Ya, right now there are only 4 spots dedicated to hating combo. Trinisphere and 3 Chalice. I just hope combo isn't going to be as popular as it was in DC.
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Ya, right now there are only 4 spots dedicated to hating combo. Trinisphere and 3 Chalice. I just hope combo isn't going to be as popular as it was in DC.
we play land
we play loam
we play splash white
we play enlighteened tutor
why we don t play solitary confinement?
For the storm matchup? Terrible. They can just bounce it after they go off. You need proactive hate to stop them even getting to ad naus.Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeldoran
storm machup is terrible.. what bounce use them??
Tes bounce:1/2 chain of vapor = 1/2 target so we need more hate in board for expample 1 canonist and 1 chalice or null rod or solitary, so there isn t different.. again tes: they use 1/2 krosan grip = we need fast port or waste. for goblin it s easy or tabernacle or EE.
0 point for confinement
Ant bounce: 2 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Chain of Vapor 2 Krosan Grip 1 Wipe Away 1 Slaughter Pact = canonist is nothing.. all target can bounce it. krosan and wipe we need port and waste for denial. hurkyl's cannot touch enchantment so 1 point for lyliane white or solitary confinement. chain need chalice set1 and 0 or 1 null rod for 1 Mox Diamond 2 Chrome Mox 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 4 Lotus Petal. conclusion: MU impossible.
1 point for confinement
Spring Tide bounce: 1/2 Rebuild 1 chain of vapor 1 Nel Torbido 1 Wipe Away all wishable.. very very impossible but rebuild like hurkyl's don t targets enchantmens. so i think another point for confinement.
solitary confinement help vs progenitus (we have only chasm and maybe they have wasteland), price of progress (we have only chasm and maybe they have wasteland), annihilator (we have only karakas and maybe they have wasteland). show and tell is a difficult MU and solitary can give u some help. we can draw with confidant or loam so there isnt drawback with solidary in board, imho 1 slot for it in side can help.
VS storm we need more slot in side and we need play like a stompy/staxx: 1 defense grid 1 chalice 1 canonist 1 solitary confinement + 4bob and 1 enlightened tutor
this is my side:
4 bob
1 defense grid
1 chalice
1 canonist
1 solitary confinement
1 enlightened tutor
1 tormod's crypt
1 oblivion stone
1 cursed totem
2 krosan grip
1 i don t know.. i m testing :D trinisphere/null rod/extirpate/EE/meekstone(i play with cabal pit main deck)
you don't get it. A competent Storm pilot will be able to bounce it after casting Ad Naus, which makes it useless. The best way to attack storm is to make it difficult for them to cast ad naus, not to give yourself shroud.Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeldoran
I'm not a Lands player by any means, but I was just curious as to why Null Rod isn't being considered for the storm MU? Shutting off LED/Petal/random SDT essentially forces them to slow roll via cantrip into a CoV or other bounce. If I remember correctly, this also has little if any downside with your deck and it has uses for nearly every MU beyond Storm.
As for the above argument, yeah, a competant storm player can bounce something. But just because they have the ability to remove an obstacle doesn't mean you shouldn't run it. Similar arguments are made for decks like Rock/Loam/Lands: just because there exists dozens of answers for GY's doesn't mean said decks are junk.
I'm also curious how popular Chalice is for Lands. Yea, anti-synergy with E. Tutor, but I would rather opt for more answers and some anti-synergy than less answers period.
If you're really worried about hating for combo, GSZ? Enables you to tutor up Gaddock Teeg, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.
Again, I am by no means a Lands player so if something I said was completely erroneous for the style of the deck please explain to me why rather than flaming me.
Forlorn Egoist
Thanks FE for bringing this up but right now, Null Rod is already used in most Land's players sideboard. As is Chalice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, Solitary Confinement, etc. do close to nothing against storm combo because they only stop the finisher and not the engine itself. The only storm decks they can potentially shut down are the bad ones (read: Belcher). When you have drawn half your library with Ad Nauseam or Blue Sun's Zenith and have ∞ mana floating, it's just a formality to get rid of a couple of these cards. They are basically not obstacles for storm in any way, but if you have them in your SB already (for other matchups), you might as well bring them in, since they are better than nothing and there's a 0.01% chance they will win you the game if your opponent gets really unlucky or if he's just stupid.
If you really want to beat storm with slow decks like Lands and Enchantress, you will need to quickly dump multiple hate cards on the table (the kind that can't be ignored) and then get some kind of clock online while you look for more hate cards.
First I'll just say that I have way more experience playing TES and ANT than I do playing lands. From that perspective, the problem vs storm is that we have no relevant clock to make anti-storm cards relevant. At all. They have all the time in the world to sculpt their hand, find their answer, and just win because we're putting zero pressure on them. They don't care about recurring Wasteland because they can go off easily with one land given so much time. EE and Chasm locks do nothing. Bob and Tar Pit beats are not enough of a clock for them to care about, and there's no reason for them to try for Ad Nauseam rather than IGG against us anyway. In my humble opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Let me start off by saying that storm is definitely a bad matchup, but I think people overestimate storm's ability to operate against Wasteland.
