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deed usually seals the deal for me against affinity (playing 2 main + 2 side) but if some extra hate for affinity is requestet, i would definitely go with kataki over serenity, he just wrecks the whole deck and that for the rest of the game (which should not take long after he hits play)
I played last week in small 4-round local legacy tournament going 3-1 and ending 3rd. Below is the list, rather standard one. 61 card is a result of adding bojuka in the last few minutes. The split 2/2 Deed and Explosives was just amazing.
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
Sideboard
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
2 Go for the Throat
2 Engineered Explosives
Round 1 - Bant (with vials and Managra/Karakas)
In game one 3rd turn vindicate destroys vial on 1 counters then hymn takes out goyf and KoTR. Triple Mangara hits my creatures fortunatelly I have wasteland to kill karakas. Sensei provides enough fuel to rush the opponent which plays only hierarchs. Time left to the end of round - 10 minutes.
In second game from both sides creatures are killed and with clear board on my side (only STD) and 2 noble hierarchs on OPP side time ended.
Side : In 2x GftT - Out 1 Vindicate 1 Verdict
1-0 (1-0)
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Round 2 - Dredge
In game one I played turn 1 confidant and turn 2 KoTR but he killed me at his second turn so I even couldn't search for bojuka with KoTR.
In second game I played again turn 1 confidant then add deed and tripple KoTR and rushed opponent over.
Game three was long war. Opp with 1 land that was destroyed with wasteland was only drawing. My confidant was joined by goyf and supported with deed. However after drawing land opponent started to run his combo and reanimated troll and create a bunch of zombies. KoTR joined the party. Having 2 mox diamond in play I topdecked engineered explosives and casted it with 5 counters to kill troll. Then sacrificed deed for 2 and kill opponent in last turn of 5 after round time ended with huge KoTR.
Side : In 2x Explosives, 4 Plagues - Out 4x Hymn 1x Verdict 1x Vindicate
2-0 (3-1)
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Round 3 - The Gate
First game was totally one sided. Discard supported by Abyssal Persecutor and 2 Hyppies was enough to fly me to death.
Game 2 with initial discard war and innocent bloods from my opponent side I stabilized situation with Confidant and Goyf getting Sensei that allowed to draw everything I wanted to protect Goyf that was later joined by KoTR and fellows made the game.
Game 3 I started with 1st turn Hymn taking all 2 swamps from opponent hand. He topdeck one from the top but I added KoTR (no innocent blood) and start to rush adding. Confidant was eaten with Gatekeeper of Malakir and goyf was eaten by hippie and spinning darkness. Being at 6 life opponent cast Vampire Nighthawk and added Volraths stronghold what meant that I have to kill him as soon as possible (I had to draw any removal). Fortunatelly I had sensei. At the end of opponent turn looked and 3 top cards and nothing. Used KoTR to shuffle and fetch for Fetchland. Looked at top 3 nothing. Sacrificed fetch looked at 3 top and found GftT. Killed nighthawk and swung for the win.
Side : In 2x GftT - Out 1x Verdict 1x Bojuka
3-0 (5-2)
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Round 4 - Elves
Game 1 I played confidant on turn 1 and KoTR on turn 2. Opponent comboed at his 2nd turn.
Game 2 I was screwed and got turn 3 NO/progenitus (it was a sideboard tech that I did'nt expected) = GG.
Side : In 4x Plague - Out 4x Vindicate
3-1 (5-4)
Finished 3rd. I really enjoy playing the deck and it was first tournament that I played with rock that was fully mine after few months of collecting cards.
I'd replace Perimeter Captain with more spot removal to be honest. Path to Exile, Go for the Throat, Ghastly Demise, etc. And yes, Kataki is a much better SB card versus Affinty, but I personally run the E Tutor sideboard plan, so I run a singleton Serenity in place of Kataki.
And now for the tournament report.
