All B/R update speculation.

Turbo Xerox/Cantrip Cartel/whatever you want to call it is an engine, it's just a bit more flexible than other engines (or your ability to commensurate with another person's perspective). It still perpetuates itself by having the ability to use the cantrips to string them together, or to get a fetchland. If they find a reason to break the chain (found threat/answer/land/build storm count sufficiently) their engine stops firing and begins again when another chain starts via a Cantrip being cast.

I would love to take a glimpse into the world where there are no fetches in legacy but I do not want to be the world to test it out. I think it would be wildly interesting but it just seems like too fundamental of a change to even take a reasonable guess at what would happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

But most of all, I'd really like if the ban-fetchland supporters cared to answer just a single question, in regard of "format diversity": do you think canadian threshold, show and tell, miracles, reanimator, aggro loam, elves, ANT are each the same and equal to one another? Do they all have the same gameplan, do you have the same game experience playing with or against each one of them as if they were all identical?

If not (and I can't see how you can seriously mantain the contrary) you cannot arbitrarily divide the metagame in "decks with fetchlands" and "decks withouth fechlands" because there are many other things that define a deck build and strategy.
So, you have no solid ground to say that fetchlands decrease the format diversity, even less so when you can't accurately predict what a format withouth them would be.

To say that they diminish the format diversity using only their number as an argument, is like saying that vintage diversity is diminished because everybody (except dredge) plays black lotus (not only turbo xerox but even workshop decks). So, should they ban black lotus? Or maybe you can accept that vintage is DEFINED as a FORMAT by the fact that you get to play the most broken cards ever printed. In the same way, LEGACY IS DEFINED by the fact that you can play brainstorm (fetchlands, force of will, wasteland). You should just accept that, or go play another format instead of trying to ruin it for the ones that enjoy that.
(Not that you can succeed in that; and before you start again accusing me of liking turbo xerox: of course, but you don't see me arguing that WOTC should ban blood moon, magus of the moon, chalice of the void, trinisphere and sol-lands. I accept they are part of what the format is).

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Your comment above clearly indicates your lack of understanding as to why fetch lands hinder diversity. It doesnt have to do with a decks ability to play different strategies. It has to do with a decks ability to be so efficient that it doesnt allow other decks to flourish. It sets the ceiling higher than necessary.

For example, assume that with fetchlands there are 10x tier 1 decks. Without fetchlands, all of those tier 1 decks become tier 2 decks and there are no tier 1 decks. A deck that was tier 3 that did not use fetchlands will now have a much better chance against tier 2 decks whereas they wouldnt really stand much of a chance against those 10 decks as tier 1 because there are 2 tiers between them. The ceiling is considered lower because everything that was tier 1 is now tier 2. Also now that fetchlands are gone, there are 20x decks that are tier 2 (the 10 from before fetchlands were banned, and 10 that moved there from tier 1).

This example is not perfect and there are flaws. It assumes that fetchlands create efficiencies that separate decks win rates. I think we all agree that it does (try playing a 3 color deck with fetchlands and then without).

Probably not the best example but jesus, understand the issue that is being discussed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

Your comment above clearly indicates your lack of understanding as to why fetch lands hinder diversity. It doesnt have to do with a decks ability to play different strategies. It has to do with a decks ability to be so efficient that it doesnt allow other decks to flourish. It sets the ceiling higher than necessary.

For example, assume that with fetchlands there are 10x tier 1 decks. Without fetchlands, all of those tier 1 decks become tier 2 decks and there are no tier 1 decks. A deck that was tier 3 that did not use fetchlands will now have a much better chance against tier 2 decks whereas they wouldnt really stand much of a chance against those 10 decks as tier 1 because there are 2 tiers between them. The ceiling is considered lower because everything that was tier 1 is now tier 2. Also now that fetchlands are gone, there are 20x decks that are tier 2 (the 10 from before fetchlands were banned, and 10 that moved there from tier 1).

This example is not perfect and there are flaws. It assumes that fetchlands create efficiencies that separate decks win rates. I think we all agree that it does (try playing a 3 color deck with fetchlands and then without).

Probably not the best example but jesus, understand the issue that is being discussed.

