[DTW] Bant Survival

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I don't think Karakas is terrible, but as a one of with no way to get it, it's just random. At least have a Knight of the Reliquary or something so you have a chance with Survival.

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Knight of the Reliquary is white, so you won't be able to cast it under Iona to get Karakas. I'd rather just hope I lucksack into a free out in an otherwise unwinnable game 1 than spend actual maindeck slots trying to improve it. Like I said, after game 1 the matchup tilts in our favor if we sideboard properly, but even having a chance of winning game 1 through Iona lock, even if it is because of a lucky topdeck/opening hand, is enough to make a huge difference in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I think having a Gilded Drake or Sower is a much better plan. And if they do go for Inkwell or anything else, Llawan can answer it.

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This is currently part of my sideboard plan. Although if I start seeing more Reanimator than Zoo/Lands/Decks packing lots of removal I'll probably swap Gilded Drake into the MD in place of Kira. But as it stands now the meta I play in is infested with removal.

I'm not sure how I feel about the list that got 10th at the SCG open on Sunday:

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sower Of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
4 Survival Of The Fittest

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Grove
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path To Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Are we seeing the results of an underdeveloped metagame or a highly specialized one? There are some really strange decklists all around in the top 16.

The thing that stands out as most odd to me is the inclusion of filterlands instead of more fetches. Could this be simply in order to maximize the amount of green mana available or just inability to acquire fetches?

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Originally Posted by majikal

I'm not sure how I feel about the list that got 10th at the SCG open on Sunday:

The thing that stands out as most odd to me is the inclusion of filterlands instead of more fetches. Could this be simply in order to maximize the amount of green mana available or just inability to acquire fetches?

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The filters help to get Counterbalance online after leading with a basic Forest/Island.

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Originally Posted by menace13

The filters help to get Counterbalance online after leading with a basic Forest/Island.

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Since when does leading with a basic island make it hard to cast Counterbalance next turn?

I feel like the 4 filters might be somewhat of a crutch. Tapping out for Counterbalance is usually a bad idea unless you need to get it down against something like storm combo. The decks that you want it fast against don't attack your mana so that problem shouldn't exist. If you have a top, it's usually better to wait anyway so you can have the combo active once it resolves (so they don't untap and resolve something like a pridemage). Against decks like Canadian Thresh, you'll want the basic forest untapped anyway to play through Daze. I agree more fetches seems better than these lands. 1 or 2 might be justified, but 4 seems just awful.

There's something we need to address.

Bant Survival was a wrecking ball back when the format was CounterTop and anti-CounterTop. Our deck could be built to have a good matchup against CounterTop and to destroy the slower anti-CounterTop decks like Loam and Landstill.

Now, the format is shifting towards faster decks like Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and Reanimator. I think we're under or around 50/50 against all of those decks.

What can be done about this? Bant Survival is still a powerful contender, but I think we need to start finding ways to better deal with these decks if we're going to stay on top.

I think we need to lose some of the cards that are good in our good matchups for some maindeck answers to fast aggro. Cards like Eternal Witness, Vendilion Clique, and Trygon Predator need to be cut, or at least moved to the sideboard. I've been trying Natural Order in the maindeck, and I might start trying Umezawa's Jitte/Stoneforge Mystic too. If we combine something like that with a strong anti-combo sideboard, will it solve our problems in this metagame?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a mistype from SCG as it is most likely to be Flooded Strand. It is not like if it was their first mistake in writting down lists.

On the CB/Top subject: I already win against Combo, Landstill and Land. Why would I want CB top in this deck? My hardest MU is Merfolk and it is what I'm trying to improve. I tried to go with the Firespout in SB and lost 2 games this weekend to merfolks, mostly because I have been manascrewed a lot. I'm going back to UGW. I also switched -1 Witness, +1 Finks now with 2 RWM/2 Finks and I have to say I liked it a lot.

P-M

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Originally Posted by MULocke

Since when does leading with a basic island make it hard to cast Counterbalance next turn?

