@andrew77
I'll give you credit for running Confidant, Thoughtseize and Snuff Out in such an aggro (read: Zoo) oriented metagame. Ballsy move.
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@andrew77
I'll give you credit for running Confidant, Thoughtseize and Snuff Out in such an aggro (read: Zoo) oriented metagame. Ballsy move.
I was looking over the T8 lists from Madrid and I was looking at the list that Ruben Gonzales placed with. I won't post the list but you can easily find it. What I found interesting is the presence of firespouts, though not in the main as it was suggested several pages back.
After studying the list and referencing back to the list from pages back, I decided I wanted to look at that approach but make sure each card worked well or better together and I came up with this.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Wall of Roots
2 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Natural Order
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Volcanic Island
I like this list because unlike the one that placed, the strength of firespout isn't reduced by killing your own Noble Hierarchs and the difference by adding one Volcanic main was cutting an island from what I was already playing.
I played in real small tournament the week before Richmond and was playing with the island instead of volcanic, and had 2 horrible games against mefolk. I wanted to improve that matchup but really couldn't see putting the firespouts main, so when I saw the Madrid deck, I decided to try this route instead.
By doing this of course the side has:
1 Volcanic Island
3 Firespout
but after tweaking around, I didn't feel I lost much of anything and gained game against a hard match. I have yet to try this out but it should work like Gonzales' deck did but have bigger guys to survive the spouts with.
Curious, has anyone tried building Countertop Progenitus without Goyf? I now have everything necessary to build this, but no goyfs--and I don't see any way of acquiring them any time soon, either. Can the deck function without Goyf--or any of its aggro components in general--and rely entirely on the NO win?
A build i'm brainstorming:
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Mulch
1 Progenitus
3 Natural Order
4 Swords
3 Top
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Force
Also, what's the verdict on Kitchen Finks? From what I've seen in other decks, he's pretty good against aggro...has anyone run him in their list?
I'm quite sure that's not gonna work. I would play rhox war monks over wall of blossoms atleast. There is just a problem that if you don't find natural order soon enought or it gets countered you will lose. Walls just chump dudes, tarmogoyf kills them. Example, if zoo player wants to kill you tarmogoyf by attacking with 3/3 nacatl and then throw burn in tarmo, you could just block and counter that burn what's coming. With wall, you block and if you counter burn, you save your wall and zoo player saves his nacatl. So if you haven't changes to get tarmogoyf (yes they are quite pricy at this moment) i would recommend you to play merfolks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
my main deck is Lands. I happened upon the Natural Orders and built NO stompy, but that deck's way inconsistent and I want to do something else with my Natural Orders, that's why I started working on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
What about Kitchen Finks or Carven Caryatid in the Wall of Blossoms spot? I could dump spell snare (seems like no one runs this in this archetype) for Warmonks.
Ok, that changes things. If i would be you, i would sell your tabernacle (i suppose you own that, if your main deck is Lands) and buy tarmogoyfs ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Yes, you could take snares off and replace them with Qasali Pridemage. It almost always does samething you want spell snare to do. Ofcourse it won't hits creatures, sinkholes etc but you get rid of Aether Vials, Counterbalances, Moat and other troublesome enchaments and artifacts. My point is, that if you can't play Tarmogoyfs, you need more dudes to fill huge hole, what lefting Tarmogoyf out of 75's is leaving. I think i would cut all those walls of and add Qasalis, rhox war monks for them. I would also add one more sensei's divining top, just because we don't run Trinket mages to fetch them and you like to see atleast one in every game.
Question to other users: Do you sb cards just for merfolks? Like Llawan, Cephalid Empress? Sure, that works in mirror too but.. Is that enought still? They got Vial to play around that, so you need to get rid of vials and then try to resolve that. It seems to extra stop effects would be better?
You could be playing Trygon Predators, Werbears and Nimble Mongooses. War Monks are a must.
@Atog: I thought about that, but decided not to run a single card for a single matchup however bad it may be. I instead hoped that Jitte and extra Paths would get me there, as all you need is to remove their lords, then they are playing a bad aggro deck with 2/1 and 1/1-s.
I'd replace Tarmogoyf with Werebear, I ran 1 or 2 to fill slots, feed NO, accelerate NO and get an extra beater out of the deal and never regretted it.
I have 2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress in my sideboard as well as some PTEs. I like Llawan because it can also bounce Progenitus (I don't run NO) as well and PTE is just some good extra removal against any aggro deck.
If u have space, run kitchen finks 2 times main because agains't aggro decks it's an awesome card.
I also run PTE side.
and with the wall.deck idea, run then this card, it owns and it's a win against aggro decks to: Perimeter Captain
U gain life and ur apponent needs 5 creatures to outraise u if he's gobblins/zoo/merfs.
and u gain life from al the walls so.
And just hold your money for goyfs, every deck plays them and on a time u will need them so...
The problem with Perimeter captain is that he's not green, and seeing as how my build relies entirely upon Natural Order to win the game, i have no interest in playing any creatures that can't be used as Natural Order fodder. I think Regenerators might work better than walls. River Boa, troll Ascetic and even Isao have the power necessary to make your opponent hold off.
