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i agree chill hurts burn way too much i have shut a burn deck down with the turn 2 chill allow for the draw into the turn 5 chill im am in a extremely heavy burn played area out of 16 players in the area 9 of them play burnQuote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Dimir charm's other modes are more useful than most people think. Kills so many creatures, and can kill Bob in storm without be dead against the rest of the deck like most removal spells. Also, if you're worried about an Entreat on your end step via SDT, then counterbalance will have a 1 on top. I don't see the scenario that they could have 2 tops in play or 1 top and a brainstorm in hand as well as Entreat on top and counterbalance in play is likely enough to warrant using a bad card in place of a good card. Brainfreeze off of cascade is worse than useless, as it could fuel dig/snapcaster shenanigans for them later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by tons of fun
let see i beat miracles omnitell and due to this card u love it off the cascade because of it mills 6 cards and miracles can only for or counter only one while they try tin in reponse draw. i swept 2 legacy tournements now with this deck and the freezes have ruin sneak and oni and miracles every time i have used itQuote:
Originally Posted by ChildofKorlis
dimir charm is useless in the current meta to man creatures that power are out of it range that this deck cares about
if u question the brain freeze go try it out ull see were it can be very good in the match ups that i board it in against
Dimir Charm kills every creature in the format except goyf and "I wins" (Griselbrand/emrakul/hoof). Oh and flickerwisp/brimaz I guess... It also counters the following: Nat order, green sun, glimpse of nature, show n tell, entreat, terminus, past in flames, infernal tutor, ancestral vision, lava spike, rift bolt, chain lightning, flame rift, life from the loam, ponder... the list goes on. I have cast the card in all three modes in a single match before. Overall a pretty useful card. I don't know if it's as good in a post cruise world but we will see. It is also a blue card which can be relevant.
so clique,truename, batter skull,Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorhammer
I had a question about sb, my old list had 2 nihil spell bomb and 1 grafdigger's cage in the gy hate spot and am thinking about making it just 2 cage. What mu's was spellbomb good in that cage wasnt? Lands? I never remember bringing it in against RUG to cut down Goose. Maybe if Dig Through Time gets more play spellbomb could be better? Here's my SB for an unknown meta:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
Thoughts? Full list in sig
The thing that keeps turning me away from Shardless BUG is how difficult combo matchups can be. Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach/Liliana of the Veil do go a long way with dealing with these decks but sometimes it just isn't enough. I feel like Shardless BUG is basically like a Blue Jund. Great against fair decks. It can be tailored even more in the main to beat aggressive creature decks, but the combo matchups are still pretty loose. Force of Will does help, but sometimes the deck can take a pretty long time to win a game unless it has hit its Tarmogoyfs. Trying to beat combo with 1/1's and 2/2's can give them enough time to draw out of the disruption. I know it's not very popular, but I feel like there is a lot of merit to running Meddling Mage in the sideboard. Maybe even a 2/2 split of Meddling Mage and Containment Priest. I think the format is really all about what's on the table, not necessarily about what's in their hand. Of course there are a few exceptions to this, but in general I think tailoring your sideboard to beating combo is a very real thing. Shardless BUG is not really a control deck even though sometimes it feels like it. The deck is designed to bury your opponent in card advantage and take over the game with attrition. But having a big STOP sign against decks like Sneak and Show or ANT can really buy the deck a lot of time to put the game away.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeff
Played shardless bug in a small tournament this weekend and made top 4. Played this list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Visions
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Meddling Mage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Savannah
1 Duress
1 Nights of Souls' Betrayal
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Notion Thief
Round 1 - Forgemaster MUD, Loss(0-2)
This was totally miserable, I was able to wasteland a couple of times and counter a trinisphere but he ended up getting enough mana to cast Sundering Titan to armageddon me and then played Platinum Angel. Game 2 was pretty similar. It feels like this is just a totally miserable matchup that can't be won unless you just keep on wastelanding the opponent?