The Rock:
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Maze
1 Karakas
3 Top
4 Swords
2 Deed
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
2 Stoneforge
4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 Confidant
Board:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tariff
I woke up early to get my taxes done, then sped off to the event site, leaving a little early to give myself enough time to resleeve and lend/get the cards I need to get to play. 1/2 way to the event sit, I get a call from my friend saying he can't attend, so I have to turn around and drive 20 minutes out of the way to pick up the cards at his house. After that, I have to take the long way to the even site, running into traffic, construction, wrong turns, and rallying down deserted farm roads. I get to the site five minutes before registration ends, loan out some cards, get some cards, resleeve, and shuffle. Pairings go up, and I am disappointed.
Round 1: Dave with Team America
I had just stayed up the night before testing with Dave, since he was new to the deck. I wasn't keen on playing him, since I knew the ins and outs of his playstyle, and where his weakness really showed in his deck design against the Rock.
In Game 1, it's a battle of attrition as he Stifles and Wastelands me, but I recover by getting basics. He lays an early (T4) Tombstalker, but I've got the removal. We go back and forth, and I wasteland him out of blue. He stalls for a bit and I manage to land Top. I drown him in card selection and proceed to win after a hard-fought 30-minute game. I didn't see a Jace, but I knew it was somewhere.
Board in: Enlightened Tutors, Crypt, Spellbomb, Revoker
Board out: Random stuff.
In Game 2, he counters my first turn Top, then proceeds to Hymn me, taking a Swords and Dark Confidant. I play a T2 Goyf at 3/4, but he lands EE and blows it. I hold back a Jitte and Stoneforge until after EE, but he Hymns them away. He lands a Tombstalker, but I rip Swords for it. We go back and forth and I build up my mana. He builds up to 6 mana and casts another Tombstalker, and I Vindicate. He Wastelands me a full four times here, and I'm getting pissed. I draw into Goyf, which is now a 5/6, and start on the beatdown. I drop Knight at an 8/8 for good measure, but he plays Consuming Vapours. In response, I go for a Maze, knowing he has few threats left and no Wastelands. It pays off, he gets another Tombstalker and I stall him out. 5-6 turns later I draw into a Vindicate and get rid of his Tombstalker, and drop a 10/10 or so Knight. I proceed to beat him down from 32 or so with the Knight.
Score: 2-0 games, 1-0 Rounds
Round 2: Jason with traditional Zoo
I had worked out some slots with Jason a few days previous, trying to optimize his list. I figured this was the worst matchup in the room unless I ripped really well. I opened a nice hand of Fetch, Scrub, Thoughtseize, Confidant, Vindicate, Deed, Hymn. I keep and go on the discard plan, but I don't draw more lands. I drop my creatures, but they get bolted. I never hit a third land, even though he wins on turn 10 or so. Such utter failure.
Board: Enlightened Tutors, Dueling Grounds, Crypt and Spellbomb (for Knight and Grim)
Board out: Hymn, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 random
In Game 2, I mull to 6 and open a Karakas-Swamp + 4 somewhat spicy cards. My creatures gets removed, I stall on two lands. Again, he has a slow game, but I have the land screw, even with 24 lands. I wish him good luck in the next rounds.
Score: 2-2 games, 1-1 Rounds
Round 3: Arnold with R/B Goblins
Game 1 is off to a slow start, but he keeps me even slow with 3 Ports online. I can't break through the Port web well, but I manage to drop a Confidant, which he Incinerators. I die from massive Goblin beatdown.
Board in: E tutor, Plagues, Dueling Grounds
Out: Hymn, some Vindicates
Game 2 is the worst game of Magic I've ever played, I'm thinking. Turn 1, I drop Top with a Wasteland, to bait out a Wasteland in his hand. He does. I drop a Bayou and Top, seeing all 3 drops on Top, and no Plagues. He pulls the god draw and quadruple Wastelands me in the first bit of the game. I recover to 3 lands and land Goyf and Jitte it up. I block one and take out a bit of his team, but he Warren Weirdings. I drop a very large Knight, he Perishes, and I get blown out by multiple Piledrivers. I'm on tilt at the moment, but I tell him thanks for the games and best of luck. Inside, I want to die. Freakin' Goblins.
