Printable View
Congrats on your finish, Pulp_Fiction. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has stuck with the LED/IT build after M10. How was the 4x Mystical Tutor? After M10 the first thing I did was bump that down to 2. MT just doesn't seem nearly as good when you can't do the upkeep LED trick.
Thanks man, I was loving the 4x Mystical Tutors all day. Only sided 1x out against Doomsday since that matchups is heavily reliant on speed. It is annoying when opeing a hand of LED, LED, land, MT but hoestly this hand is a turn 2 win anyway, just IGG loop into it. But there are those hands where you don't have enough rituals to sustain IGG loop where Mox, land, LED, MT will win on turn 2 .. but still, very nice to have. Since we now play 7-8 Chant effects I truly see no reason to not run ITs and LEDs, especially since they give you so many free wins out of nowhere and after doing a little math, you know if it is a guarnteed win as opposed to AdN which can and will fail on occassion.
@mercc: I wasn't sure about the 2/2 split but now I am. Speed is not totally relevant in this deck, consistency is, and my goal is not to cast AdN, but I love having the option there as it only takes up 3x slots: 2x Mox and 1 AdN so why not run it! I tried to make a deck that functions like IGGY Pop (since I can IGG in peace now that I have 7x Chants) but still has the option of going for AdN, which is why there is only 1x in the main. An Additional AdN is in the SB for the really easy aggro decks like Elves, the combo mirror when it is all about speed, and against decks like Eva Green that pack sick amounts of hand destruction. Top is better while comboing off with AdN when you can only make 1 U mana but a ton of black so you can MT into what you need, play Top and activate, but also it is infinitely better in the blue and combo matchups since they are all about the setup. I have been wanting Ponder #3 but I still feel that 4x Cabal Ritual is correct so for now I'm going to leave that alone. The deck only left me stranded with nothing one game out of all 5x rounds that I played.
About a month ago I took ANT into a 35 man tournament.
And won overall with a 9-0-0 record, this was my list:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Duress
4x Orim's Chant
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical Tutor
SB:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Hurkyll's Recall
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
1x Volcanic Island
1x Wipe Away
This was before the M10 ruleschange, I am sure I would have lost against a rock player, because his discard spells where dead against my 1st turn led, island chrome mox, with mystical in hand. With this rules changes this hand is much less powerfull as it was, so I am thinking of cutting 1 Mystical tutor.
I am also thinking of bringing Empty the Warrens back mainboard, it steals so many games against your worste matchups.
Are you serious? A Type 2 deck beating some of the top Legacy decks? I find this hard to believe. Could you get the list for this thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I have a hard time believing anything in Type 2 has the power level to compete with Legacy decks. Extended stuff, yes, but not Type 2 at the moment.
I'll put money on type 2 kithkin vs threshold or merfolk. The deck actually is that good. As long as you avoid storm combo and put Relics/TCrypts in the sb, you can probably be in the X-2 realm at most legacy events.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Nah, I've played loads of Type 2, and Kithkin will just fold to the efficient sweepers in the T1.5 format, not to mention Moat.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Without AEther Vial, Type 2 aggro cannot compete against Legacy control decks. And even with Vial, the creatures in T2 right now are just subpar compared to the options available to the Legacy cardpool, especially now since Future Sight rotated out, and Lorwyn is also rotating out soon.
Efficient board sweepers are (1) not nearly as universal as in t2 and (2) not played in nearly the quantities of standard control decks. Compare standard 5cc with Firespout, Hallowed Burial, and sb Volcanic Fallout to Dreadstill's 3 Firespout or Pyroclasm (somewhere in the 75, usually SB), Threshold's 0 sweepers, 4c/Vorosh Landstill and ITF's 3-4 Pernicious Deed, or Merfolk's 0 sweepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Board sweepers are pipe dream in this format. Kithkin is nearly immune to mana-base disruption, plays more and bigger creatures than the rest of the format, and is really difficult to hate out with Counterbalance. Unmodified, it presents a serious threat to any Threshold, Chalice-aggro (Dragon Stompy or Faerie Stompy), Landstill, Merfolk, or G/B/x Aggro deck with very good solutions to Goblins and certain Zoo builds (Burrenton Forge Tender anyone?). Sure, Humility/Wrath/Moat exist from UWx Landstill, but welcome to the life of an aggro deck in Legacy. Combo exists and probably isn't going to get very good short of a dedicated sideboard, but with some minor work, Dredge is winnable and you have one hell of a metagame deck if you can dodge storm.
