[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Really nice list (Sorin + dryad !!!)

How was day 2 ?
Could you give us some insights about your 2 days ?

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Day 2 was rough.
r10: Lost to omni-tell which won by research/development for lab maniac. He cunning wished for Polymorphist's Jest which turned off my hatebears in play (Teeg and canonist) and went off.
r11: Beat RUG delver. won game 3 despite getting stifled my first two fetch lands and going down to 3. Double rhino helped stablize.
r12: Lost to Rill's Cloudvine deck. Won game 2 with humility/batterskull. Mulled to 4 game 3.
r13: Lost to stoneblade in 2. Academy ruins and batterskull was gross.
r14: Smashed RUG delver. Rhino meet goyf.
r15: Beat death and taxes in 3

All-star of the weekend: Rhino as usual.
Dud of the weekend: Probably courser. Rarely drew it and never gsz for it.
SB all-star: Dryad Miltant was excellent against dredge (2-0) and storm (Beat Caleb S who finished 3rd/4th)
SB Dud: Lily seemed meh. I missed having night's soul's betrayal. Sword of fire and ice didn't see much action.

Changes going forward:
Main: -1 Courser, -1 SFM (maybe), -1 swords. +1 Deluge, +1 Tasigur
SB: +1 Dread of night, +1 Perish, -1 sword of fire and ice, -1 deluge (to main)

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Originally Posted by jbone2016

Day 2 was rough.
All-star of the weekend: Rhino as usual.
Dud of the weekend: Probably courser. Rarely drew it and never gsz for it.
SB all-star: Dryad Miltant was excellent

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Yeah !
I have always been a fan of dryad against graveyard strategies. It covers the GSZ @2 like a champ acting as a very powerful back up to Gaddock. ANT & Dredge are obviously the most impacted ones.

As for Courser, we spoke about him a lot some months ago.
Some like him, I don't.

So overall 9-6 ? Rough mulligans...But you should be proud. Such an achievement from my perspective !

As much as I like humility, I think this hate is too narrow as of now. There is too much combo decks lurking around and humility does not cover enough MU to my taste.
I think extraction effects are overall more powerful. Sure not as strong as humility against S&S but better against other combo decks.

We are a slow deck by design and we need to disrupt until T3 or T4 and more to be able to land a game ending spell (i.e cranial extraction).
I truly believe we have overlooked "Stain the mind" as an improvment over cranial extraction for non Jund Fit deck.

I did mention the card in one of my older post but some quickly dismissed the idea. However I am pretty sure that we could gain a fundamental turn by playing it over say cranial extraction.

Would it be good in Junk Fit ? Maybe not but Junk Fit is one of the Nic Fit version packing the most creatures.

Gratz Jbones. I'm very impressed by your regularity!

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Originally Posted by Burnwillows

Thank you all for your advice and opinions.

@moseby: I don't plan on running Rector, as it seems like win-more imo and I don't like the appeal of it. Aside from that, Dredge shows up often in my meta, so the grave hate can be a bit much.

@Bobmans: Admittedly, a bit of added ramp could do the deck wonders. Aside from that, I'd be willing to switch out Finks and the Nightmares for DRS/whatever, but I'd like Thrun to stay; he's been a wonder in the Miracles and grindy matchups, so I'd like to test with him a bit more before I come to a conclusion. As for PrimeTime, I've tested him out and found him somewhat lackluster. With all the "search" and thinning effects in the deck, it isn't hard to find the Two Towers, and after I have them, he just turns into a big beater. Don't have a Karakas yet, but it's definitely on my list (Kinda hard to find). Barring the need to find cards/budget, does this list look more adequate?

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

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Nice list... I am just getting in to Nic Fit, been playing for about a month now. Gotta say, I love me some Siege Rhino. I only have two in my deck right now, but I have two more coming in the mail. That card is what got me playing Birthing Pod again in Modern (RIP).

Courser of Kruphix... I have found to be a bit underwhelming. It's nice for ramp, but by the time you have it on the battlefield you've already got a lot else going on. Nice to get the life gain to grind out some wins. Nice to Top in to a good draw then have a land as that second card so you can play it off the top of your library. The only thing that is keeping me really interested in Courser is that I am waiting to get Titania in there as well (in the mail, as well). Methinks there could be some synergy between those two. Right now, I am running a 2nd Eternal Witness instead of Courser to test out.

I would post a list but I am fiddling too much with stuff to have a set list. Nice to have a deck that I can fiddle with some fun-of's in there like I used to with Modern Pod (RIP).

I've been playing and loving punishing nic fit.. but seeing all this rhino action makes me wonder if i should ditch red to go white.. I do have lots of combo in my meta though and the rebs are nice... decisions.

Its not standard its situationally better. Its currently better then it was before now that ur delver has reverted back to its three color no basics counter parts.