Score: 2-4 games, 1-2 Rounds
Round 4: Niko with U/w Merfolk
I've played Niko before, and I know he's on Merfolk. I keep a spicy discard filled hand, and blow up everything he plays. I 6-for-1 him with a Deed, and he scoops.
In: Tutors, Plagues, Dueling Grounds
Game 2 I drop huge Knights (3 of them) in the mid-to-late game while controlling the early game with Vindicate and Swords. I Karakas then Swords a Kira at one point. Eventually, I rip Enlightened for a Plague and massacre him. He's a good sport.
Score: 4-4 games, 2-2 rounds
Round 5: Po-wen with mono U Merfolk
Again, I know he's on Merfolk, but I've never met the guy. He's a nice guy, and we play the game. This was the best game I played all day: Thoughtseize, Hymn, Confidant, Goyf, Knight, Jitte, victory. This is how it's supposed to go.
Same sideboarding as before.
Game 2, I'm in a shit position: I get a critical Vindicate and Deed Countered, and he's got Sovereign and two LoA on board to my 5/5 Knight. I play and resolve Stoneforge and grab SoFI, and get it in play. I use combat tricks to pump Knight and get a Maze. I take out 1 of his Lords with shenanigans, and then beat in for 12 with a Jitte and Sofi online. I blow his team, then untap with Maze. He can't get there, and scoops.
Score: 6-4 games, 3-2 in rounds.
We go to the nearest place to eat and grab some food, but I know I can't make Top 8 (you needed 10 and not 9 points for Top 8). My friend playing 43 Lands gets in, and plays a grueling 80 minute round against Painter-Grindstone. Eventually, the Zoo player and the Painter player face off, with Painter getting a nut draw in Game 3.
Props: The deck doing what it's supposed to do, SOFI, etc.
Slops: Landscrew with 24 lands? Fuck you. Goblins quad-Wastelanding? fuck that.
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Overall, I'm at a crossroads: How do we beat Goblins, especially with Ports? Maybe I just got nut-drawed and I'm discouraged, but it was such a horrible loss I'm wondering what's happened. Right now, we're great at mid-range beats (I can beat Painter, Merfolk, other Rock, etc.) but I feel we're having trouble with some combo (TES or High Tide) and Super aggro (Goblins, some Zoo variants).
Maybe it's just the good draws, but I'm wondering if we're perhaps in the middle of a widening crevasse between the two styles of speed wins.
-Matt
I dont have all this problem against goblins, but zoo and folks are giving me serious problems...
The problem with combo is that you don't have any answer except extirpate. With tutor package you may put 1 Ethersworn Canonist to slow them down and rip their hand with discard in a meanwhile(turn 2 canonist should give some time).
The local TES player was out of town (and took my Karakas! Bastard! :P) so I didn't pack storm hate.
-Matt
You basically would have won all your matches if you played Zoo...(bad joke)
In all seriousness, though, you are right in admitting that the Rock has problems against aggro, which is what the metagame consists of in our area. Dave also finished out of T8 contention running TA, losing many similar matchups.
Maybe there are things in your SB that you can use to improve your position. The Tariffs and grave hate were dead cards - did you ever side them in? IMO, Plague doesn't do enough unless you have mana acceleration. It doesn't do enough when you get it out T3, and even then you need 2 to really be winning.
Sucks that your Goblins opponent quad-wastelanded you. No fetching for basics?
Did you have Karakas in your deck list? In your play by play, you describing targeting Kira with Karakas.
Take my feedback with a grain of salt ... I am obviously not skilled in the ways of the Rock. But I admire your honesty in terms of assessing the deck for what it is. I did play discard at one time before I realized countering something was almost always better.
Matt, how'd you like the E Tutor package throughout the day? I've LOVED it so far, and really don't see the point of not running it; it "dodges" discard to a reasonable degree, it "solves" a lot of problems in that you have a wide variety of answers to disrupt from difficult angles. I suppose it also gets better if you're already running the Mystic package as you'll have more live targets for E Tutor if you can't draw a Mystic.