With light modification including Jitte (and probably Aether Vial, possibly Mana Tithe or splashes into Daze, KGrip, or Price of Progress/Pyropillar), Kithkin could easily top8 any 6-8 round legacy event. Without modification, it stands a good chance if it only plays against the tier 1-1.5 decks.
All it takes is for Kithkin to run into a Landstill deck, or any control deck like MUC or Ultimate Walkers running: Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Nevinryyl's Disk, etc. Also, that Mono White deck Quinn would eat Kithkin alive. And Rock runs deed, obviouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by emidln
So that leaves you with Aggro. Yes, aggro decks like Merfolk, Goblins, and Thresh don't run sweepers, but I know Kithkin would be easily outclassed by the speed and card advantage of Goblins, and the speed (due to Vial) of Merfolk, and the disruption run by Thresh.
Again, any of the control decks in this format completely own unmodified T2 Kithkin. There is no Vial to worry about, and practicaly zero disruption to worry about, and like most tribal decks, Kithkin depends on its lords being in play to do any real damage, so StP just owns them.Quote:
Board sweepers are pipe dream in this format. Kithkin is nearly immune to mana-base disruption, plays more and bigger creatures than the rest of the format, and is really difficult to hate out with Counterbalance. Unmodified, it presents a serious threat to any Threshold, Chalice-aggro (Dragon Stompy or Faerie Stompy), Landstill, Merfolk, or G/B/x Aggro deck with very good solutions to Goblins and certain Zoo builds (Burrenton Forge Tender anyone?). Sure, Humility/Wrath/Moat exist from UWx Landstill, but welcome to the life of an aggro deck in Legacy. Combo exists and probably isn't going to get very good short of a dedicated sideboard, but with some minor work, Dredge is winnable and you have one hell of a metagame deck if you can dodge storm.
The big threats are just too slow and expensive. You have your typical cheap tribal synergies, then you have big expensive bombs like Cloudgoat Ranger, which are completely unplayable in Legacy, and don't provide nearly enough of a punch for their cost.Quote:
With light modification including Jitte (and probably Aether Vial, possibly Mana Tithe or splashes into Daze, KGrip, or Price of Progress/Pyropillar), Kithkin could easily top8 any 6-8 round legacy event. Without modification, it stands a good chance if it only plays against the tier 1-1.5 decks.
And if you outfit Kithkin with Vial & Jitte, you have to ask yourself, am I not better off just playing some of the various other Vial decks that litter the format?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Powder Keg is laughable. So you wipe up the three spirit tokens and get pounded by the rest of the varied curve? MUC's biggest weapon (B2B with its strong manabase) is irrelevant to a deck packing 18-21 basic Plains. EE is stronger against Kithkin than Powder Keg, but isn't a problem unless it's being recurred. The curve of the deck, much like the curve of Goblins, helps it avoid CMC-dependent hate like EE and CB. Rock has 4 Deed and spot removal? How is this any harder than Firespout (which still kills everything) + spot removal with cascade?
In actual testing, Merfolk and CB Thresh were complete byes. Vial didn't seem to make any difference at all because Merfolk's creatures were miles worse and fewer. Kithkin can produce card advantage of its own with Cloudgoat Ranger, Spectral Procession, and Ranger of Eos (for pro red dudes that nonetheless).Quote:
So that leaves you with Aggro. Yes, aggro decks like Merfolk, Goblins, and Thresh don't run sweepers, but I know Kithkin would be easily outclassed by the speed and card advantage of Goblins, and the speed (due to Vial) of Merfolk, and the disruption run by Thresh.