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Depending on the hand (could be 3 lander; Island, Sav/Forest+filter) also Savannah or tundra filter into uu/ug/gg. Rare? yes, but happens, better than fetches?...no

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Originally Posted by Enigma

I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a mistype from SCG as it is most likely to be Flooded Strand. It is not like if it was their first mistake in writting down lists.

On the CB/Top subject: I already win against Combo, Landstill and Land. Why would I want CB top in this deck? My hardest MU is Merfolk and it is what I'm trying to improve. I tried to go with the Firespout in SB and lost 2 games this weekend to merfolks, mostly because I have been manascrewed a lot. I'm going back to UGW. I also switched -1 Witness, +1 Finks now with 2 RWM/2 Finks and I have to say I liked it a lot.

P-M

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I agree, I didn't consider that possibility of a typo. Flooded Strand is what I think it should be, anyway.

CB/Top is still quite powerful. It might not be the best against Merfolk, but it gives the deck another good threat at the two-drop slot. I wouldn't be too happy about the combo matchup without a lot of hate bears/spell pierces/etc in the board, as they can play through 1 or maybe 2 pieces of hate fairly easily. Also, CB gives the deck another dimension against Zoo. Zoo usually wrecks old GP: Chicago Cb lists, but this list can use it much better; you don't need it to win, but you do win when you get it going. CB is also good in the mirror and against reanimator, giving you more game-breaking spells and an unbeatable lock in those matchups, respectively.

Edit: @menace: In your situation, any blue producing land casts CB regardless of the savannah/plains/forest. If you have an island, a filter does the same thing as a blue land or fetch and the savannah is unnecessary.

It's easier to just not play CB. The deck gets clunky as hell and plays completely different, ie can't play either role (control or aggro) effectively.

Now, on to what Kuma said. I think what you are saying is normal. This deck has no bad matchups like old RGBSA, but it does't completely wreck a lot of things either. If you are seeing a lot of Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, etc, change the deck! Taking out Eternal Witness, 2 Cliques, etc to make room for a couple of Stoneforge and Jittes and maybe a SOFI is a great plan in an aggressive meta. I think I change my list every time I play it, mostly just fiddling and nothing major but sometimes a necessary improvement for what I expect to face.

I think combo is fine. I am definitely keeping 4 Spell Pierce SB and I might start playing with a Canonist or something. I always pack a Llawan since it is awesome versus reanimator and Gilded Drake/Sower/even Man o War to answer Iona. Faerie Macabres too.

Innovation is the only way this deck survives.

Between my main and side, I've pretty much taken care of the problems that Reanimator, Zoo, and ANT give me. However, no matter what I try and what I change about the deck, Merfolk just seems to run me into the ground. The only chance I have is to stick an early Goyf (and hope they don't play any of their own) and find Jitte ASAP, which doesn't happen nearly as often as I'd like. I used to be able to count on some of the other decks taking out Merfolk before Top8, but lately the meta's been shifting back to more blue decks to counteract the surge in Reanimator, and the fish have been breaking into the final rounds.

I think I will cut meddling mage to side and I will put on MD instead of MM +2 jittes + 1 clique ( so 3 cliques ). And I think we have a hard matchup against Dredge.. and merfolk i'ts ok for me, with jittes, swords, iona, path and cephalid sb I don't have so much problems... yeah maybie lord of atlantis owns us but we have swords.. and If we take out vial with trygon or qsali it's ok. With 3 relic on sb its not ok.. i prefer loaming shaman and take 4 or 5 card hate for dredge... coz it's difficult for me to win that matchup

I've been playing 1x Taiga and 3x Firespout in the side. With the amount of fetches we have, you can oftentimes sandbag it to pull out your Taiga right when you need to cast Firespout. I've been pretty happy with it so far.

@Enigma: Just curious - you said you haven't had problems against Lands. Can you give any advice on that matchup? I've had many problems whenever I've played against it.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

@Enigma: Just curious - you said you haven't had problems against Lands. Can you give any advice on that matchup? I've had many problems whenever I've played against it.

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What exactly gives you problems? Between Meddling Mage, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, and Iona, Shield of Emeria you should be able to shut down their antics and just beat them to death with multiple guys. And that's just game one. After that you can bring in the grave hate and just go to town.