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I think his main argument is flawed in that he considers fetchlands to provide a symmetrical benefit to all colors, when they clearly dont. This is the main crux of the argument for banning fetches, because fetches are much more beneficial to colors that are able to manipulate the top of their library. Without top, that ability is almost exclusively blue (outside of exceptions like sylvan library). The rest of his arguments are essentially made exclusively for blue decks and ignore the fact that every non-blue based deck already has to deal with issues of inconsistency that he claims would hurt the format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

It's fine to have a different opinion, but you have failed to lay out a logical basis for your claim. (...) In the same post you expect us to listen to your expert opinion predicting legacy implications based on a standard deck you played? really?

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I shouldn't even reply to you since you keep with offensive tones. I spent time explaining myself; of course you can disagree, but you can't keep distorting what I said.
And by the way, I am able to listen to a different point of view, that's why I reply with quotes, which most of you keep refusing to do. But if somebody states as a divine revelation something that has no ground, I will keep answering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

Your comment above clearly indicates your lack of understanding as to why fetch lands hinder diversity. It doesnt have to do with a decks ability to play different strategies. It has to do with a decks ability to be so efficient that it doesnt allow other decks to flourish. (...)
For example, assume that with fetchlands there are 10x tier 1 decks. Without fetchlands, all of those tier 1 decks become tier 2 decks and there are no tier 1 decks. (...) Also now that fetchlands are gone, there are 20x decks that are tier 2 (the 10 from before fetchlands were banned, and 10 that moved there from tier 1).
Probably not the best example but jesus, understand the issue that is being discussed.

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(I'd like to note that there exist non cantrip fetchlands decks and, again, that it's completely arbitrarily and bad-founded to divide the metagame in fetchland and non-fetchland decks).
I can follow this line of reasoning (it's still an hypothesis and I don't agree, because it's not proven et cetera, but let's follow it). But you have to note that it's not me that I don't understand the issue; it's you that have changed the topic.
If you say that fetchlands hinder diversity, the meaning (maybe being a non native english speaker matters) is "there are too few different decks in the format". That's plainly false. Indeed, now you change your topic and say "no, all that I want is to weaken the fetchlands archetypes, in order to power up tier 2 decks". (I'd like to note that I was accused of being disonhest suggesting that someone could have a different hidden agenda).
Different thing. I will fight you, I think that's a symptom of your hate against some kind of decks, may be the same hate that some have against "the cantrip cartel". But at least it's honest. Somebody else in this thread wasn't as honest as you, and said very different things. Somebody said that it's not a matter of preference but an indisputable FACT.
Now is it or is it not exactly a matter of personal likes and dislikes wanting current tiers to be weakened?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phonics

I think his main argument is flawed in that he considers fetchlands to provide a symmetrical benefit to all colors, when they clearly dont. This is the main crux of the argument for banning fetches, because fetches are much more beneficial to colors that are able to manipulate the top of their library

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actually, in this thread I saw people saying that the main trouble with fetchlands was that they enable delve. Since there is plenty of different reasons stated by the "ban the fetchlands" supporters, many competing for the most crazy one, it's difficult to reply to each one. A few of them have a logic behind them and I have no problem to discuss with someone like apple713 here.
I have no problem admitting the very obvious thing that brainstorm is more powerful when you have access to a fetch. But I will not accept that fetchlands are not beneficial to any color, because they are, and I also took in consideration in my list some non-blue decks.
The fact that blue decks tend to perform better than non-blue decks is an entire different thing, and again, I mantain that it would be true even with fetchlands gone. This game is blue since its very beginning, you should deal with it. If you don't like this you can play another game, or a tier2, or hell, even continue with your crazy crusade against the "cantrip cartel", but at least aknowledge that fetchlands have very little to do with that.



PS

Quote:

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It doesnt have to do with a decks ability to play different strategies. It has to do with a decks ability to be so efficient that it doesnt allow other decks to flourish

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If that's your objective, fetchlands or not, you have no hope. For every format, there will always be a moment when the metagame is "solved" and tiers that "push out" less performing decks emerge. That's why for me the healthiness of a format has to be measured by the number of different strategies that can be played (and by the experience you have).
Of course we can't agree if we pursue different objectives. That's why it's important being honest with what each of us desires.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

I shouldn't even reply to you since you keep with offensive tones.

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That's coming from someone who cant write a post without any insult or personal attack. Hilarious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

In this thread I saw people saying that the main trouble with fetchlands was that they enable delve.

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I see that you still haven't bothered with the arguments, but opt to keep using strawmen. This goes in line with your "You all just dont like Fetchlands" and "Fetchlands are no engine".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

But I will not accept that fetchlands are not beneficial to any color, because they are, and I also took in consideration in my list some non-blue decks.

