I remember an old saying associated with computers a long time ago - "Don't fix it if it isn't broken".
Maybe I need to take this advice and continue with the current configuration as I've been really pleased with the deck overall.
-kortero
I run 3 Spell Pierce in sideboard and have to say worked great.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
@Kortero - Your build is actually pretty typical, except most people only play 2 Daze and go up to 4 CB/3 Top. Daze is helpful at landing your T2 plays but (a) it's dead later in the game and (B) it's possible for an opponent to play around it. I've found 2 to be a good number because you still get the benefit of (b) while also not topdecking it so often.
@johanessen - I generally agree with you about the overlap of Spell Snare and CB, but it's just too good to pass up. There are so many significant targets that a little redundancy is acceptable. Fire//Ice always felt a little slow to me when I tried it maindeck, so I switched to Bolts, but then I was missing the extra counters. I eventually put the Bolts back in the board and I've been satisfied with just Snares. They're almost as good as Bolt versus Zoo/Merfolk since they hit Pridemage/Goyf/PoP as well as Standstill/LoA, but they also help a lot more in other matchups like combo, for example (which, to be fair, is already a good matchup, but having those extra counters for tutors is really helpful because you can't expect to draw FoW or CB every game).
keys: Yeah, I've seen plenty of lists with 4/3 CB/Top and 2 Daze. Somehow I feel like the optimal amount of Daze would be three so at the moment I'm testing with 4/3 CB/Top, 3 Daze and 2 Spell Snare. If I decide to keep 4/3 CB/Top instead of 3/2 split it's either 2 Daze and 3 Snare or the other way around. Well, it's close anyhow, and I must just play more with different kinds of setups to get the right feeling about the optimal build.. for me.
-kortero
To start I must say I'm happy the thread is alive again! Good news!!
The discussion of the MU's is very interesting, we should evolve it because the main deck is ok atm and the core list everyone plays is the same except for a few personal changes.
Since I also play Dredge I must say my opinion. After sideboarding so many sweepers + bolts + gy hate the mu is quite easy.
If I would cut a spell to my list and go to 60 cards I would not cut a Daze and not even a Spell Snare (tried both) but I would go down to just 1 EE. From my style of play I like counters and found that it's very unlikely for me to use both EE in a game so probably 1 is enought.
And Congratz on 100 pages!
pippo84: Funny thing, I just bought a playset of AN City of Brasses, and therefore I had to buy the rest of the cards to the only deck that uses them, Dredge. I have no real experience on the deck yet, but I like the fact that it's completely different than anything else in constructed magic.
I've also thought about going down to 1 EE instead of Daze/Snare, but I don't want to rely on Trinket Mage to tutor for it. It has pretty much never been a dead card in my hand when I've drawn one of the 2 EE's.
-kortero
@kortero: If you have EE in your hand it's almost never a dead card, and since we play 2 you don't see them often in hand and have to look for them with Top, Brainstorm or tutor with Trinket Mage. It's really a strong card, but I rarely use both in a match and therefore it would be the card I would cut instead of counters.
Interesting fact that we both got Dredge recently! :smile:
Hi everyone, beside the UGR list i was running for #7 on a small local tournament listed on deckcheck.net i had some practice games with Mox Diamonds and they are awesome, i tried following list as i had no better idea:
4 Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
3 Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
1 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
2 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishras factory
1 academy ruins
Diamonds are amasing with explosives and give the Deck a bit more speed as we can drop everything faster than usual so i really often could win matches by dropping counterbalance or standstill faster than their threats, also its great for playing 2nd turn blood moon post board without any color problem and makes Firespouts as fast as Pyroclasms (some people know it matters when we're facing aggro). I am not sure if i wanna keep crucible/academy ruins for the mainboard but i really love them on matchups like countertop,ITF,Landstill or other control matchups,
by playing the diamonds their costs are not that bad at all so even academy ruins keeping EE beeing possible to set on 0-4 (depends on the moxes i have in play, even 5 would be possible) all over the time is awesome.
Hey guys! today I played in my weekly tournament and got owned:tongue:
This week I took out the black and added red for firespouts REB and bolts in the SB. it was a really basic list nothing special to it just basically anybody elses list.
lots of post's lately! keep it up guys! Good luck!