Kithkin plays 4 lords with them being the 2nd worst cards in the deck (behind the Isamaru kithkin). The pump comes from Honor the Pure and Ajani, things that aren't affected by creature removal.Quote:
Again, any of the control decks in this format completely own unmodified T2 Kithkin. There is no Vial to worry about, and practicaly zero disruption to worry about, and like most tribal decks, Kithkin depends on its lords being in play to do any real damage, so StP just owns them.
I don't know what tribal synergies you think Kithkin has, but from playing the deck in Standard, the deck appears to be composed of brutally efficient creatures or spells producing creatures, lands, path to exile, and pump effects (11 on average with only 4 of them being lords). Their best threat isn't even a Kithkin, just a cmc 6 spell that produces 3 fliers that happen to be white. Expensive bombs are fine with a solid manabase. They're difficult to counter (especially given the threat-heavy remainder of the deck assuring that the hard counters are gone) and provide, (Cloudgoat Ranger) on average, between 10 and 14 power on 4 different bodies. I'd call that a bargain at 5 mana. Being expensive isn't as big of a drawback as you might think when your deck is filled with an appropriate curve and a healthy count of basics with which to cast them. It means situational counters (CB, Spell Snare) are going to be worse and only becomes a problem against something with the ability to destroy basic lands (ala Eva Green or Geddon Stax).Quote:
The big threats are just too slow and expensive. You have your typical cheap tribal synergies, then you have big expensive bombs like Cloudgoat Ranger, which are completely unplayable in Legacy, and don't provide nearly enough of a punch for their cost.
If you'd like to play some games (perhaps in another thread), I'm quite confident that I can prove standard kithkin to be a very viable deck against a large portion of the legacy metagame.
I will give you that Kithkin is a decent aggro deck with the addition of Path to Exile, but I'm fairliy confident that if I played you, or anyone piloting an unmodified T2 Kithkin list with any one of:
Ad Nauseam Tendrils
Goblins
Landstill
Quinn
Merfolk
Countertop
Enchantress
I would lose very few games.
In fact, I can *guarantee* that I would never lose more than 1/10 (making allowances for random mana screw and Kithkin god hands) games to Kithkin if I was running:
Enchantress (Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement, gg)
Quinn (Wrath of God, tons of removal, Halos, gg)
Landstill (Wrath of God, Nevinyrral's Disk, Explosives, all recurring, gg)
Ad Nauseam Tendrils (combo out before Kithkin can ever goldfish, gg)
But yeah, I've played Kithkin and played against it in T2, and it is not a BAD aggro deck by even Legacy standards, sure. It's just not as good as the aggro Legacy already has, imho.
And the quote I originally responded to wasn't even talking about Kithkin (which is probably the strongest aggro deck T2 has seen for a while)... it was talking about some R/G jank. I want to know how the hell THAT, probably loaded with nonbasics, ever got into the top8.
Also, here's a play-by-play for what would happen in the Countertop vs. Kithkin matchup:
They have a bunch of dudes on the low end of the curve, just like any self-respecting aggro deck: Wizened Cenn, Figure of Destiny, Goldmeadow Stalwart, and Knight of Meadowgrain. These guys will typically either get denied by the Countertop lock or they will be Plowed/Bolted on a 1:1 basis. And the guys that do stick will meet Goyf & Co and become quickly outclassed.
The bombs which they run that are outside of the typical low mana curve: Cloudgoat Ranger & Ajani Goldmane, would basically never resolve. A good Countertop player would reserve their Dazes and Forces specifically for these bombs.
Kithkin can create card advantage by cheating their stuff into play with Windbrisk Heights. Well, because they otherwise run all basics, this leaves them the sole victim of the Countertop player's Wastelands and Stifles.
Spectral Procession would be a pain to deal with, but that's really the ONLY thing I can think of that would even remotely cause a problem. Everything else is just outclassed by better creatures, more card advantage, and better tempo of the typical Legacy deck.
