Note that this works with Grapeshot instead of Pyroclasm too, unless the opponent has 4+ hate bears in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
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Note that this works with Grapeshot instead of Pyroclasm too, unless the opponent has 4+ hate bears in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Why not? Have you even examined my posts regarding the arguments for both in the deck? In the early game they serve almost identical rolls. One in hand is almost always as good as the other. The difference is that Doomsday never fizzles, never kills you, ignores Gaddock Teeg, and lets you slow-roll control using your life total as a buffer. While you often tutor up Ad Nauseam on turn 1-2 (and sometimes even turns 3-4) as the game progresses due to the opponent actually playing magic too (and running spells like Duress, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, and misc other stuff) Doomsday because the go-to plan (even over Infernal Tutor because of Doomsday's requirement that they have at least 1 more disruption than you do without hope of you just giving them their countermagic back).Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenger
My speed Doomsday list with 4x Doomsday and 4x Street Wraith will keep up with any purely ANT fetchland-based list in goldfishing. Doomsday is only slower when you don't know how to navigate its choices. That it can slow down vs control enough to consistently challenge Dreadstill and Thrash is something I find much more valuable than making a list that can be piloted by any 13 year old with basic rules knowledge and access to an old collection. Further, the shell I designed for the hybrid is the most effective purely ANT build (remove Meditate and Doomsday and you have an optimized ANT build) in terms of beating the hard matchups (without as much as losing a step to aggro).Quote:
AdN is faster, but also easier to hate. Doomsday only builds are slower, though more consistent and play through hate much better.
The reason for this is that the minor difference in speed gained by cutting 1-2 lands down to 13 or 14 significantly affects the deck's ability to make its first two IMS drops. Your consistency is affected by doing so (you mull more for not having appropriate IMS, especially against wasteland decks), your ability to play against Daze decks is hampered, and your ability to fight prison elements (Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void) is drastically reduced.
The design decision for 4x Sensei's Tops, even without the singleton Doomsday is to improve the matchup against blue-based control (with consequences including improving the discard matchup (most Survival builds, Eva Green, Suicide Black, certain Goblins builds). SDT negates Standstill from Landstill and Dreadstill, most targetted discard, and increases the power level of Lion's Eye Diamond. It increases your effective hand size against blue control. In the mirror, Top allows you to consistently hide Orim's Chants and business from your opponent's prying Duresses. Top even has synergy with Mystical Tutor (allowing you an effective Demonic Tutor for 1U, or more likely, U on the particular turn) and Tendrils of Agony (where it combos with itself and mana to provide an additional storm engine).
Chalice only makes it harder for an AdN list to go off if the pilot is singularly focused on AdN AND they made the horrible decision to not play/board bounce/removal against a Chalice deck. Infernal Tutor -> Ill-Gotten Gains is still available for every FT list including AdN and my hybrid scoffs it off (Chalice @ 0) as it tutors up Doomsday ftw. FT lists can even loop Sensei's Tops with misc rituals and land into Mystical/Infernal/Tendrils. Chalice @ 1 is easily answerable with Infernal Tutor, LED, and Cabal Rituals. Sensei's Divining Top even gives you the potential for optimization through Chalice @ 1 if it is landed turn one.Quote:
I opted for a doomsday list since my meta has a lot of wastelands and a non negligible number of chalices. I find that I don't often have problems with chalice, either going off first, or being able to play through it. However, I would not feel comfortable playing AdN in this situation, since chalice makes it much harder for them to go off.
The only consideration for playing a faster FT list over a slower FT list is the amount of blue-based control your metagame contains. In metas with a lot of Dreadstill, Thresh, and Landstill, 16-17 land lists with 4 Doomsday are easily correct. In other metagames I would personally be hard pressed to go without a 1/1/1/1 split on Ad Nauseam/Doomsday/Ill-Gotten Gains/Meditate because of the opportunities that Doomsday allows the Ad Nauseam player in the control matchup (where you can often board out Ad Nauseam or can use it for bait/end of turn step for only 4-8) to slow-roll control. The hybrid list's ability to negate Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Runed Halo seems extremely valuable as well.
For what it's worth, my current hybrid list has been optimized to beat Counterbalance decks. It runs Duresses and Pyroblasts maindeck with Chants sided.
@ GreenOne
Nice catch! I sometimes forget about Grapeshot's ability as removal.
I have a question. For an unknown meta, what do you think the best disruption package is? Unknown meta meaning a big event like GenCon or a GP or PT.