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They are not equally beneficial to each color. It has been outlined several times in thus thread, because Tournament data obviously is not good enough for you for whatever reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

The fact that blue decks tend to perform better than non-blue decks is an entire different thing, and again, I mantain that it would be true even with fetchlands gone.

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It's pure irony that you mock people for being unable to reliably forecast a hypothetical fetchless metagame, yet you make a baseless claim here yourself. There is the chance that Preordain/Serum Visions/Ponder + FoW will form a backbone for blue decks, but there is no chance we can guarantee that it remains superior to non-blue cores running on the back of Dark Confidant, Loam, Zenith, Explorer, etc.

Hello Lemnear, thanks again for shitposting!
Are we in a race for the first to reach page 1.000 of this thread, that should change name into "a place for people to complain?"

Yes, I already said that I respond to trolls by trolling, that's all you can get.
But I don't misinterpret on purpose what others say. I never said that I am able to do a perfect prediction. I am not english native speaker, so beg your pardon if when I write "I mantain" it's not clear that I am simply stating that I don't change my opinion. I'm not the one who mistakes facts for interpretations.

Yes, I still think the vast majority of "ban fetchland" simply don't like them. Some of you even admitted it: it's not that the format lacks diversity, if with "diversity" we intend the number of archetypes playable. It's just that you really, reeeaaaly would like turbo xerox to die, beg your bardon again, present tiers1 to become tiers2. By some huge leap of (non)logic, you think that banning fetchland would accomplish this.

If you want to make a crusade against brainstorm, or turbo xerox, or against blue as a whole (I find it even more stupid) at least be honest and don't use fetchlands as a straw argument.

The definitive answer to your argument was given by someone else, who tried to explain to you that if you switch from rock,paper,scissor to rock,paper,scissor,lizard,spock you haven't accomplished anything. Can I be sure that banning fetches this would be what happens? Of course not. But neither can you. So when I say that turbo xerox will still reign, I'm simply making an hypothesis, just like you all. But I think all the data and all the "rational arguments" as you call them point in this very direction.
I'd say to you "just try it"... but unfortunately (for you) I don't think WOTC is particularly listening to your complains. You can always try to put a road sign in their parking. But given they say that most people love brainstorm... I think you should start considering that people who thinks like me are a majority, you are only more vocal.

Have fun

PS. if you really want to have a constructive discussion,

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I see that you still haven't bothered with the arguments

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make a "definitive" numbered list. I'll respond point by point telling in my personal view what I agree with, what I don't, and what according to me simply doesn't make sense.
But then, you'll have to agree to answer in the same way, point by point, to my numbered list.
Also, to be clear, first of all define what you consider "healtiness" of the format and what exactly you want to accomplish.

Sorry I left my copy of Robert's Rules of Order at home so you'll just have to deal with paragraphs.

Long time lurker, second time poster (at least in this thread). So, I've been doing some research and I believe what's happened is that a few of the frequent posters in this thread have unintentionally conjured up a tulpa. For the uninitiated, the tulpa is a being created purely from thought, often referred to in esoteric texts as a "thought form" or "emanation".

These creatures, with enough of the original train of thought to feed upon may begin to believe that they are free and independent entities and will, as a way of justifying this and their own continued existence, begin to take up contradictory positions to both generate the thought energy necessary for the tulpa's survival and to again prove to those that may have unwittingly called it into existence that it is truly human. Once conjured and fed, tulpas can be incredibly hard to banish back to the realms of pure thought, especially when fed with significant amounts of vitriol and invective.

One common way to exorcise the tupla is to confront it with a true human consciousness so recalcitrant and self-assured, so delusionally certain its opinions are facts that the tulpa is vaporized in the white-hot intensity of pure, true personality. My friends, the time is now. He may not be the hero we deserve, but he is the one we need. #freenedleeds

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Originally Posted by talpa

make a "definitive" numbered list. I'll respond point by point telling in my personal view what I agree with, what I don't, and what according to me simply doesn't make sense.

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Nice, that you request a list which we have had 2 or 3 of already. Your constant lack of attention for the ongoing discussion really amazes me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Nice, that you request a list which we have had 2 or 3 of already. Your constant lack of attention for the ongoing discussion really amazes me.

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That's fun, because
1) demonstrates once and for all (as if we needed more proof) that the one who is trolling is you, because you refused to post this (inexistent) list. It's been 10+ pages that you keep saying "we already listed plenty of reasons" while giving none.
2) because I just took time to re-read again the last 20 pages, and still haven't found a single real motivation in favour of the fetchland ban except "diminshing the time lost to shuffle".

This one I can agree it is real, I just think it's not so relevant (after all, we almost always get to end our 3 games in time even in paper events) and that's not enough for motivating a ban; more so because it would have plenty of other "side effects".
When I say it's the only "real" reason I found, I mean a reason to ban fetchlands "per se", without a hidden agenda like "I don't like tri-color decks" or "I hate brainstorm".

Fortunately, I can do the recap for you.
Humprey, 2018/07/02 "with fetchlands banned, deathrite could have stayed".
That's not an argument in favour of fetchland ban. Who says deathrite SHOULD stay?

SecretlyABee, 2018/07/03 (paraphrase) "brainstorm without fetchlands is much a worse card"
So you want to ban fetchland because you'd want brainstorm banned but since Forsythe said it's a pillar of the format you have to try to reach the same goal by pointing to a different target.

Apple713, 2018/07/03 (paraphrase) "damn, Forsythe, why don't you shut up?"
Apple713, 2018/07/04 "I don't hate brainstorm, it's just that it diminish the diversity of the format"
Definition of diversity unclear, since we have 80+ playable archetypes (source tcdecks). The paraphrase is as we saw a few post before "I want tier2 decks to be more powerful"

bruizar, 2018/07/04 with fetchland ban
1) duals diminish their prize
2) other lands could be playable
3) brainstorm loses
1) plenty of people immediately had a laugh (hell, even Lemnear himself) since with our supernatural predictive power we think it would be quite the opposite
2) who cares to play with celestial colonnade in legacy
3) again, it's a "ban brainstorm" bandwagon masqueraded as a "ban fetchland"

Finn, 2018/07/05 "without fetches, brainstorm would be weakened"
Wow, that tweet of Forsythe must have really shocked you all.

MrSafety, 2018/07/05 "[the ban would] fix brainstorm, the delve mechanic (somewhat) and reduce the time lost to shuffling"
Again "who said brainstorm need fixing".
I'd agree to take in consideration the third argument. As for the second one, it is sound but admittedly could not be enough, since the honest use of somewhat. I think cantrips without fetchlands by themselves would be too much to safely unban TC and DTT. Anyway, even if it was sound, who said that we are better with TC and DTT withouth fetchlands than we are with fetchlands and without TC and DTT? ban 10 cards to unban those two (and maybe top and deathrite)? Who said that top without fetchland wouldn't still be too powerful? I'd say it would.

Barook, 2018/07/05 "I forgot to say blue would still be the best color"
Not a reason, but nice to see someone who is "neutral to the banning of fetchland" see the things the same way I do.

Lemnear, 2018/07/05 "fetchlands allows you to 1) shuffle chaff away 2) avoid wasteland/blood moon 3) free fill graveyard 4) access any color
Almost accurate description of what they DO; nothing said about why we all should agree that's BAD.
Also, only almost accurate, because 1) can't work without a brainstorm 2) if you fetch a dual, you are still exposed, and you are exposed to stifle; you are still exposed to blood moon t1.

Andy Prime, 2018/07/05 "it would cut the chances of cheating"
plenty of people already answered that find the cheaters should be a priority anyway (and fetchlands are not the only occasion to shuffle, even less so the only occasion to cheat)

Lemnear, 2018/07/06 "it has become a running joke to ban everything but fetches, brainstorm and ponder
Forsythe, I'm starting to love you. You hurt these people bad. Also as somebody else immediately answered "that running joke is the VERY DEFINITION of WHAT LEGACY IS"

Finn, 2018/07/06 "it would be 2005 all over again"
Not that this is an argument for banning fetchlands, but I have a soft spot for nostalgia. But we just had a deathrite ban, you can enjoy freshness for a while.

birds of paradise, 2018/07/06 "they allow to find any of seven color pairs"
seven? SEVEN? when were three of the fetches already banned? which ones are those?

apple713, 2018/07/08 "fetchlands make more colors too easy"
So what? we should all love only mono- and bi-colored decks?
What's the definition of "too" easy? (tricolors decks still lose to stifle+wasteland)

Then I started posting saying the only reason you all wrote was "ban them because I don't like em"
I think the above list speaks for how good or bad my impression was with regards to the quality of the arguments.

Regards.

Unban earthcraft.