This discussion............. is useless? :)
You're right, because any reasonably intelligent T1.5 player would recognize that an unmodified T2 should get stomped into oblivion by most good Legacy decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mercc
This is not necessary true. Legacy decks are wierd creatures, somtimes it gets stomped by most unexpected cards, as most decks run fairly narrow 'staples' that does little outside Legacy. Take a more 'normal' decks in the format, and you will find it is often badly positioned against more attrition oriented decks, which most of T2 decks are.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Against Kithkin, Wasteland, Stifle, and Spell Snare are all heavily played cards that are only marginaly good. CB lock does nothing to stop their bombs, either. You did list decks that will beat kithkin, and I have no doubt that some of them will beat it. However, that is only beacuse this format is unusually diverse and have so called 'random' decks.
P.S. I love useless discussions. They are the best of the Kind.
It is true that alot of the "tier" decks are geared toward beating common Legacy strategies (cheap spells) and might not be as effective against unexpected Standard mana curves, BUT the fact remains that Legacy plays the most efficient stuff in the game, which would completely outclass the slower crap and worse manabases Standard is forced to run, regardless of little kinks like a few cards escaping CounterTop lock.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
I've played LOADS and LOADS of both competitive Standard (top8ing several mid-large tournaments during Tsp_10th_Lrw block) *and* Legacy (I've been playing it hardcore as much as possible the past year or so), and I feel I am qualified to make this call.
Yes CB top wouldn't stop Spectral Procession, Cloudgoat, or Ajani, but everything else in the deck is susceptible, and you have to remember that a good CounterTop deck also runs other counterspells like FoW and Daze which *would* stop those bombs.Quote:
Against Kithkin, Wasteland, Stifle, and Spell Snare are all heavily played cards that are only marginaly good. CB lock does nothing to stop their bombs, either. You did list decks that will beat kithkin, and I have no doubt that some of them will beat it. However, that is only beacuse this format is unusually diverse and have so called 'random' decks.
Wasteland/Stifle are also great against Kithkin because it stops them from generating card/tempo advantage through Windbrisk Heights, which is one of the biggest threats the deck has.
Here is the thing, I like this discussion and I will post on it because I think its matchups like these that we see why Thresh is strictly a meta deck and sucks in the random matchups. But, this is the ANT thread, could you guys start a thread for Standard decks VS Legacy decks in the Format discussion forums.
On the CB/Top thing, even more than that, UGw Thresh runs StP for Cloudgoat and Spectral Procession, some people also have EE in their boards for game 2 and 3, and even have Meddling Mage if need be. Teeg also stops Procession and Ajani.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
Also, Thresh lists often run at least one Rushing River, some play 2 depending on the meta, or one and a Wipe Away. Anything that gets through can be bounced, and at an opportune time, say after thresh gets a force/Daze/whatever to get it countered.
The Wasteland/Stifle thing is whatever. Hardly on topic with CB as lists that run CB (Thresh) don't run either. Thrash does. I bet Thrash does better against kithkin than Thresh.
I g2g, but I'll edit later.
Pce,
--DC
Last LCL (Liga Catalana Legacy, 70 people average) had 3 Ad Nauseam on top8.
Here are the results:
http://www.lamaquinadeltemps.com/for...d.php?tid=1014
Great, all without LED!
This is a budgetized version of the ANT-style of play. The deck is mono-black; removing it from wasteland/stifle play. It uses a large amount of 0cmc creatures to lower the average; as well as to take advantage of cheap spells such as culling the weak and diabolic intent.
Following the list, I will include explanations of card choices.
DRILLBAIT
1 Phyrexian Tower
10 Swamp
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Songs of the Damned
4 Diabolic Intent
3 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact
Sideboard
2 Powder Keg
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Drain Life
2 Mortify
1 Vindicate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
Card discussion:
Phyrexian Tower: A great 1-of; allowing me to sacrifice creatures to accelerate mana. This card is run instead of a fourth Cabal Ritual because I found it is a much better card pre-AdN although it is susceptible to wasteland-hate.