Round 2 - 5C Slivers, Win(2-1)
This was not the classic slivers deck. It played all the mana slivers, had Training Grounds and maindeck Natural Orders into the 5c slivers. Game 2 I got Blood Mooned and then he Natural Ordered into Sliver Queen and he was able to make infinite tokens since he had Training Grounds and Heart Sliver in play. Sad times!
Round 3 - Shardless Nic Fit, Win(2-0)
Nothing much to say about this matchup except that I knew beforehand what he was playing and game 1 I kept a one land hand with Deathrite Shaman and hoped that he would sac Veteran Explorer to get me out of land screw and he did. I kept a similar hand game 2 and he ended up not giving me the lands from Veteran Explorer but then I eventually drew out of my mana screw and then rolled over him.
Round 4 - UWR Stoneblade, Win(2-0)
This was a crazy grindy matchup which was pretty fun to play. Game 2 actually ended with me having 6 cards in my library and he had 7 cards left. Won this match by resolving an early Night of Souls' Betrayal which blanked all of his threats.
Made Top 4 and then we just split. Top 4 consisted of 2 Deadguy Ales, Shardless Nic Fit and Shardless BUG.
- This was the first time I tried out the Meddling Mage sideboard package. I didn't play against any combo decks so I didn't have a chance to board it in.
- The Leyline of the Void should probably be something else like Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb. I'm actually not sure why Lejay selected a leyline for graveyard hate when there's so many other cards to choose from?
- I wanted to try out Tasigur just for the hell of it and it actually did pretty well in the grindy matchups. Just make sure that when you delve, remove all the non-land cards you don't want to get back in your graveyard and then you should be good to go.
- The next day I was testing this deck against the Tezzerator deck and wow, I have no idea how to beat that matchup either. They have so many ways to attack you and once a Tezzeret resolves it seems like the game is over.
On a side note, SCG posted the results from the Legacy Premier IQ this past weekend here. 5 Shardless BUG in the top 32, nice showing! If any of you guys are here on source, I'd love to pick your brain a little bit about card choices! Anyone can feel free to chime in, but here's what I have:Quote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
- I had forgotten when KTK first came out, a lot of Shardless decks went to 3 Visions / 2 DTT and that trend re-emerged this past weekend. I've not tested with DTT in this deck, is it worth it?
- A couple pilots opted for less planeswalkers (1 Jace, 2 Lili) in favor of more discard, is this just trying to keep the deck as flexible as possible for a more unknown meta? I personally loved the 2/3 split I was playing before KTK... :P
- Baleful Strix falling a bit out of favor in those lists, do the Delver/creature matchups suffer without them?
- With Containment Priest out, is the SB white splash worth the 5-6 cards (Scrubland + x Meddling Mage/Containment Priest) against the combo matchups?
That sounds like a control deck to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
@TheHeff
I actually think that the one Tasigur is all right in the maindeck since I feel that the deck is a bit threat light. I initially thought it would just be a bad 5th goyf but if you think about it, it can't be decayed, doesn't die from a bolt, can block a bunch of threats while staying alive, and has a chance to give you card advantage. If you ever manage to cast Tasigur and have 4 mana open to activate the ability, it feels like you are just going to drown them in card quality.
Also, if the meta shifts back to being a bunch of delver decks and less combo, Tasigur will be a good maindeck card for the mid/late game.
I played an almost similar list to yours at a 60 people tournament, with some good players like Mark Koenig participating.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
Had to drop when I was 4 - 2 - 0 due to a private thing.
The only difference was that I played a TNN instead of Trasigur and I added a sylvan Library for one discard spell.
TNN was okay, especially when I boarded the Jitte in, I think he won me one game, I will definitely try out Traisugr in this spot. Sylvan Library was doing so much work though, it won me at least one game vs UWR bladecontrol and made several other matches way easier(arranging top cards for an incoming cascade is beyond good).
Having 1 or 2 Krosan Grip in the Sideboard makes alot of sense and it helped me alot.