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Originally Posted by Burnwillows

Is running Path in the Junk lists standard now? Do you mind explaining why it's better than Swords?

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The idea being that most Legacy decks run few basics, so after an explorer trigger or 2, most decks will probably have no basic lands left to fetch out. Meaning Path to Exile pretty much will read: "W, Remove target creature from the game."

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Personally i think that Rercurring Nightmares are too cute for this deck. The deck has a decent velocity. Apart from that you run the Two Towers (same role?).

Siege Rhino is a 4 drop, but relying on Veteran Explorer to ramp is in my personal experience not a good idea. A while back i switched to 3 Veteran/4 Dearhrite Shaman. If you cut the Recurry's and an Explorer you have the split. The good thing about 4 DRS is that those pressure your opponent Graveyard, Life Points and/or negates Burn (more or less) and while doing so enables you to ramp faster (into Siege Rhino, weee). Maybe the greatest part about DRS is that it forces your opponent to play removal on it. And with having 4 it is ok. One last + is that with 3 Carpet of Flowers on the board you can easiliy switch to those and not loose any velocity. Before i ran the split i found myself more often more screwed.

Then Thrun and Finks. Personally i think those are obsolete in this build and you might wanna consider 1 Primeval Titan (two towers) and the 4th Siege Rhino.

and Karakas is a reason for me to play the Junk lust. + Sigarda, + Gaddock Teeg.

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I agree with a lot of this (especially the 4/3 split between DRS and Explorer, the 2nd Explorer you draw is super awkward), but I think Recurring Nightmare + Siege Rhinos is one of the more powerful things the Junk version can do. I'd be more inclined to go down to 1 Nightmare and run 1 Diabolic Intent to fetch it, since it can also grab whatever else you need in a pinch. That also opens the door to running a non-green finisher, either Sun Titan for maximum graveyard recursion or Grave Titan for a more "must answer now" threat.

I'm not a fan of Primeval Titan in the builds that don't run Kessig Wolf Run as a finisher. I'd almost rather have a Knight of the Reliquary if you need land tutoring.

My ideal suite would probably be:

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Veteran Explorer

Spells (24)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

Land (22)
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath

Edit: Wait, that's 62 cards. Maybe cut the Knight of the Reliquary and the 3rd Path to Exile?

Id cut the third plains and a knight

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Id cut the third plains and a knight

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Maybe. The 3rd Plains was support the additional white requirements of the Knight + Sun Titan, and with it cut the deck only runs 6 basics. Maybe that's fine, since you probably only want to ramp once or maybe twice. 21 lands doesn't seem like enough to consistently be able to cast the Titan or GSZ for 5.

As it stand you have 7 white 6 green 5 black producing lands in a g/b splash white deck. 21 lands is fine with explorer youre way too heavry on white mana for your color distribution.

I hate to be so negative, especially when I am not actively playing, but I really wonder if the Siege Rhino version is the right way to go. In theory I would say that something like Punishing Fire, Scapewish or BUG (either Pod or DTT) should do much better in this meta. Does the Siege Rhino version actually have any results?

I am trying to think of a GSZ target for 5 that is not thrun or huntmaster.
Any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Tao

I hate to be so negative, especially when I am not actively playing, but I really wonder if the Siege Rhino version is the right way to go. In theory I would say that something like Punishing Fire, Scapewish or BUG (either Pod or DTT) should do much better in this meta. Does the Siege Rhino version actually have any results?

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I'm continually demolishing locals.

I wanted to play in a larger tournament in Seattle this weekend to test even more, but an alternate arrangement has prevented me from going. I'll be playing it at SCG Seattle in March, though.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Burnwillows

For 5? Thragtusk, Titania, and maybe even Deranged Hermit.

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Titania is a boss in other decks, although I wonder how effective she would be with only fetchlands and no Wastelands. Nightmare chains would be fun, though.

I just have a feeling that Rhino is a trap. It has amazing stats, but it doesn't contribute to the game plan of winning by card advantage. The theory behind Rhino is more like "stick a threat and hope it is enough" which could in theory be a good plan too but the results seem to suggest it is not. With all the hype and discussion around it I would have at least expected something.

With Scapewish, Fire, BUG Pod or BUG Control you work towards something - Scapewish works towards a big combo finish, Fire for inevitability after GSZing a Titan, Pod for the Pod chain and BUG control wants to stick a Jace (and / or resolve a DTT). I don't see this kind of plan in any of the recent GBW lists. Rhino is a better card than Huntmaster for sure and if Rhino was red instead of white I would certainly use it to replace Huntmasters but I don't think it is good enough to build around it.