Iona+Kira outright wins against Lands. Even Karakas doesn't help here.

I finally got my loyal retainers, can't wait to play this deck.

I came from Pro Bant and I was going to test between volcanic/firespout and dueling grounds. Have you guys tested dueling grounds? It seems most people go the firespout route so I'm guessing that's more successful.

Yesterday, I decided to try adding Counterbalance for my local Legacy tournament. I was dissatisfied with the Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and Reanimator matchups, and CounterTop improves three out of the four. I went 5-1-1, beating three Zoo decks, Legacy Jund (it plays a lot like Zoo), and a Bw homebrew. I lost to Goblins in the playoffs and ID'd with CounterTop with Progenitus. CounterTop was largely responsible for my victory over two of the three Zoo decks, the Jund deck, and the Bw homebrew. All the things people say about CounterTop: It's clunky, it's too mana intensive with Survival, it ruins your ability to go aggro, none of that was true for me last night. I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but it has an A+ so far. I'll keep trying it and see if anything changes.

Here's the list I ran:

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Meddling Mage
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Path to Exile
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Gilded Drake
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg

In hindsight, one of those Jittes should have been a Stoneforge Mystic, and Kira maybe should have been another Faerie Macabre, a Tormod's Crypt, or a Relic of Progenitus. Meddling Mage might not be necessary with CounterTop. I might trade it out for another Qasali Pridemage or something.

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Originally Posted by majikal

What exactly gives you problems? Between Meddling Mage, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, and Iona, Shield of Emeria you should be able to shut down their antics and just beat them to death with multiple guys. And that's just game one. After that you can bring in the grave hate and just go to town.

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I don't run MM in my list, considering it as a 1-of.

Problems I have is when they have Tabernacle plus Wasteland recursion or Ports out locking my mana down/out.

Having them hit multiple Mazes when I have Iona out really sucked too.

Early Wastelands + Ports + maybe Tabernacle is what gives a lot of power to this deck. They however apply close to zero pleasure which gives you a lot of time to set up Iona. Wasteland sucks but you should be running at least 4 basic lands (I run 5 with 19 lands) and Noble Hierarch. Don't wanna lie to you here. If you open 2-3 lands where 2 get wasted and the 3rd is a Plains that does nothing your in a really bad posititon. But that's just worst case scenario. In evalueating the matchup you should also take into consideration Force of Will which will often force 43-Land into topdeck modus.

I've never lost a match to lands by now but one for a totally undeserved game loss I received.

I´ve played BantSur last saturday in a tournament with 24 attendants (5 swiss-rounds) ending in 3rd place. Played against Zoo (2:0), Solidarity (2:1), Enchantress (2:0), Zoo (2:0) and in the final round i badly lost to a LED-less dredge-deck (0:2), not the player! I would have won game1 if I´d have played Wonder over Trygon Predator as I could have raced him in the air and would probably have won game2 if I´d have played at least one Faerie Macabre in my sideboard. Instead I´ve tried Wheel of Sun and Moon which only shined against Solidarity (LOL!), but definately was too slow against dredge, even the LED-less version. My changes in the future will look like -1 Predator, +1 Wonder/Venser Shaper Savant in the maindeck and add more/faster graveyard-hate in the sideboard -1 Wheel, -1 Umezawa´s Jitte (although I´d really like to keep the 2nd one), + 2 Macabre/maybe +1 Ravenous Trap. The Enlightened Tutor has been really solid against Zoo, beeing Survival #5, Jitte #2(-3) and so was Jötun Grunt, but he might become Qasali #3. Did some of you guys ever miss Wonder sometimes, just like I do?

Maindeck:

3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Savannah
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Vendilion Clique

Sideboard:

3 Spell Pierce
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Enlightened Tutor


Greetz, K1LO

@K1LO, I have been using Bant Survival for a few months now (The best Legacy deck I'v used) & Wonder has been great, sometimes even playing it out ( When things have gone realy bad) to get the kill with 2 or 3 Exalted men on the board.