Have there been many large paper events since the bans? Interested in seeing if DRS fueled archetypes are still good enough without

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Have there been many large paper events since the bans? Interested in seeing if DRS fueled archetypes are still good enough without

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I believe scg is on day two of a team event with over 100 teams.

I think the main argument for fetchlands and cards like brainstorm/Ponder/SDT etc is less about diversity and more about consistency.

I think it's less about banning specific cards and more about printing better cards in other colors.

It was unfortunate that top got banned as it + fetchlands gave other decks a way to manipulate their draws as well despite the best one (miracles) being blue.

I enjoy the format as it is, and don't mind waiting around for some new tools. The blue decks are heavily optimized already (same with ant/tes/elves etc).

Legacy always is more enjoyable for me when new cards come out that can help the niche decks, but don't align with the optimized other decks.

Time will come when other colors can add some consistency. The game is always evolving. Sometimes you have to approach the game from a different angle to get some wins in.

It is safer to play the blue cantrips and fetches instead of other methods, but how many people here are playing outside of locals that are greater than 4 rounds? If so, how many times per year?

I play mostly the weekly events which don't last more than 4 rounds. When I was playing modo I did do a lot a leagues. Both of these venues are great for jamming any kind of deck.

EPIC...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirkusjones

One common way to exorcise the tupla is to confront it with a true human consciousness so recalcitrant and self-assured, so delusionally certain its opinions are facts that the tulpa is vaporized in the white-hot intensity of pure, true personality. My friends, the time is now. He may not be the hero we deserve, but he is the one we need. #freenedleeds

---

https://i.imgur.com/4XTtv9O.jpg

#freenedleeds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gp73EZdObM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Have there been many large paper events since the bans? Interested in seeing if DRS fueled archetypes are still good enough without

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A 140-player SCG classic just finished in Worcester. Of the top 16, it looks like only 2 are decks that were previously fueled by DRS, the two Death's Shadow ones, three if you include Dark Depths.

1. Big Eldrazi
2. U/W Stoneblade
3. RUG Delver
4. Goblins
5. Dark Depths
6. UWR Stoneblade
7. B/R Reanimator
8. Grixis Death's Shadow
9 . UWR Delver
10. Miracles
11. Death & Taxes
12. Sneak & Show
13. Death & Taxes
14. Infect
15. Grixis Death's Shadow
16. U/W Stoneblade

There was also a Team Open with 270 teams, and the Top 26 had two Grixis Delver decks, one Grixis Control deck, and one BUG Control deck, but because it's a Team Open, we don't know exactly how well the Legacy decks did.

999 Pages. Wow. I wonder how many hours that translates to. We're talking human genome project hours here. You've unraveled the mysteries of the universe. Congratulations to everyone on a job well done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

birds of paradise, 2018/07/06 "they allow to find any of seven color pairs"
seven? SEVEN? when were three of the fetches already banned? which ones are those?

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Each fetch land can obtain any one of seven color pairs. That's what I said. I'll explain the math to you if you still don't understand it.

It is amusing to me that just after we had 2 cards with a major meta share people in here have already picked their next victim in an endless witchhunt of further and further bans...

It seems that is has become a hobby as a debate club especially for people who have 0 investment into the game/format like Lemnear. (correct me if I am wrong but you are not actually playing the format are you? Do you even own any paper cards?

Yes please ban fetchlands so people will be priced so hard out of legacy they will start to play suboptimal decks to finally make the format go full casual. And also please make Blood Moon/Wasteland great and unavoidable again (if you play more than 2 colors) so we can have more non-games. I really hate when both sides get to play magic and the game is not decided by what is in each others opening hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise

Each fetch land can obtain any one of seven color pairs. That's what I said. I'll explain the math to you if you still don't understand it.

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I understand the math (I don't find appropriate to write here what my university studies were), maybe I didn't understand so well your english. I'm sorry for that, beg your pardon (but I'm a troll after all, and it was fun for me writing that :tongue:)

Still, I understand even less what the meaning should ever be... do you consider seven a magic number? :smile:
Is it again some kind of "TOO" much?
Have you ever seen a "real" legacy decklists with duals of ALL color pairs that could be theorethically found by all its fetchlands? come on, yours it's still a sentence that has no "game" meaning apart for the obvious mathematical tautology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott

A 140-player SCG classic just finished in Worcester. Of the top 16, it looks like only 2 are decks that were previously fueled by DRS, the two Death's Shadow ones, three if you include Dark Depths.