Titania is rad as fuck. She's nearly guaranteed to give you a 5/3, and the opponent has to either 1. destroy Titania ASAP or 2. win the next turn. The card represents 10 power for 5 mana that can occasionally produce even more tokens. 10! for 3GG! It also serves as a nice buffer against Wasteland decks when you really need x land from the gy. IMO this card will gain a lot of momentum among the NicFitters, especially those running 7+ fetches.

Played FNM last night with PunishingFit, had very disappointing results but managed to fucking destroy Storm in the last round, easily one of my most difficult MUs. Deed activate for 0, destroy 3 LEDs and a Chrome Mox, why yes please. I somehow managed to survive a swarm of 10 goblin tokens in game 2 with 'Tusk and PFire backup. It made truly vindicated my earlier losses against Lands (mull to 4 D:) and 4C Pyromancer (wut?).

Regarding Siege Rhino, I obtained 3 just so I could play JunkFit but haven't yet been struck by the urge. It looks to have a more well rounded gameplan with StP and Rhinos, but loses fun tricks like REB, Pfire, Slaughter Games, and Huntmaster. It's sure as fuck popular enough atm, so maybe it's got something going for it that we just don't see? IMO Karakas, Teeg, Sigarda are reason enough to play Junk; Rhino seems to have just rounded the curve a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Tao

I just have a feeling that Rhino is a trap. It has amazing stats, but it doesn't contribute to the game plan of winning by card advantage. The theory behind Rhino is more like "stick a threat and hope it is enough" which could in theory be a good plan too but the results seem to suggest it is not. With all the hype and discussion around it I would have at least expected something.

With Scapewish, Fire, BUG Pod or BUG Control you work towards something - Scapewish works towards a big combo finish, Fire for inevitability after GSZing a Titan, Pod for the Pod chain and BUG control wants to stick a Jace (and / or resolve a DTT). I don't see this kind of plan in any of the recent GBW lists. Rhino is a better card than Huntmaster for sure and if Rhino was red instead of white I would certainly use it to replace Huntmasters but I don't think it is good enough to build around it.

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I agree, the Junk version is more grindy and Scapewish versions do have more "win out of nowhere" syndrome, and the blue version does have Jace (which I really like, since you can cast him on Turn 2).

Mind you, you get to play a fair game of big Magic where you don't do anything unfair with Junk. You usually Rhino, but generally, Thrun and Sigarda people to death. Over the testing I've been doing, Rhino is generally good enough against all of the Delver decks and Shardless, and when you move into decks with more STP's, then Sigarda comes out to play. I've only lost a few times with Sigarda, and those were against Miracles due to Terminus. Against a non-Terminus deck, Sigarda and Thrun are VERY strong. You also have to remember Tao, the bad matchup you're thinking, say Combo and Miracles, vary greatly in numbers here in the States. On the west coast of the US, Combo is popular, but it's Storm and some Omni, and Miracles sees some play (but not much). That's why I've been tilting my board more in favour of the combo matchup with more Thoughtseizes, Extractions, and Teegs. Sure, it's no Force of Will, but it's something.

TL: DR The Junk version seems to be better, or at least, as good as, the other versions against most of the Delver and other midrange decks, whereas Red and Blue are going to be better against Combo. I really don't know how to fix the Junk build to be better against Combo other than, say, running Militant in the board or even more hate pieces. Ichneumann Druid, anyone? ;)

But in all honesty, I'm going to toy with 4C Nic Fit and try to run 1 Badlands or something since Slaughter Games is a hell of a card.

-Matt

Played another solid day of Punishing nic fit at my local. Only round I lost to was to High Tide. First game I got blown out.. 2nd I slaughtered game him out.. 3rd game I slaughter games for high tide.. he kept 1 in his board that he still cunning wished for.

I am wondering if naming cunning wish is the best card to name vs high tide anyways.. arent all their wincons hanging out in the board because of it?

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Originally Posted by thotcrime

What are your thoughts on Dryad Militant in the SB? Good against Dredge and Storm, anything else?

I'm probably sticking with Punishing Jund for this week's tourney and I'm trying to maximize my combo hate cards. This is what I'm thinking so far:

Leyline of the Void
Choke
Slaughter Games
Thoughtseize
Surgical
Thorn of Amethyst
REB

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Sounds good, how many cards do you think you need to spend in your sideboard at combo hate? What kind of meta do you expect?

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Originally Posted by Myelectronicdays

Played another solid day of Punishing nic fit at my local. Only round I lost to was to High Tide. First game I got blown out.. 2nd I slaughtered game him out.. 3rd game I slaughter games for high tide.. he kept 1 in his board that he still cunning wished for.

I am wondering if naming cunning wish is the best card to name vs high tide anyways.. arent all their wincons hanging out in the board because of it?

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If you play against Time spiral name Time Spiral. Against classic Solidarity it is more difficult, but the deck is not that much played anymore.