I am 4-0 in games with Lands against storm. Yes, I had some amazing hands. This is how I beat storm:
Game 1: He goes first with Underground Sea, Ponder, shuffle, draw. I Mox Diamond, Exploration, Wasteland his land, play factory. He tanks on land for 3 turns while I get there with 2 factories and no loam.
Game 2: I don't remember what he did. All I know is that I had Mox Diamond and I transmuted for Chalice on turn 2 and played it for 0. He Ad Nauseums next turn and kills himself due to being unable to play his LED's to get hellbent for the infernal he found. I got lucky that he did not hit a Tendrils, but I think it was a mistake for his to try to go off so quickly. Although I never saw them, 3 Extirpates out of the board are pretty solid here as well.
--------------
Game 1: This was 5 color, and this matchup is slightly better than the U/B I played before. I get a quick Waste-lock on him with the perfect hand of Manabond, Loam, and Wasteland. I end up getting there with factories pretty quickly. He had to mull and I think he had a loose keep.
Game 2: I Wastelanded early, and when he saw I got the loam engine he decided to ball out since I guess he did not think he could surive the ongoing waste-lock. He made about 14 goblins and I smashed them with a timely Explosives. I felt bad after these games because I knew the guy, and I was talking about how he was probably going to destroy me before the match.
So I highly doubt that this kind of luck will continue against storm, but I just wanted to share how Lands has the potential to beat almost anybody with degenerate plays. It's an awesome deck.
Edit: FixedQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I'm going to have to agree with McChainmail here. All the proposed answers so far can be (and will be) bounced by a competent player, the only way I've been able to increase my chances against storm have been to get an early trinisphere then immediatly follow it by a chalice set to one, preventing CoV from being cast and nullifying any positive mana increases from Led or dark ritual. In the games that I have done this I have won. But it isn't consistant enough to depend on each game due to the nature of how fast combo decks can go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
@Doomsday: In terms of a relavent clock. That's why I've kept Mishra's factory in my build. After playing ANT for a couple months and understanding (mostly) some obvious weaknessess I've found that ANT will most likely not go for Ad Naus if there life is at or close to 10, which isn't a failsafe but it does require the ANT player to instead take the course of IGG. Which isn't always a sure win, if the incorrect mana excels are in the graveyard then the combo is pretty much done.
@Tammit:
I believe you misquoted me. The first player could not do anything about being raped by Wasteland, and even if he sat and stared at my Chalice for a while, I'm pretty sure that match would have ended the same... He got top 16 that day at Starcity.
He could have mulliganed. He took the risk that a one land ponder hand would get himself more lands, and an opposing waste wouldn't have been a problem. It was a loose keep considering the number of wastelands floating around in todays meta. The most important thing for him to have done game two would be to combo off with enough mana floating for his bounce spells, which I hope he moved in from his sideboard. Your chalice then would have been ineffectual had the opponent been able to see what he needed to do properly. Combo players lose this matchup because they cannot focus enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Do you stll think I am misquoting you?
Actually yes, you did misquote me... Adding words to someone's quotation is called misquoting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
There is no way that you can speculate on what the player should have done considering neither of us saw his opening hand. Maybe he just needed one more card to go off that turn, who knows. And in game 2, he killed himself pretty quickly off of Ad Nauseum without seeing bounce, so leaving mana up was not the issue... You sound like an angry combo player writing in the wrong thread.
Then I apologize for misquoting you and leave it at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Of course I am an angry combo player. But I'm one that has learned to beat mchainmail despite his 7-9 card sideboard plan.
I've 2-0ed a storm player, I've beaten storm twice in tournaments, I've only lost once to a Storm player besides Matt in tournaments. But that doesn't mean it's a good matchup. All it means is most Storm players say "hey look I don't know how to beat a single hate card against me."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Matt fixed your post, you should thank him for telling you what you meant to say and not be an ass about things.
No need to start a flame war...Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
lets focus on the deck gentlemen..
I just saw this http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=42018 and am still amused.
Do you think 31 are enough lands to play this deck?
Did you play against merfolks/goblins/zoo etc without tabernacle and didnīt suffer?
Were 4 SDT not many?
I like de gameplan you are taking on the deck because I play kinda like you. I donīt want to dredge all time and want to draw-play lands for a few turns instead going crazy with manabond and dredging loam, but sometimes i feel I miss some things like more win conditions, or faster win conditions (like quimeric mass, mindslaver or factories) instead of only one. I have to say I am testing a pretty similar list but without the fourth Top, I really like that card in the deck because it simply nuts when you see EOT and decide to dredge or not, to search with E.tutor or not and find things faster, but I hate having 2 in my opening hand.
Another card I am not sure about is Meekstone. I agree itīs a good card, but having to take one hit from each creature before it takes care of them doesnīt seem happy. But I think itīs fine to have more targets for qasali pridemage and not being sold out when a singleton qasali breaks your bridge and wins.
I am now playing with the tabernacle (as 32nd land) instead of the fourth SDTop, and for now I am not unhappy with the list, because I like the gameplan, but I have a lot of doubts with the list.
Some explanation about the decreasing number of lands?
someone copied the deck wrong. -3 top, +2 fetch, +1 tabernacle. Same list as every other tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dramma