Swamp: The basic mana-base shuts down stifle/wasteland/back to basics/price of progress/moon effects. This is excellent. Because of the low CMC of the deck (average of 0.87) it is pretty easy to run only 10 swamps and go off on T3 (with protection).
Twelve 0cmc creatures: An essential in this deck. Both early protection from goblin lackey's and other annoying weenies. Required by Tower, Culling the weak, songs of the damned, diabolic intent, cabal therapy flashback.
Lotus Petal: The only way to play vindicate/mortify post-board (essential to shutting down reverent silence/chalice). Also, adds to storm count, provides some mana accel and is the only way for you to start up from AdN if you have no mana left in pool (due to daze or only having 5 onhand).
Dark Ritual: Great mana accel; netting 2.
Cabal Ritual: Excellent post-AdN and lackluster before (net 3 vs. 1).
Culling the Weak: Great synergy with your creatures. Net 3.
Songs of the Damned: Superb post-AdN generator. Works off of 1 and easily nets 4-5 mana. Often dark ritual 5-6 if played before AdN.
Diabolic Intent: Grabs your essentials - AdN, Tendrils, mana accel depending on what you need.
AdN: You need this spell to get off without a hitch. It will win you the game as you generally can safely draw 12 cards.
Tendrils of Agony: Your win-con. I would like an alternate; but with mono-black and running pacts for protection; there are not many choices. Drain life is next best; as I have generated 34 mana post-AdN on turn 3 before (goldfishing).
Cabal Therapy: Works much better post-board as you know their deck and types of hate they will run. Excellent as it can provide card advantage by recurring it with creature sacrifice.
Duress: Early disruption to allow your AdN to go off. Side out for Therapy.
Pact of Negation: Hard counter to stop orim's chant/stifle/other counters when you AdN or Tendrils.
Slaughter Pact: MD answer to mage and early problem cards. This might in fact be a weak MD; during testing I find it is often used only to kill your excess creatures to power songs and improve storm count.
Sideboard:
Powder Keg: A great answer to Chalice of the Void - which can be a real problem for your deck. Also Sensei's Top.
Cabal Therapy: Once you know the opponents deck; these cards apply great synergy and should be sided in for duress.
Slaughter Pact: Meddling Mage.
Drain Life: A "good" alt-win. It requires a lot of mana to kill from 20; which will often be the case; but there are not a lot of other options for mono-black. One suggestion has been Maga, Traitor to Mortals (depending on if you have pact'd; this is often a better choice than drain).
Mortify: Budget vindicate. Deals with mage/runed halo/reverent silence/counterbalance.
Vindicate: Deals with any permanent! But.. I only have one.
Relic: A worse SB option than tormod's crypt since it hurts your songs/therapies. However, shuts down goyf and dredge. Played correctly, this card is fine (after you flash therapies and stack song mana).
Pithing Needle: An answer to a lot of cards in legacy (Sensei's Top, Survival, Factory, jitte, vial, EE, grindstone, planeswalkers). Should be ran post-board depending on the deck you face and replace the slaughter pacts.
So, I have done some testing with this deck vs:
-Mirror
-Merfolk
-Enchantress
-Zoo
Fairly good results. One problem this deck has is that it mulligans poorly since it lacks blue hand fixing/draw. This also means that sometimes it takes a while to get AdN. Depending on how you play your hand you can still go off quite quickly. Turn 3-4 kills are probably most likely when running protection before you go off.
Let me know what you think about this mono-black budget tendrils list. I have thought about putting in some chrome mox; but I think it could only replace a cabal ritual; although it is much better post-AdN as it lets me run AdN with no mana in the pool more often. Let me know your thoughts on adding mox to this deck (I sadly do not have mox diamond; otherwise I think it would have been the stronger choice).
Improvements to mono-black ANT are appreciated! Thanks!
(Also, I have Ill-Gotten Gains; and originally ran this list with it. I am not sure if it fits, so I removed it.)