Disruption pieces:
Pyroblast
Orim's Chant
Duress
Krosan Grip
Wipe Away
here's what I have at this point for a disruption package (SB included)
Maindeck (I run 3x Doomsday):
4x Chant
4x Duress
1x Wipe Away
Sideboard:
3x Serenity
3x Rushing River
2x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Helm
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Grapeshot
I have yet to use Helm for anything, but I'm leaving it as a sleeper for the first person in my meta to try using Meddling Mage/Cannonist/Teeg/True Believer to screw me. The IGG win condition is useful because it doesn't make you pay half of your life. This is relevant against stuff like Goyf Sligh, burn, Loam, and Thrash. Depending on how aggressive of an opening hand they get, it's even been relevant vs. Dragon Stompy (arc-slogger). Also a good point, Dragon Stompy sides in Peedle, and always names my Top. I side out 1x Doomsday and 1x Top for IT and IGG game 2 and just combo that way. Point: IGG and IT stay. Also, there's that stack I like (Tried it, awesome) with the 2x IGG and the Infernal Tutor. that is amazing.
My main question is: Is 2x Krosan Grip enough? I know game 2 against CB versions of Thresh, painter and etc. that I have 10x pieces of removal (not to mention Extirpate on whatever I Grip/Serenity), but only 5x are permanent solutions (again, Grip and Serenity).
I've come to realize just how important it is to board correctly, and am wanting to know what you guys think.
here's how I board against my more common matchups and do well:
ICHORID:
-6x Chant//Duress (I try both ways, it doesn't really matter as far as I've seen)
+2x Extirpate
+1x Echoing Truth
+3x Rushing River
You can just side out 3x Chant//Duress and not board in the RR's, but I've had the ability to bounce 2x Ichorid//Narcs back to their hand, and depending on the situation, it can slow them down enough.
Dragon Stompy:
-1x Wipe Away
-4x Chant
-2x Doomsday
-1x SDT
+3x Serenity
+3x Rushing River
+1x Infernal Tutor
+1x IGG
BURN:
-2x Doomsday
-1x SDT
-1x Ponder
+1x IGG
+1x Top
+1x Helm
+1x Grapeshot
Just wanting input on if you guys think I'm making the right decisions. I'd like to know how you sideboard against CB versions of Thresh and non-CB tempo versions of Thrash (red obviously).
So this is probably a stupid question, but wouldn't Lotus Bloom be playable? We usually win turn 3-4 so it has a good chance to increase our storm and mana count. It's probably a bad idea, but I thought I'd ask it.
Bloom is a really bad card!
It can only be good if you have it in your opening hand.
If you draw it Turn 3 or later = dead.
If you draw it with Ad N = dead.
If you go IGG = dead.
If you go DDay = dead.
Before mentioning cards as possible candidates for a list (read: this one) with extremely limited space and even more limited space for cards that aren't good the turn you play them, it would behoove you to test them first yourself. If after you have tested the card and it seems to have done something both helpful and necessary, then you might bring it up here.
In this case, it's both useless and sub-par as we have LEDs and Dark Rits, which are both strictly better and have many more applications with less draw-backs.
@ other competent storm players: Have you all dropped Bargain out of your 75? I have. It hasn't been a big deal yet, but I was wondering if it's hurt your control matchup, or screwed you over at all by not being able to produce U along with enough black mana to combo with yet/ever?
Pce,
--DC
I honestly considered this a lot of times. However, I'm not at home aka no cards here. And my MWS isn't working anymore. So no testing on my compie. And it seemed like a card that obviously would've already been tried, so I thought no bad of it to ask others if they'd had any experiences with it. I didn't expect to get a positive answer, but there might've been people "out there" that had a build with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Not being able to get 2U for Meditate when I could get all BBB for Contract has never happened to me in a real game. Not in this low acceleration build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Done it >3 months ago. Never had a problem. You miss Dark Rit -> Contract against Eva Green/Deadguy to refill your hand occasionally - but this has always been more like "oops, I'm randomly broken" instead of a reliable plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I did it quite a while ago also, I was just wondering. I rarely lose, I was wondering why we aren't a DTB/DTW...Do FDDT players not go to enough tournies? I know as a college student and father in NW Kansas (4 hours from tournaments, 2+ hours away from a single FNM), I don't go to many (2 a year, maybe?) and they are normally pre-releases and do nothing for my Legacy play. I know Emidln plays tournies sometimes...anyone else?
Pce,
--DC
I think the problem with this is, we simply aren't enough. I mean, how many FT players are out there? Also how many of these players have the opportunity to attend a tourney that is big enough to be considered for DTB/DTW? Being a poor student I can't, because I do not have the time and money to make a 200+ kilometers roadtrip.
Probably because a few FT lists and a few TES lists get misnamed as Ad Nauseum tendrils just because they contain both cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I saw almost an exact copy of emidln's hybrid-FT get labelled as ANT.