I didn't find it too bad at all. I don't like the proposition of not having 4 Plagues though; Ideally, I'd run Tutors and a full set of Plagues.
I had gravehate since I knew James was playing 43 Lands and someone else was playing Dredge.
Tariffs would have been good against the Hypergenesis player and Mani with Painter combo (Emrakul board plan).
The lands that I drew against Goblins were all non-fetches before I landed the Goyf/Knight.
The main problem with Goblins is that it literally pukes out guys, no matter what you do. They have so much card advantage, it's ridiculous. Merfolk I was fine with, Goblins not so much. 2 Plagues are needed to seal the deal.
I would have done exceptionally well at this tournament had I played Dutch Stax :P
-Matt
Mox Diamonds, seriously. It helps against their land destruction and gets Goyfs out turn 1 and Knights out turn 2. Also, what's your sideboarding against them like(w/ the list above)? Maybe there's something else we can help with if you really don't want Moxes in your list.Quote:
How do we beat Goblins, especially with Ports?
That said, game 2 was just bad luck/keep. What was your full hand?
EDIT:
Also, to much grave hate, especially since you have Enlightened Tutors.
@sdematt : If you are having torubles against fast aggro like gobos or zoo maybe you should try to up the sword count to 4-7. I know path to exile goes against the LD plan but I think LD plan is bad against those decks anyways since they can survive with only 1-2 lands.
I have currently started testing a more controllish version since the announcement of Phyrexian Canceller. I have removed Goyf and put them in. I also upped the deed count to 3-4 (still testing) and some EE's in md and sb. I will put up the results of the deck later after more testing but right now the control version is working pretty nice.
I also have problems with the combo matchups (both with goyf and canceller versions) and they are a big enough of every meta to need some sb. The most success I had with my sb was with Leyline of sanctity and discard but the resiliant versions can still go off pretty easly. Another card I will test against combo is oppression and chains of mephistopheles
I was originally playing 6 Swords, but my friends said it was too hateful on aggro and the Mystic package was better, so I thought I'd try it out.
Plus, E. Tutor also searches for Top, which can be nice.
I've tried the Mox Diamonds so many times. They've been so hot and cold for me it's ridiculous. Sometimes I'm getting nuts draws, other times I'm literally doing nothing and wishing they were removal. Ugh.
I've got exams until the 23rd, but I'll try to keep posting.
I did like the Sword/Jitte package, especially against the Folk. But, I feel like Gobbo-lins are the real issue with me. Mind you, again, I have the absolute aggro meta. It's literally ALL combo or aggro, so I may go to Stax.
-Matt
Mystic package seems a tad too slow versus Goblins, you're not swinging with an equipped guy until your 4th turn which may not matter if they vomited their hand onto the table already (casting Mystic turn 2, keeping mana open to flash in Jitte at eot turn 3 means you're limited in removal options if they start rolling).
Brought this list to a tourney last sunday...
Mox less build
23 land.. basic lands of rock.. with Ith karakas 4, wasteland...
The list
13 creatures
4 knight
4 bob
4 tarmo
1 eternal witness
4 swords
4 vindicate
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition
4 hymn
2 pernicious
2 EE
4 sensei
Sb was a bit funky
3 gerrards verdict
3 extirpate
1 bog
1 eternal witness
1 elspeth --- was never used...was also another E plague...
3 edict
2 compost --- replaced e plagues since I saw none and saw tons of black decks...It was a bad choice however...I think...
1 the tabernacle
Toook this to top 8. at a 55 person tourney.. The top 8 just split the winnings because people were tired..
Tourney report..
Rnd 1 Tezz Affinity
Won game 1 easily..
Lost game 2 via disciple
Won game 3
Didnt see any deeds this game...
Rnd 2 Affinity with red and etched champion
Won game 1 vial Kotr maze of ith
Lost game 2 via Ravager Etched champion
Draw game 3... I ended up with 1 life.(he has used his 3 burn spells).. After I deed away all his lands... hez left with 3 cranial plating.. while im left with a bob which I plowed.. I still have bob in hand stp and EE... and sensei on top of my library... I couldn't find any threats no matter how much I fetched...