1. Big Eldrazi
2. U/W Stoneblade
3. RUG Delver
4. Goblins
5. Dark Depths
6. UWR Stoneblade
7. B/R Reanimator
8. Grixis Death's Shadow
9 . UWR Delver
10. Miracles
11. Death & Taxes
12. Sneak & Show
13. Death & Taxes
14. Infect
15. Grixis Death's Shadow
16. U/W Stoneblade

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Looks like a pretty good top 16. Lots of nonblue lists, diversity among the cantrip piles, only two decks with Drizzleshit in them, and two people cashing in a Legacy event running shocklands in a Daze deck.

Maybe DRS was a good ban, or maybe the format with shit the bed in a few months time. Looks fun enough now.

I didn't say seven was a magic number. I said that fetch lands and dual lands together were arguably a game design mistake since every other fixing cycle involves trade-offs and fetch lands together with dual lands require practically no trade-offs. Calling something a design mistake is not the same as saying it should be banned. Ban lists should always be minimal, so every ban needs a strong motivation, and banning 10 cards would need a huge motivation. What I said was that it would be interesting to see the results of Legacy-minus-fetch-land tournaments. I love mana bases like the one below (I'm quoting apple713 from higher up in the thread).

Creatures (24)
4*Birds of Paradise
1*Cloudchaser Eagle
1*Man-o'-War
2*Nekrataal
1*Orcish Settlers
2*Spike Feeder
1*Spike Weaver
1*Spirit of the Night
1*Thrull Surgeon
1*Tradewind Rider
2*Uktabi Orangutan
1*Verdant Force
4*Wall of Blossoms
2*Wall of Roots

Sorceries (4)
2*Firestorm
2*Lobotomy

Enchantments (8)
4*Recurring Nightmare
4*Survival of the Fittest

Artifacts (2)
2*Scroll Rack

Lands (22)
3*City of Brass
8*Forest
1*Gemstone Mine
2*Karplusan Forest
2*Reflecting Pool
1*Swamp
2*Underground River
2*Undiscovered Paradise
1*Volrath's Stronghold

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

It is amusing to me that just after we had 2 cards with a major meta share people in here have already picked their next victim in an endless witchhunt of further and further bans...

It seems that is has become a hobby as a debate club especially for people who have 0 investment into the game/format like Lemnear. (correct me if I am wrong but you are not actually playing the format are you? Do you even own any paper cards?

Yes please ban fetchlands so people will be priced so hard out of legacy they will start to play suboptimal decks to finally make the format go full casual. And also please make Blood Moon/Wasteland great and unavoidable again (if you play more than 2 colors) so we can have more non-games. I really hate when both sides get to play magic and the game is not decided by what is in each others opening hands.

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The discussion arose from multiple concepts, but to misconstrue it as a witch hunt, going after whatever needs to be banned next, is disingenuous. The entire point of this thread is speculation, if you aren't willing to discuss hypotheticals then why are you even in this thread? One of the merits of removing fetchlands (which has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread) would be potentially allowing previously banned cards (like top or drs) to be unbanned, so it wouldn't be simply just continuously adding cards to the ban list like some witch hunt as you claim.

The rest of your post is just baseless fearmongering. None of those examples are a given. The entire point of blood moon and wasteland are to punish greedy mana bases, as in there is a risk that is associated with running more colors, which I think everyone agrees should be a thing. It is only blue that is spoiled with the consistency required to run the greediest mana bases well. These cards are essentially useless against a wide swath of decks that don't run greedy mana bases. Its like every other non blue color based archetype that doesnt have access to cantrips and already has to work with 2 colors or less suddenly doesn't exist, or is not relevant to this discussion. It just goes to show how skewed the perception of what Legacy as a format has become from the past decade of increasing cantrip shell dominance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phonics

The discussion arose from multiple concepts, but to misconstrue it as a witch hunt, going after whatever needs to be banned next, is disingenuous. The entire point of this thread is speculation

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The entire point of this thread is trolling, complaining about brainstorm, cantrips in general, blue in general, and more recently about fetchlands but just as a disguised witch hunt against current tier decks (as somebody was so ingenuous to candidly admit).
Also, the point of this thread is to never reply on the merit of the questions.
I just made a not-so-quick recap of the last 10 pages of nothingness, pointing out how not a single against-fetches "argument" remains standing once scrutinized except "shuffling in real wastes time"... you can talk of "multiple concepts" only as long as you use obscure references, because once you ask for details, all that remains is foolishness and/or brainstorm hate (which in my opinion is exactly the same)