In fact, river boa seems like a good card to run, even in conjunction with Goyf. Has anyone tried it instead of a Wall in the extra 2cc spot?
How many slots should be dedicated graveyard hate? I'm currently at 5 (2 crypts, 2 rav trap, 1 relic) and would like to go down to 4 but I don't ever wanna lose a match to dredge. I'm playing a supreme blue variant so I have 3 firespouts main and I also have 2 ee and a path in the board.
@lebron jim: I played SupremeBlue with 4 Grave Hates (2Cript + 2 Tormod's) , I really did not like the trap because it did not hit reanimator also I was playing 2 EE as you are so I can bring 4 grave hate + 2 EE + 3 Kgrip (against Needle) to defeat dreadge.
If you can build your manabase around it without sacrificing too much, Leatherback Baloth does a really good Goyf impersonation. Although I wouldn't try it without Noble Hierarch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
4 slots should be fine considering firespout is decent vs them anyway. I'd go 2 crypt, 2 relic though as is sucks when they unmask you and take rav trap. Crypt and relic are also better against decks like reanomator and 43 lands. I'm less and less worried about dredge myself as it is quickly becoming a tier 3 deck. Hell if your running ponders and stp on top of firespout I'd even consider going down to 3 hate slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by lebron jim
just play firespout 3 times and 2 ghostly prison side, it let's u win:
gobblins, make zoo and merfs slower and win against ichorid..
Here's what I played in GP:Madrid to a 45th place finish:
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UG] Island
1 [UG] Forest
4 [B] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
After countless adventures getting to Madrid, even leaving a teammate behind us in the airport waiting for the next flight, we got there.
A mini-report follows.
R1 Bant Survival 2-1. Counterbalance is good here. Elspeth is better.
R2 Merfolk 2-1. Paths to Plowshares and fast fat Goyfs eat sushi.
R3 Zoo 2-0. Balance makes him not be able to play spells. War Monks make him not able to kill me. Paths to Plowshares make him not have any creatures.
R4 Countertop Pro. 2-1. Resolve Counterbalance G1 and win. Not counter Natural Order G2 and lose. Counter Natural Order G3 and win.
R5 Dutch guy Wander. Plays ANT. Scoops to Balance G1. G2 War Monk pulls me up to 28 so he can't kill me with Tendrils for 20. Ill-Gotten Gains aren't that good when I return my Force of Will. 2-0
R6 Merfolk. Random Counterbalance flips G1 are good. Resolving a Goyf and a Jitte G2 is even better. 2-0
R7 Supreme Blue. I have Elspeth and Jace. He has Firespouts. Guess which cards are supreme here. 2-0.
R8 Dutch guy Bart. Plays GBW Rock. I get Thoughtseized, Pulsed, Vindicated and Deed'ed into having nothing and him having a Nantuko Monastery. 0-2.
R9 Japanese pro Tomoharu Saito. Plays ANT. I make a techy play here where I have CB + top, brainstorm, a bunch of cards and 1 mana untapped. He thoughtseizes me, I brainstorm, draw a Force of Will and leave it on top. He takes my Daze, casts a Petal and a LED, and spins Top to play Ad Nauseam. I flip Force. G2 Balance owns him again.
8-1, 24 points.
R10 Belcher. Again, CB is good here. He thinks for forever how to go past my defences and we draw. 1-1-1.
R11. Bloodghast Dredge. Knowing I should well lose, I keep a crappy hand of 4 lands, FoW, Brainstorm and Pridemage and consider conceding after a few turns. Counter his Putrid Imp. Start racing vs his 2 Bloodghasts. Play War Monk. Win the race. G2 Getting my 2 Goyfs, Noble and Meddling Mage Firestormed away was not fun. Draw a couple of War Monks. He still has the worst dredge I've ever seen. He goes for a 9/9 Grave Troll. I topdeck StP.2-0
R12 German dude Bernhard, Ur Dreadstill. Meh, CB mirrors are boring. Grip his Dreadnought and have a 7/8 Tarmogoyf ftw. 2-1
R13 Andreas Muller, Reanimator. Mull to 4. Don't get lucky with CB to counter his Exhume. G2 I can race his Inkwell with my Exalted War Monk, but he drops an Archangel. 0-2.
R14 Bill, 4c Painter. 6 MD Pyroblasts/REBs are not a good matchup for this deck. Not a fan of Mother of Runes either. 0-2.
R15 Bant Survival. Same as R1. Drop and protect Elspeth. 2-0
R16 Portuguese pro Marcio Carvalho, Zoo. The key points to this matchup are: get lucky with CB and draw many Paths to Plowshares. I do both. 2-0
R17 RGW Aggro Loam. Cool match. He Seismic Assaults on G3 me for 14 damage and out of the top16 and PT invite.
12-1-4, 37 points, 45th place.
After this tournament, I haven't been hugely impressed with Jace, although it was good, just didn't draw her often enough. However Elspeth proved to be crucial in a lot of matches, so I'm thinking of somehow sliding her into the deck.
According to Wizard's website, Saito's record day 1 was 7-0-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhanTom_lt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Yes, that's him on 21 points. In R9 two 7-1 players, him and me, played against each other, that's normal, afaik.
yes.