Rnd 3 TES
Lost game 1..combos with 16 tokens
Won game 2 via extirpate then discard...
Won game 3 as I was hoping he would go for empty the warrens with tabernacle in my hand...He did... alas... confidant drew me into more discard and he couldnt rebuild his hand..
Rnd 4 D and T
Won game 1 easily.. I hymn away 2 lands...
Lost game 2 easily - I couldnt find any white sources.. VIndicate and stp got stuck in my hand
Lost game 3 lost to serra avenger.. I didnt have enough mana to EE.. and Kotr couldnt block.. it... was down to 3..
Rnd 5 Thopter
Lost game 1
Won game 2 via extirpate
Won game 3 via extirpate.. and baiting top with 2 cc spells
Rnd 6 Merfs
Lost game 1 due to speed
Won game 2
Won game 3
Top 8...
I was facing the mirror in top 8.. but they didnt want to play anymore.. so we just decided to split the prizes....
The deck wasnt good to me.. but It still worked...
I agree with matt that I think the decks problems is really fast aggro....Gobs and zoo....are the main concern...
With me it goes 50/50 with zoo still, but I think its slightly in their favor... Bolts,fireblast and price from the side are a head ache... Goblin ring leaders are my primary concern against goblins...
Im still debating about moxen....
I was always happy with eternal witness.. As a one of it can get back your discard.. swords , vindicate, knight. Deed... and is good for almost any match... I wouldnt recommend her as a 2 of however... just 1 seemed like the perfect fit for me....
I was playing Eternal Witness for eons until the format sped up with Survival combo. I found I always wanted it to be another piece of removal, not recursion FOR removal.
I may go back to Doran and try him out again. At a 5/5, even with the colour issue, he "turns off" Piledriver and is a fat body to boot. Just brainstorming here.
And the Sword package is better against Folk and Zoo (but moreso Folk), you're right.
-Matt
Yeah, I experience that. I've tried with and without, but it's the card that made the Goblins matchup winnable for me. Like I've said before, you'll hate it at times but it's necessary against some decks.Quote:
I've tried the Mox Diamonds so many times. They've been so hot and cold for me it's ridiculous. Sometimes I'm getting nuts draws, other times I'm literally doing nothing and wishing they were removal. Ugh.
Well you say your meta consists only of combo or aggro so I don't think it is wrong to go too hateful on aggro and up the sword counts since it is a meta call. I would rather be over hating in a defined meta than try to prepare for random decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think equipments can definetly be very good but they are also pretty slow against decks like gobos-zoo and combo. And to be honest I always found rock's matchup with merfolk pretty favourable without equipments.
Cutting 2 Stoneforge and 2 equipment and replacing with 2 Path to Exile and 2 Doran is entirely reasonable in an aggro meta.
i will test the following version of the deck, including doran and darkblast, which should help the goblin matchup a bit, besides it is going to be a mox-less build, since i felt them to be inconsistent and horrible topdecks
23 lands (including 3 wasteland, 1 canopy, 1 karakas, 1 maze)
4x confidant
4x goyf
4x knight
2x doran
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition (right now its 3 because i still miss the 4th thoughtseize)
4x hymn
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
2x deed
1x darkblast
3x divining top
sideboard
4x extirpate
2x deed
4x diabolic edict
3x gaddock teeg
2x krosan grip
without the moxen the manabase is a bit less stable though, thus making the merfolk matchup a bit harder, goblins i still not that favorable but darkblast is a blast here, and doran really helps a lot too
does anyone have suggestions for a mox-less build to improve problematic matchups like goblins and zoo? would be more spotremoval the way to go against goblins, or should the extra diabolic edicts from the sideboard be enough to seal the deal, or should i use more targeted removal?
my problems against zoo are probably because i lack the real duals and am using the shocklands, but i am trying to hit myself as few times as possible..... either way, got to get the real ones