My main problem in most matches is getting to 3 mana, when they play a lot of disruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
I've been running MM since Lejay Top8ed BoM with this list and my post-board win% is almost absurd. Almost the entire combo-suite struggles against the 4 discard, 4 MM, 4 Fow and 3 lili.dec you become after board, so adding them is certainly something I recommend. Playing an additional land in the SB is also welcome now as the format is rotating back to wasteland and mana denial strategies like RUG.
Regarding C-Priest vs MM I favor MM. It's a less impactful card against some combo decks, but the fact that they are live against all combo decks (boarding C-Priest against Storm is pretty miserable) makes the choice easy for me. MM also gets better in multiples so 4 of them I believe is the right number.
MM is fantastic, I recommend them warmly.Quote:
- This was the first time I tried out the Meddling Mage sideboard package. I didn't play against any combo decks so I didn't have a chance to board it in.
- The Leyline of the Void should probably be something else like Surgical Extraction or Nihil Spellbomb. I'm actually not sure why Lejay selected a leyline for graveyard hate when there's so many other cards to choose from?
- I wanted to try out Tasigur just for the hell of it and it actually did pretty well in the grindy matchups. Just make sure that when you delve, remove all the non-land cards you don't want to get back in your graveyard and then you should be good to go.
- The next day I was testing this deck against the Tezzerator deck and wow, I have no idea how to beat that matchup either. They have so many ways to attack you and once a Tezzeret resolves it seems like the game is over.
Tasigur is certainly interesting, might try him as well.
The Leyline is for punishing fire decks mainly. Remember that 4 mana is not Emrakul-much, it's definitely hardcastable in all matchups. It's also much more impactful than a spellbomb would be against for example dredge or lands.
I've faced Tezzerator with Shardless numerous times and I have about an 80% win rate. Attack their clunky manabase. Decay all signets and talismans and try to keep them off colored mana. Tez is a nutty deck though, and sometimes they "just have it" but try using the fact that the deck is pretty clunky and you will probably have a good chance of beating it.
Maybe the build of Tezzerator you've playing against is different than the one I was playing against? Post board, I was facing a lot of Trinispheres and Lodestone Golems making all my cards more expensive and turning off cascade at the same time. And they can cast those from colorless mana sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsLeif
Also, I was probably boarding incorrectly as I tried siding in the Meddling Mages along with the few artifact/permanent hate I had but then after a few games I realized that they have just so many different ways to find the cards that they need that Meddling Mages don't do enough. I then tried boarding in the discard spells instead of the Mages and they were a bit better but it was still an uphill battle.
Yeah I would not board the mages, Lodestone is a beating, but it's smaller than goyf so i haven't found it to be that much of a problem, it depends on their draws of course. I usually board discard if i suspect they board out chalice of the void. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are both fantastic in the matchup naturally.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
Interesting, I might have to give the MM sb package a try. Here's my current board and how I think I can change it, anyone have any thoughts?
Current:
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Vendilion Clique
Proposed MM sb
1x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Scrubland
2x Thoughtseize
2x Toxic Deluge
Thoughts? My maindeck setup is 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn, 3 Lili, 2 Jace, 4 FoW, 22 Land
So, with TC banned, UR Delver is as powerful anymore. That opens space for BUG decks to shine again, and Shardless BUG is my favorite one.
My latest list is:
Lands [22]
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
Creatures [13]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
1 Tombstalker
Spells [25]
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Time
Sideboard [15]
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Hydroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
I've been searching for a black 1CMC removal, and Vendetta seemd pretty flashy in my eyes. Lifeloss can be rough, but since I've dropped the Thoughtseizes, this can be recovered. I don't know if it's better than Disfigure, but sometimes Toxic Deluge is too slow. It may be worth testing.
Also, I needed another blue spell to keep the blue count up for Force of Will. Dig Through Time seems fine, as late game gas... Too bad it works poorly with Tombstalker.
Have you guys been rocking Hymns as well? Or just sticking with target discard like Thoughtseize and IoK?
Seems pretty good. I would certainly recommend Night of Souls' Betrayal, that card is insane. I don't know if you have a Sylvan Library somewhere in your MD but that card is similarly insane in this deck, especially against miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeff