All B/R update speculation.

The new card is not time walk. People need to really get this. There are countless examples of how this is so.

Basically, Time walk can be used the turn in which you have access to it, the new card goes off next turn assuming that you can set it up.

The value of being able to take an additional turn imediately is much higher than being able to take one after your next turn. Even though there are many set up cards that can be used to get additional turns with the new card, it is still a multiple card combination instead of a one card combination. In the end, the new card looks the part of a format defining card, but it will probably not be nearly as good as it seems. My bet is that Wizards did thier homework here and that this card is no Delver of Secrets.

The new wheel of fortune could see some real play because its non miracle cost is pretty reasonable for a belcher or SI build, but that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

The new card is not time walk. People need to really get this. There are countless examples of how this is so.

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- No there aren't. There are, however, countless examples like yours that state TM is not Time Walk just because of a couple hoops.

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Basically, Time walk can be used the turn in which you have access to it, the new card goes off next turn assuming that you can set it up.

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Temporal Mastery can be used at instant speed. The argument that the card needs some "set up" is a poor one as there are plenty of cards that need some setup to get the most out of them and they are banned (SoTF, Worldgorger Dragon, Goblin Recruiter).

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The value of being able to take an additional turn imediately is much higher than being able to take one after your next turn. Even though there are many set up cards that can be used to get additional turns with the new card, it is still a multiple card combination instead of a one card combination. In the end, the new card looks the part of a format defining card, but it will probably not be nearly as good as it seems. My bet is that Wizards did thier homework here and that this card is no Delver of Secrets.

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- Except that in some situations, it's BETTER than time walk, with those situations being that the player with TM is playing blue and SDT.

So, you think this card is that good. How about a bet. 6 month window. If the card is banned I'll give you an underground sea. If it remains unbanned, then I'll take an equivilant value card from you. I am willing to accept these terms, are you?

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

So, you think this card is that good.

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- I think it's good and ban worthy.

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How about a bet. 6 month window. If the card is banned I'll give you an underground sea. If it remains unbanned, then I'll take an equivilant value card from you. I am willing to accept these terms, are you?

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- Why would I bet $120 with some stranger on a random website about a card being banned when there is no way to verify you'll even uphold your end of the deal? And even if you did, why would I uphold my end? Why would I even agree to such stupid terms to behind with*?

(rhetorical question)

We can arrange it with a trusted third party somewhere else, PM me if you are willing.

I have made my case. You disagree. You have made your case. I diagree. There is nothing more to do than wait and see. I am willing to put something behind my opinion which is more than words. Are you?

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

We can arrange it with a trusted third party somewhere else, PM me if you are willing.

I have made my case. You disagree. You have made your case. I diagree. There is nothing more to do than wait and see. I am willing to put something behind my opinion which is more than words. Are you?

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http://izit.org/sites/izit.org/files/u4/129156.jpeg

I can see you are not interested in my offer, which was and remains sincere. Either way, I will post that I was right on October 17th.

I have no more to say on this issue

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I tried playing Mind's Desire this whole week in various High Tide builds. It was inferior to Time Spiral in every way.

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I don't know, it just sounds totally ridiculous in Spiral Tide (in combination with Time Spiral, not as a replacement). I didn't do any testing though, so you might be right.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

The new card is not time walk. People need to really get this. There are countless examples of how this is so.

Basically, Time walk can be used the turn in which you have access to it, the new card goes off next turn assuming that you can set it up.

The value of being able to take an additional turn imediately is much higher than being able to take one after your next turn. Even though there are many set up cards that can be used to get additional turns with the new card, it is still a multiple card combination instead of a one card combination. In the end, the new card looks the part of a format defining card, but it will probably not be nearly as good as it seems. My bet is that Wizards did thier homework here and that this card is no Delver of Secrets.

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You do get the extra turn immediately (unless you actually draw the card when you topdeck it instead of casting it), it's just that you aren't allowed to decide when to take it. It's not a Time Walk by any means, it's just probably the biggest tempo advantage that you can cast in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Temporal Mastery can be used at instant speed. The argument that the card needs some "set up" is a poor one as there are plenty of cards that need some setup to get the most out of them and they are banned (SoTF, Worldgorger Dragon, Goblin Recruiter).

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Survival of the Fittest does not require setup. It requires you to have one creature in hand in a deck that probably runs 20+ then it enables your entire deck.
How does Goblin Recruiter require setup? It stacks your entire deck for 2 mana. I don't even know what you are talking about. What setup is required? 2 lands in play?
Worldgorger Dragon is a combo peice, not a utility card. It requires setup but it also either wins or draws the game instantly with an Animate Dead. Taking an extra turn does not automatically end the game.

There's an easy way for one side to end this debate. Show me the decklists. I have yet to see one that doesn't suck. I'm willing to concede it is possible this card will be broken I just don't think it's very likely. I'm very open to changing my mind though the second I see a single shred of evidence that Mastery is going to break the format wide open. It's impossible for us to prove the card is not broke, but a single decklist could easily prove it is broken. Where is this decklist?

Do you think a person with a decklist able to rape a legacy tournament is going to post it here for all people to see just so you can say if you agree with the card being too good or not?

Keep dreaming.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Do you think a person with a decklist able to rape a legacy tournament is going to post it here for all people to see just so you can say if you agree with the card being too good or not?

Keep dreaming.

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This is exactly what people (myself included) did during the Flash debacle, because there was a real call to have it banned before the tournament and people wanted to make their case.

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Originally Posted by caiomarcos

Desire was actually a preemptive ban, it was banned before being released.

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Not quite. Scourge was released May 17. The banning/restriction was announced June 1. So it was banned/restricted two weeks after its release. It can still be considered preemptive, though, as it really had no chance to have an impact during that time period.

Though as I said in another topic, I do wonder if it would have been banned in Legacy had, at the time, Legacy existed as its own separate entity. Back then it was Type 1.5, which was just "Type 1 (Vintage), but everything restricted is banned instead" and thus its restriction in Vintage automatically meant banning in Legacy, which would not be true nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Not quite. Scourge was released May 17. The banning/restriction was announced June 1. So it was banned/restricted two weeks after its release. It can still be considered preemptive, though, as it really had no chance to have an impact during that time period.

Though as I said in another topic, I do wonder if it would have been banned in Legacy had, at the time, Legacy existed as its own separate entity. Back then it was Type 1.5, which was just "Type 1 (Vintage), but everything restricted is banned instead" and thus its restriction in Vintage automatically meant banning in Legacy, which would not be true nowadays.

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Back in the day sets didn't become legal the day they were officially released. If I remember correctly there was a 2 week lag from release to legality, which would coincide with Mind's Desire entering Vintage banned.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Do you think a person with a decklist able to rape a legacy tournament is going to post it here for all people to see just so you can say if you agree with the card being too good or not?

Keep dreaming.

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Keep Dreaming? LOL, I love getting a talking down to from the only Legacy player to ever call for the banning of Force of Will. The real answer is that if Temporal Mastery was a broken as is claimed we probably would have seen a list by now.

How about this then, does anyone actually have a list where Temporal Mastery is broken that they aren't sharing because they plan to win an event with it?

I'm not siding with DrJones on this (I mean come on, FoW banned? What is this, ban all cantrips along with it ala Modern?) but just to prove a point, the Survival Vengevine strategy was shut downed and laughed at here at the Source before it took over the format post GP: Columbus.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Survival of the Fittest does not require setup. It requires you to have one creature in hand in a deck that probably runs 20+ then it enables your entire deck.

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- It also requires you to have specific creatures to abuse it (Rootwalla, Vengevine, etc). SotF in an burn deck is crap. SotF in an elf deck is game-breakingly overpowered.

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How does Goblin Recruiter require setup? It stacks your entire deck for 2 mana. I don't even know what you are talking about. What setup is required? 2 lands in play?

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- You need a Goblin deck designed around it. It can't just be thrown in any deck. You also need to stack Goblins in the correct order. Mindlessly stacking goblins will result in failure.

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Worldgorger Dragon is a combo peice, not a utility card. It requires setup but

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- You admitted as least one the cards I listed requires setup, which was the entire point of listing those cards.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I'm not siding with DrJones on this (I mean come on, FoW banned? What is this, ban all cantrips along with it ala Modern?) but just to prove a point, the Survival Vengevine strategy was shut downed and laughed at here at the Source before it took over the format post GP: Columbus.

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Yep...

It doesn't matter if someone DID post a deck list dontbiteitholmes. In fact, there is not a single deck list anyone could post. You have already made up your mind. Short of WotC banning the card before the set is even legal, you'll always believe it not ban worthy. So, don't pretend you're clever by asking for a deck list.

Honestly, the only thing we could agree on is that we disagree. Not that it matters: once the card is legal, we'll quickly find out how good/bad Temporal Mastery is.

Cross-posting this from the other thread.

Did some shitty, half-assed testing of Time Walk 2.0, and I have to revise my original opinion. The card isn't broken. Hell, I'm not even sure if it's great, as I really don't have much real experience at the helm of U/R Delver or Blue Tempo decks.

However, this card is so fucking annoying to play against. So if it does become a fixture, even a minor one, in the metagame, people will be screaming for a ban. The card allows you to break certain stalemates wide open and turn some losing situations around. An extra attack step, more time to beef up board presence, extra walker activations...it can be powerful. How often? Not sure, but boy does it stick in your mind as total shit.

Compounding on the swinginess factor is the ever-present Blue Issue; this is a Blue card that does bullshit things and can only be effectively fought through Blue means (mill, counterspells, Stifle). If this was a targeted effect, and other colors could theoretically do something, it might mitigate hate for this card. But since it doesn't target, and Blue means are the only way to really stop it, it's going to catch a lot of flak.

I don't think this is going to be broken anymore, but man do I hate this card and wish it wasn't printed. Overly swingy effects are some of my least favorite things to play/play against in Magic, and lately Wizards has been injecting a ton of them into Legacy, mostly through absurd fatties, but also through mechanics like Miracle. Not something I'm a fan of, because I don't have the resources nor drive/skill to adopt the detached, uber-pro mindset.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Not quite. Scourge was released May 17. The banning/restriction was announced June 1. So it was banned/restricted two weeks after its release. It can still be considered preemptive, though, as it really had no chance to have an impact during that time period.

Though as I said in another topic, I do wonder if it would have been banned in Legacy had, at the time, Legacy existed as its own separate entity. Back then it was Type 1.5, which was just "Type 1 (Vintage), but everything restricted is banned instead" and thus its restriction in Vintage automatically meant banning in Legacy, which would not be true nowadays.

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Remember also that back then, there was a two week delay between a set's release and its legality for tournament play. I'd have to dig up a calendar, but I don't think there were even actual Vintage tournaments in which Mind's Desire could be legally played.

I don't care how irrational it is, ban Insectile Abherration. Card seriously needs to fucking go take a hike.

I'm still tweaking the list, but I won like 20 games in a row on the first turn with Reforge the Soul. A few fizzles, and a few bad mulligans aside, this card is a savage engine. Fuck the Miracle aspect of it, thats irrelevant; they printed a new storm engine that allows you to abuse red ritual acceleration.

Granted, its a glass house but I think the lists people are coming up with can be tweaked to be faster than even PSI. Does 80% turn 1 kills sound pleasant to you? And I don't mean 80% lol I have a bunch of goblins and win turn 3. I honestly don't know what WotC was thinking with this one. Do they have a ban for something planned? LED perhaps?

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I'm not siding with DrJones on this (I mean come on, FoW banned? What is this, ban all cantrips along with it ala Modern?) but just to prove a point, the Survival Vengevine strategy was shut downed and laughed at here at the Source before it took over the format post GP: Columbus.

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Was it? I remember it being largely ignored, but I don't remember an overwhelming objection to it.

Also if you want to talk about peoples initial impressions of cards being wrong we have hundreds of examples on both sides. It wasn't but the last set when Grafdigger's Cage was preordering for $35 and people were claiming Dredge would be ruined. So that doesn't really prove anything that people have been wrong in the past. Everyone has evaluated a card incorrectly at one time or another but that door swings both ways.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- It also requires you to have specific creatures to abuse it (Rootwalla, Vengevine, etc). SotF in an burn deck is crap. SotF in an elf deck is game-breakingly overpowered.

- You need a Goblin deck designed around it. It can't just be thrown in any deck. You also need to stack Goblins in the correct order. Mindlessly stacking goblins will result in failure.

- You admitted as least one the cards I listed requires setup, which was the entire point of listing those cards.

Yep...

It doesn't matter if someone DID post a deck list dontbiteitholmes. In fact, there is not a single deck list anyone could post. You have already made up your mind. Short of WotC banning the card before the set is even legal, you'll always believe it not ban worthy. So, don't pretend you're clever by asking for a deck list.

Honestly, the only thing we could agree on is that we disagree. Not that it matters: once the card is legal, we'll quickly find out how good/bad Temporal Mastery is.

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How many times have I said I'm not 100% certain it's not broken I just have yet to see evidence that it is and personally I don't think it will be. Seriously, look at my other posts. I tested it and found it lacking far more often then it was "OMG broken" but I'm only one person. If over 1/3 of the people here feel it's broken I want to know what they know that I don't. What other measure is there of a Legacy card except the decks it goes in? I see a lot of people here spitting out reasons Mastery is so much like Time Walk but where are the lists? I had a lot of trouble making this card even half descent and I get the impression other people are having a similar problem.

Your arguments about Survival, Worldgorger, and Recruiter have nothing to do with the matter at hand. Those are all combo cards that can quickly and powerfully end the game from a losing board position at any point in the game + I don't really follow your reasoning on why Recruiter requires setup when it's all creatures you would be running anyway and there is absolutely zero downside ever of playing Recruiter in Goblins. Apples and oranges anyways though enough of that.

Its a little unreal what TES can do with Reforge the Soul. They could Burning Wish for 1R for Reforge the Soul, then hide it on top of their Library with Brainstorm for U. Thats a 2 card investment with 1UR to go off drawing 7 cards on the following turn provided you have 2 perpetual manasources that tap for R. Thats not asking a lot from TES. Its definitely going to be the occassionally Burning Wish target when you need to 'oh shit' button into a new 7, but the setup applications scare me more. It means TES has yet another line of play that lets them recover from a failed attempt with a relatively low investment.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I'm still tweaking the list, but I won like 20 games in a row on the first turn with Reforge the Soul. A few fizzles, and a few bad mulligans aside, this card is a savage engine. Fuck the Miracle aspect of it, thats irrelevant; they printed a new storm engine that allows you to abuse red ritual acceleration.

Granted, its a glass house but I think the lists people are coming up with can be tweaked to be faster than even PSI. Does 80% turn 1 kills sound pleasant to you? And I don't mean 80% lol I have a bunch of goblins and win turn 3. I honestly don't know what WotC was thinking with this one. Do they have a ban for something planned? LED perhaps?

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They learned with Necro don't ban the supporting cast, ban the damn card already. If Reforge the Soul is really that broken (And i think it might be) then it will get the axe, not LED or rituals etc.

This whole set is stupid on multiple levels. It reminds me of powered-up versions of all the obnoxiously good cards from Mirage, Tempest, and Urza's Saga blocks. I wouldn't be surprised if they have to ban something (or multiple somethings) in every major format.

The thing with Reforge though is that if its in a glasshouse that just chains them together, it will only 1up decks that don't play Force because any deck that does is just going to draw into it after the first or 2nd D7. The deck needs some form of protection and that dilutes the turn 1 kills.

I honestly don't think anything is going to get banned though. We think these cards are overpowered because they look juicy with Miracle costs at 1X. I think WotC has tested these cards thoroughly enough to know just how good each one is going to be.

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Originally Posted by Koby

I don't care how irrational it is, ban Insectile Abherration. Card seriously needs to fucking go take a hike.

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If this entire block were wiped from existence, I'm pretty sure it'd be a net positive for the format.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

If this entire block were wiped from existence, I'm pretty sure it'd be a net positive for the format.

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+1 The new un-killable non-interactive angel is already pissing me off. Let alone the aberration.

Can we have Misstep unbanned now? it reduces the crazyness with Brainstorm/Miracle and creatures can be save now with Caverns of Soul

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

The new un-killable non-interactive angel is already pissing me off. Let alone the aberration.

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Avacyn is hardly unkillable and she's probably not going to have much if any impact on the format.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Avacyn is hardly unkillable and she's probably not going to have much if any impact on the format.

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I think they are pertaining to the WG Hexproof, No sacrificing allowed 5/5 Angel.

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

I think they are pertaining to the WG Hexproof, No sacrificing allowed 5/5 Angel.

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Ah, that makes more sense. Guess it's another reason for me to sideboard Phantasmal Image.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Its a little unreal what TES can do with Reforge the Soul. They could Burning Wish for 1R for Reforge the Soul, then hide it on top of their Library with Brainstorm for U. Thats a 2 card investment with 1UR to go off drawing 7 cards on the following turn provided you have 2 perpetual manasources that tap for R. Thats not asking a lot from TES. Its definitely going to be the occassionally Burning Wish target when you need to 'oh shit' button into a new 7, but the setup applications scare me more. It means TES has yet another line of play that lets them recover from a failed attempt with a relatively low investment.

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Obviously you Never played TES or any storm combo. You realize that you play LED to power spells post-tutor? With your scenario you need 1UR + Wish + Brainstorm + another turn + 1R in upkeep. I cannot believe you seriously consider this. This has no advantage over Diminishing Returns.

What the fuck... I play storm combo as my decks of choice. I play Pact Spanish Inquisition and Solidarity. I frequently play TES on cockatrice and would play it regularly IRL if I had the Underground Seas. I've been playing storm combo for 6 years, for the record.. probably longer than you buddy.

There are certainly scenarios where this could be applicable. This is an example scenario.

To quote the part of my post that you clearly didn't read:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

It means TES has yet another line of play that lets them recover from a failed attempt with a relatively low investment.

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In play:
Gemstone Mine
Chrome Mox (RED)
Lotus Petal

Turn 1 on the draw, you cast Chrome Mox imprinting a red card, play Gemstone Mine, and Lotus Petal (to play around Daze) and tried to cast Ad Nauseam with a Rite of Flame and a Dark Ritual. Your opponent has Force of Will. You pass the turn with Brainstorm in hand as your only card. On the following turn you draw for the turn, and its a Burning Wish. You wish for Reforge the Soul and Brainstorm to put it on top of your library. You go off and draw 7 cards during the upkeep of the following turn.

Granted, you could wait to go off but say your opponent casts a turn 1 Delver, flipped next turn, followed by a Chain Lightning and a Vexing Devil. You might not have the turns you think you have against URx Tempo to just reassemble a combo turn that involves, rituals, LED, and a tutor.

I'd say it has an application over Diminishing Returns. Diminishing Returns requires you have a LED after Burning Wish. You don't always have a LED nor time to wait or cantrip into one.

Somehow everybody seems to think youre the only one who draws 7. The opp gets a full hand with force and/or daze too. Let alone Mindbreak Trap or Extracion
So without Chanteffects or Defense Grid the deck loses more to blue than Belcher.

Sure but its effect is congruent to Diminishing Returns and TES already plays that as an 'oh shit' button. It doesn't change much except now TES doesn't necessarily need LED to go to that line of play if it really needs to, given that Reforge is an much more forgiving RR rather than Diminishing Returns UU.

In the play above, you're pretty much fucked anyway. You have 3 mana sources. If you Brainstorm first... unless that card is LED and then you stack it so you can topdeck Rite of Flame or Dark Ritual... I don't see how you could win if the opponent is threatening a very fast clock. Its just a low investment 'oh shit' button play. It requires 2 perpetual mana sources, an IMS like Lotus Petal, 2 cards, and its a pass the turn play.

EDIT:
Also, its worth noting that you could well draw Chant in the 7 you draw off your Reforge the Souls.

The Point is that this play REQUIRE Brainstorm and passing a turn! Your opponent See this coming from miles ahead and can sculpt his hand.

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Originally Posted by Koby

I don't care how irrational it is, ban Insectile Abherration. Card seriously needs to fucking go take a hike.

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Now if only they would ban cards for taking a giant fucking shit on the color pie then we'd be in business.

So, if you decide to go for it with TES against a player who might have a force of will and you have no protection at all you're taking a huge leap of faith. Sure, everything could just go well and you win, but if it doesn't work out, it won't be pretty. You've just played out your acceleration cards to cast ADN and it gets countered. Then you have to get burning wish and brainstorm together for this to work out, and even then if you draw brainstorm you'd most likely just play it out instead of hoping for burning wish.

To me Reforge the Soul seems to take a lot of setting up and then you can still just get your shit countered unless you also draw chant effect and play one in upkeep or rip a duress also to play the turn before reforging. Even then your opponent will get a new 7 besides you, and with your mana tapped etc. it'll be really hard to go off on the same turn I think.

I either need to see it in action to believe, or the deck should be changed drastically instead of just adding it into a currently existing decklist.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

How many times have I said I'm not 100% certain it's not broken I just have yet to see evidence that it is and personally I don't think it will be.

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- You're coming off as not wanting to believe otherwise despite what you claim. Just sayin.

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Seriously, look at my other posts. I tested it and found it lacking far more often then it was "OMG broken" but I'm only one person. If over 1/3 of the people here feel it's broken I want to know what they know that I don't. What other measure is there of a Legacy card except the decks it goes in? I see a lot of people here spitting out reasons Mastery is so much like Time Walk but where are the lists? I had a lot of trouble making this card even half descent and I get the impression other people are having a similar problem.

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- Like I said, your mind is made up. Discussing it further won't convince you. Seriously, look at MY other posts. I've posted plenty of arguments, but you claimed to have "tested it". You've made up your mind: arguing further is a waste of both of our time.

Look at Vacrix and a couple other people. They're all convinced of their own positions, but I guarantee you none of them will budge until tournament results show up. People are hilariously (more) stubborn on the Internet.

Agree to disagree because that's all we are going to agree on.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Now if only they would ban cards for taking a giant fucking shit on the color pie then we'd be in business.

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The unintentional irony of making this complant in LEGACY - the format for those who love still playing with Dark Ritual and Red Elemental Blast and Sylvan Library - is difficult to overstate.