Also if you like speculations so much, that's precisely what morphBerlin made: he told what would happen according to him if fetchlands were ever to be banned. I fully agree with him and I also think that's precisely another one of the "secret" goals that someone is afraid to admit (but it's implicit in the objective "I want tiers1 to become tiers2"): for Legacy to become a more casual format.
That's why I said before "go play commander" (sorry, I didn't meant to stimulate trolls to go trolling there), if you prefer I'd encourage you to play pre-modern, brainstorm is banned there and you can enjoy the 2005 feel.
Also there aren't ABU duals in that format, so you can enjoy the manabases you seem to like so much.

Why are people still replying ti this dude? Also, free nedlees, at least he was funny and could argument beside Just calling people names

Told someone who doesn't just hate brainstorm

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Can't wait until we ban everything but brainstorm to address the blue cantrip shell power level.

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and is always right

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Oh, what i surprise, what i said would happen actually happened!
Banning top did just kill miracle

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Let me have a look again at what the current decks to beat list is. I think I see UW miracle there.

Aaron Forsythe really did hurt you haters bad.

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Originally Posted by phonics

The discussion arose from multiple concepts, but to misconstrue it as a witch hunt, going after whatever needs to be banned next, is disingenuous. The entire point of this thread is speculation, if you aren't willing to discuss hypotheticals then why are you even in this thread? One of the merits of removing fetchlands (which has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread) would be potentially allowing previously banned cards (like top or drs) to be unbanned, so it wouldn't be simply just continuously adding cards to the ban list like some witch hunt as you claim.

The rest of your post is just baseless fearmongering. None of those examples are a given. The entire point of blood moon and wasteland are to punish greedy mana bases, as in there is a risk that is associated with running more colors, which I think everyone agrees should be a thing. It is only blue that is spoiled with the consistency required to run the greediest mana bases well. These cards are essentially useless against a wide swath of decks that don't run greedy mana bases. Its like every other non blue color based archetype that doesnt have access to cantrips and already has to work with 2 colors or less suddenly doesn't exist, or is not relevant to this discussion. It just goes to show how skewed the perception of what Legacy as a format has become from the past decade of increasing cantrip shell dominance.

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So the entire point of the threat is speculation but what I do is baseless fearmongering? Interesting...

Define greedy for me please, everything above 2 colors is greedy? I really lack the definition used here which seems to differ what I call greedy. Czech Pile with 20 lands 2 Basics was greedy, Pile with 20 Lands 2 of which are wastelands was super greedy, 4c with Grooves for PFrie was greedy. That's my definition. Those were only possible because of DRS holding everything together though, so I am interested which decks run these "greedy" mana bases everyone is taling about now.

This is funny honestly, i Imagine this raging dude writing wots and searching old post histories and i can't help but laugh at the Image. Guess he should have his fun as well

Unban Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mind Twist.

Also, prisoner exchange please.

-1 SDT +1 Counterbalance

#freenedleeds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJJsm5PB6HM

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Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22

Unban Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mind Twist.

Also, prisoner exchange please.

-1 SDT +1 Counterbalance

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If I may nitpick this one:

I would swap Sensei's Top for Terminus

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Originally Posted by hiski

If I may nitpick this one:

I would swap Sensei's Top for Terminus

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The reason I say CB is because it was the reason people spun top so often which goes with their "reasoning" for the ban in the first place. "Takes too much time to spin top in response to every spell"

This would not be a thing if counterbalance was not legal.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Have there been many large paper events since the bans? Interested in seeing if DRS fueled archetypes are still good enough without

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Originally Posted by Scott

A 140-player SCG classic just finished in Worcester. Of the top 16, it looks like only 2 are decks that were previously fueled by DRS, the two Death's Shadow ones, three if you include Dark Depths.

1. Big Eldrazi
2. U/W Stoneblade
3. RUG Delver
4. Goblins
5. Dark Depths
6. UWR Stoneblade
7. B/R Reanimator
8. Grixis Death's Shadow
9 . UWR Delver
10. Miracles
11. Death & Taxes
12. Sneak & Show
13. Death & Taxes
14. Infect
15. Grixis Death's Shadow
16. U/W Stoneblade

There was also a Team Open with 270 teams, and the Top 26 had two Grixis Delver decks, one Grixis Control deck, and one BUG Control deck, but because it's a Team Open, we don't know exactly how well the Legacy decks did.