Yeah, well that whole list is basically the same thing as Non-D-Day FT anyway...Just not as versatile or controlling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgareth
If people in my general area would have legacy events, I could probably put this in the DTB section by myself. But no one around here (or anywhere close to here) plays Legacy besides me and 4x of my buddies. The others are casual players, t2 players, or straight-up retards. Not that it matters where this list is within the forums, I would just like it to get the recognition it deserves. The ichorid players around here are really starting to piss me off with all of their "We're a DTB, na-na" nonsense....Even though I beat them consistantly...:confused:
Pce,
--DC
How in the hell has this forum let this deck die?
Me and the team are in it for one last hoorah at Game Empire's winter wonderland, and I have the choice between this and ANT...
Here is the list that I was thinking about rocking:
lands//16
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 scrubland
1 tundra
2 underground sea
rituals//11
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
1 lotus petal
set up//17
4 mystical tutpr
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
3 ponder
1 meditate
1 cruel bargain
protection//9
4 duress
4 orim's chant
1 wipe away
meat//7
1 tendrils of agony
1 ill-gotten gains
2 infernal tutor
3 doomsday
sideboard//
1 grapeshot
1 helm of awakening
2 extirpate
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river
4 serenity
2 ad nauseum
3 meddling mage (he has helped me out a lot in the past)...
My ANT is just a standard build, it goldfishes faster, but at times it feels less consistent and less protected (although it does run about the same amount of protection spells usually, it has fewer cantrips).
Tips and advise would be great!
I don't believe this deck should be played over the AN/DD FT stuff that's being discussed in the ANT thread. I switched to 2 AN and 1 DD and haven't looked back since, mostly because protected wins seem to be as consistent and fast, but the goldfish is notably faster (while also easier). Being familiar with DD FT only helps you when piloting the hybrid: you will easily identify situations that are easier to win with DD than with either AN or IGG.
Also, http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22005
Wow...only 4x MD'ed pieces of hate in that list, and absolutely no chants. I've never cut chant completely out even if it means 2x in the SB...I wonder how well that works.
Pce,
--DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I don't understand why you guys keep playing doomsday, especially when they printed AN which is a broken card for combo. I don't think there is any reason to play doomsday because the only thing that card does is slows the deck down by playing SDT in combo.
This deck would be way more consistent if the slots for the SDT/Doomsday would be used for additional rituals/tutors/protection.
Doomsday is an alternate win condition that does not rely on the graveyard (unlike IGG). Having two paths to victory, each being completely different than one other, isn't necessarily a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
But I think everyone has moved on to the AN/DD hybrid being discussed in the ANT thread, so it's sort of a moot point in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
The arguement of haveing an alternate win condition without relying on the graveyard is not a valid arguement when Ad Nasuem was printed. Ad Nasuem is just better at winning the game, especially on turn one with all the free mana sources that the deck plays which doesn't rely on the graveyard.
IGG and Ad Nasuem are the 2 paths you should look at when playing storm combo. I don't think Doomsday should even be considered as a viable option.
I don't quite understand why you're still trolling this thread, but I'm bored at work so I'll bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Doomsday is a guaranteed win from 2 life. Ad Nauseam has serious issues with going into the 10-15 life category, let along something lower. Powering out protected wins doesn't happen all that often against Dreadstill/CB with Ad Nauseam because they have more disruption than you have protection+answers early (anywhere from 11 to 16 disruption online from the first turn and have CB available from turn 2 (meaning all they have to do is stall you until turn 2 when you effectively lose)). This might not seem like a big issue to you, but I'm not lucky enough to play in a metagame where people don't play Dreadstill and CB Thresh. To take out the power of Spell Snare and Daze you largely need to slow down and make land drops. They're not in a position to kill you early (barring Dreadstill hanging its balls out against KGrip/Wipe Away/Ancient Grudge with Dreadnought) so you can use your life total as a buffer while you hit those land drops where you can play disruption that ignores cards not named Counterbalance, Counterspell, and Force of Will. (As an aside, because beating CB is so important, I switched to play 4-5 red blasts main in my current list along Duress and sometimes Chant.)
Ad Nauseam is a fine card, but its very nature requires you to win early. Against decks packing as much disruption and manipulation as modern blue-based aggro-control (4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 4 Spell Snare, 4 Brainstorm), that isn't possible to do consistently. As such, I've been experimenting with builds that play Ad Nauseam and Doomsday either together in a hybrid or with Doomsday maindeck and Ad Nauseam + extra accel in the sideboard (seeing as I don't actually need all 15 cards because I come preboarded vs control) for the aggro matchups.
I also can't think of a Tendrils build I've seen in Legacy that has played as much or more protection maindeck as my red builds of Doomsday (4 Duress, 4 Pyroblast, 1-2 Chant, 0-1 Ancient Grudge/ETruth, 1 KGrip).