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It sounds like there was also a 110-player invitational in China. If the info is correct, the top 8 had Miracles X2, BUG Delver, Deadguy Ale/BW D&T, Steel Stompy, UWR Stoneblade, Turbo Depths, and Dragon Stompy.

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Originally Posted by Scott

It sounds like there was also a 110-player invitational in China. If the info is correct, the top 8 had Miracles X2, BUG Delver, Deadguy Ale/BW D&T, Steel Stompy, UWR Stoneblade, Turbo Depths, and Dragon Stompy.

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So countermagic, Counterbalance, taxing counters, taxes with death, artifact-based hard counters, artifact-based taxing counters, and fast combo. Metagame's uglier than the prospect of kissing a belt-sander.

Probe did nothing wrong.

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Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise

I didn't say seven was a magic number. I said that fetch lands and dual lands together were arguably a game design mistake since every other fixing cycle involves trade-offs and fetch lands together with dual lands require practically no trade-offs. Calling something a design mistake is not the same as saying it should be banned. Ban lists should always be minimal, so every ban needs a strong motivation, and banning 10 cards would need a huge motivation. What I said was that it would be interesting to see the results of Legacy-minus-fetch-land tournaments. I love mana bases like the one below (I'm quoting apple713 from higher up in the thread).

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Banning the 10 Fetches would probably allow the unban of:

Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Sensei's Divining Top
Deathrite Shaman (wouldnt be banned in the first place)



while also balancing some of the untouched broken cards like everybodys darling brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Banning the 10 Fetches would probably allow the unban of:

Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Sensei's Divining Top
Deathrite Shaman (wouldnt be banned in the first place)



while also balancing some of the untouched broken cards like everybodys darling brainstorm.

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Considering Probe also gone at same time as Fetches in your scenario, the assessment seems fine, except for Treasure Cruise (and omission of CB prisoner exchange for SDT). That one helped exactly one deck, and they can still delve-mana ramp with Fireblast, Bedlam Reveler, and probably also have to consider implications of Faithless Looting. It's fine to give it another trial run to see, but unlike DTT the purpose generally skews towards proactive linearity rather than punishing decks for running discard without also trying to win in a coordinated, quick fashion.
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There seems to be a lot of focus on banning 10 whole cards, but this is like the Moxen: one single concept.

Edit: @Scott looking at the top16 and top8 results you posted, without looking at any decklist we can easily infer that 18/24 (probably 19 if Gobbos was splashing any other color) Fetchland users, 3/24 sol land/Chalice, and 3/24 Cavern/Vial (Gobbos might be in Fetchland category).

This isn't anything new of course, it's just not really diversity. Different color combos doing different things is great and all, but more diversity is possible when you have more starting points [i.e. manabase styles] than the Fetchland engine versus the only mana producing lands strategies that can compete with that engine.

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Originally Posted by talpa

The entire point of this thread is trolling, complaining about brainstorm, cantrips in general, blue in general, and more recently about fetchlands

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No, pretty sure the point of this thread at this point is to provide a Dumpster for certain posters to live in so they don't clutter up virtually every other constructive discussion on this site with their unfounded idiocy and personal vendettas (show me on the doll where the Brainstorm touched you!) Virtually every one of the 1000 pages here contains at least one post that is a direct attack on another individual completely outside of the realm of gaming discussion, assuming one of the many mod purges hasn't wiped it.

Back when there was constructive discussion and speculation, it was an interesting place, but now it's just MTG-flavored bum fights. If there was a requirement that you had a sanctioned game in an event with more than 8 people in the last year to keep posting to the site, half of this thread would be dead.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

No, pretty sure the point of this thread at this point is to provide a Dumpster for certain posters to live in so they don't clutter up virtually every other constructive discussion on this site with their unfounded idiocy and personal vendettas (show me on the doll where the Brainstorm touched you!) Virtually every one of the 1000 pages here contains at least one post that is a direct attack on another individual completely outside of the realm of gaming discussion, assuming one of the many mod purges hasn't wiped it.

Back when there was constructive discussion and speculation, it was an interesting place, but now it's just MTG-flavored bum fights. If there was a requirement that you had a sanctioned game in an event with more than 8 people in the last year to keep posting to the site, half of this thread would be dead.

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If you're going to troll those of us discussing a fetchland ban/change to the format, at least do it with style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxgWHzMvXOY