[Deck] GW/x Maverick

Thanks alot Xile, your comments are immensely helpfull. I will spend some time digesting them and make changes.

The Jitte plan was thought mainly as a way of tempoing out the mirror. It is admittedly quite experimemental (read: Possibly quite bad), your thought about a second witness is also interesting although i think it will be too clunky.

On a different note i am really not a fan of the blue splash. The only blue cards i really want in this deck are jace and submerge and the list is already pretty tight.

Geist is an agressive non plowable creature in a deck full of plowable stuff that wants to play board control. Rhox does not solve a problem you can't solve with batterskul+ proper enlightened tutoring.

My friend asked for some tips with this deck, I thought I'd share with the whole class.

key to playing the deck:
1. fetch basics
1a. if they don't run wastes, dual it up
1b. Submerge is a real card
2. get to 3-4 mana as priority #1
2a. this allows you to start pumping out knights/gsz->knight/sfm equips
3. Knight for wastes if they don't have a threat and you can prevent them from casting their spells
3a. don't do this vs Tempo they only need 2 lands)
3b. cut off red sources against tempo
3c. prevent 4 mana from stoneblade (jace) if possible
4. Ooze is the shit - he's your mid-game bomb vs a lot o stuff
5. your life total doesn't really matter unless it's against Red or flyers
6. learn to use scryb ranger judiciously
6a. don't walk into removal when you activate her without an active mom
6b. don't activate her when mom's tapped, that's when removal happens
7. jitte is doing to be doing a lot of heavy duty in any creature matchup
8. witnessing back Stp or wasteland is perfectly legitimate play
9. board out 2 nobles vs Mass removal decks (wrath, deed)
10. Mom sucks against affinity (duh)
11. pridemage sucks against RUG tempo, but you may want 1-2 against Mind Harness
12. SUBMERGE and MASSACRE exist, try to play carefully when those become a factor; also see (1b).
13. stp'ing Delver on turn 1 is a fine play, but don't walk it into a Daze.
14. mulligan to relevant hands against known decks (stp usually)
15. some hands with dryad arbor are keepable. they should not rely on GSZ -> arbor
15a. hands with 5 lands are NOT keepable (no gas)

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Originally Posted by rukcus

My friend asked for some tips with this deck, I thought I'd share with the whole class.

key to playing the deck:
1. fetch basics
1a. if they don't run wastes, dual it up
1b. Submerge is a real card
2. get to 3-4 mana as priority #1
2a. this allows you to start pumping out knights/gsz->knight/sfm equips
3. Knight for wastes if they don't have a threat and you can prevent them from casting their spells
3a. don't do this vs Tempo they only need 2 lands)
3b. cut off red sources against tempo
3c. prevent 4 mana from stoneblade (jace) if possible
4. Ooze is the shit - he's your mid-game bomb vs a lot o stuff
5. your life total doesn't really matter unless it's against Red or flyers
6. learn to use scryb ranger judiciously
6a. don't walk into removal when you activate her without an active mom
6b. don't activate her when mom's tapped, that's when removal happens
7. jitte is doing to be doing a lot of heavy duty in any creature matchup
8. witnessing back Stp or wasteland is perfectly legitimate play
9. board out 2 nobles vs Mass removal decks (wrath, deed)
10. Mom sucks against affinity (duh)
11. pridemage sucks against RUG tempo, but you may want 1-2 against Mind Harness
12. SUBMERGE and MASSACRE exist, try to play carefully when those become a factor; also see (1b).
12a. HIBERNATION can screw you over.
13. stp'ing Delver on turn 1 is a fine play, but don't walk it into a Daze.
14. mulligan to relevant hands against known decks (stp usually)
15. some hands with dryad arbor are keepable. they should not rely on GSZ -> arbor
15a. hands with 5 lands are NOT keepable (no gas)

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Coming back from a night of testing the burn matchup and all I can say is it is still terrible preboard. Jitte is literally the only hope I feel and sometimes it still doesn't get there. Both Batterskull and Rhox War Monk were too slow and Thalia only really slows them down if they do not have a bolt or chain for her. In all the burn matches I played around the price to progress by fetching up my three basics firsts and only running out maybe one nonbasic unless they were wastelands. Any tips on this matchup for games 1?

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Originally Posted by Fade

Coming back from a night of testing the burn matchup and all I can say is it is still terrible preboard. Jitte is literally the only hope I feel and sometimes it still doesn't get there. Both Batterskull and Rhox War Monk were too slow and Thalia only really slows them down if they do not have a bolt or chain for her. In all the burn matches I played around the price to progress by fetching up my three basics firsts and only running out maybe one nonbasic unless they were wastelands. Any tips on this matchup for games 1?

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Don't be afraid to Swords to Plowshares your own guys.

Oh ya, found another one - don't board out Scryb Ranger against Price of Progress. (GSZ for 2... oooops)

Also, Gaddock Teeg prevents Fireblast.

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Originally Posted by Fade

Coming back from a night of testing the burn matchup and all I can say is it is still terrible preboard. Jitte is literally the only hope I feel and sometimes it still doesn't get there. Both Batterskull and Rhox War Monk were too slow and Thalia only really slows them down if they do not have a bolt or chain for her. In all the burn matches I played around the price to progress by fetching up my three basics firsts and only running out maybe one nonbasic unless they were wastelands. Any tips on this matchup for games 1?

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Have you tested Kitchen Finks? I haven't, but this could be slightly speedbump vs Burn.

I want to add about mirrors:
don't search library when opponent passes turn with 2 lands and hierarch untapped.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Don't be afraid to Swords to Plowshares your own guys.

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I wasn't. I had to get rid of an Ooze and Teeg at one point in the game leaving just a noble on board.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Have you tested Kitchen Finks? I haven't, but this could be slightly speedbump vs Burn.

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I haven't personally tested it but he seems like the best option right now. Gains 2 life and blocks/kills one of their guys then gains us 2 more life and can still chump. The guy is even a nice trick for the black pox deck running around.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Also, Gaddock Teeg prevents Fireblast.

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It seems to always be able to shut down at least one card in every deck which makes me think it might deserve a md slot but I was never impressed when I drew it during game 1 and recently tried him in the side.

Imo the most important thing to remember vs burn is to keep wasteland(s) untapped as soon as possible in the game, otherwise PoP can really fuck us over. In the same spirit, start by fetching some basics if possible. I really like the tutor + worship tech for G2/3.

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Imo the most important thing to remember vs burn is to keep wasteland(s) untapped as soon as possible in the game, otherwise PoP can really fuck us over. In the same spirit, start by fetching some basics if possible. I really like the tutor + worship tech for G2/3.

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Out of the 20 or so games I had with burn yesterday (I made him play first about 15 times), I would just get smoked. I would always fetch up my three basics first and maybe fetch up one savannah. The only other lands I played were wastelands which rarely ever tapped in fear of the PoP. I used to run Worship in the board with tutors but sometimes you never get the four mana needed. That being said I think we need some type of enchantment against burn whether its Worship, COP:Red, or Leyline of Sancitity. It's also very hard to win when you play a competent burn player who will bolt/chain/rift bolt your noble hierarch.

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Originally Posted by Fade

Out of the 20 or so games I had with burn yesterday (I made him play first about 15 times), I would just get smoked. I would always fetch up my three basics first and maybe fetch up one savannah. The only other lands I played were wastelands which rarely ever tapped in fear of the PoP. I used to run Worship in the board with tutors but sometimes you never get the four mana needed. That being said I think we need some type of enchantment against burn whether its Worship, COP:Red, or Leyline of Sancitity. It's also very hard to win when you play a competent burn player who will bolt/chain/rift bolt your noble hierarch.

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Keep better hands.

Honestly, though, it's just a terrible matchup. Rhox doesn't help. Finks doesn't help. If they know what they're doing, you'll gain life exactly once and then they'll kill you.

The best way to deal with it is to stick a Jitte on something they can't kill and start going to town.

My plan against Burn at the Grand Prix is thus:

Dodge bullets like Neo from the Matrix.

/rant/ Why. Won't. The. Damned. Burn. Deck. Die. Already? /endrant/

EDIT: super janky really bad-tech: Burrenton Forge-tender stops PoP, recurrable with SoLS, lives to carry equipment. Probably only good in D&T however.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Honestly, though, it's just a terrible matchup. Rhox doesn't help. Finks doesn't help. If they know what they're doing, you'll gain life exactly once and then they'll kill you.

The best way to deal with it is to stick a Jitte on something they can't kill and start going to town.

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I agree in the games where I did win it was always on the back of jitte with the help of a scavenging ooze sometimes. As long as the burn player draws into nothing, scavenging ooze is sometimes good enough.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

My plan against Burn at the Grand Prix is thus:

Dodge bullets like Neo from the Matrix.

/rant/ Why. Won't. The. Damned. Burn. Deck. Die. Already? /endrant/

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Yea I don't even know if it's worth having a slot devoted strictly to burn at the GP as it would only marginally increase our chances with 3 extra relevant cards against them. Even after board they can smash our Jitte which is half of our plan.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Keep better hands.
Honestly, though, it's just a terrible matchup. Rhox doesn't help. Finks doesn't help. If they know what they're doing, you'll gain life exactly once and then they'll kill you.

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I agree that finks and rhox are not the "BEST" answer you colud have against burn, but they definetly help. And the reason i run both rhox and finks is not to beat burn especifically, they're great in plenty of other MU. Finks are good against zoo, canadian thresh, sweepers (WoG, perish, virtue's ruin), and obviously burn. This is the definition of a good sideboard card.

If you ask me, burn has the inevitability unless we play cards like worship or some other janky sideboard cards that are really narrow. My thought for a plan would be that I want to beat the burn player to death before he burns me, and if I get him to play defensive and spend more and more burn to my creatures, it allows me to live longer and therefore hopefully - win the game.

By approaching the matchup this way I would imagine that Geist of Saint Traft would be pretty neat. If you get him online on turn 2, you'll start hitting 6-7+ a turn. My -another pet card- another suggestion would be Rafiq of the Many. ...and maybe Shorecrasher Mimic..? Well, that's far fetched and it won't work for sure without turning the deck into bantfish something.

I have to admit that I'm limited to knowing cards really well only from morningtide and forward, but I'd imagine that you guys might have some cards in mind which could back up this plan. Maverick usually has the inevitability in the games that it plays but I don't see any way how to guarantee this inevitability against burn.

Vengevine(s) could also work, they're neat against control also, but might not be good enough never the less.

Is the burn matchup really that bad that people are jumping through all kinds of hoops to play terrible cards to improve that matchup?

How about keep it simple with cards that aren't dead against the rest of the field? Run at least a 1-of Tarmogoyf again, giving you a total of 5 fatties that don't die to a Bolt while serving as a nice wall against their bad creatures, plus four Zeniths to fetch them. Slap a Jitte on them and ride to victory. If you can't find a fatty quickly enough, use plan B (Batterskull) and pray. If the game goes late, fetching up an Ooze is usually good game.

Sure, you'll still lose to some burn nutdraws when you keep a slow hand and you don't autowin from Enlightened Tutor into CoP: Red or Worship, or they wreck you with Smash to Smithereens, but I'd much rather run good cards against the rest of the field.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Is the burn matchup really that bad that people are jumping through all kinds of hoops to play terrible cards to improve that matchup?

How about keep it simple with cards that aren't dead against the rest of the field? Run at least a 1-of Tarmogoyf again, giving you a total of 5 fatties that don't die to a Bolt while serving as a nice wall against their bad creatures, plus four Zeniths to fetch them. Slap a Jitte on them and ride to victory. If you can't find a fatty quickly enough, use plan B (Batterskull) and pray. If the game goes late, fetching up an Ooze is usually good game.

Sure, you'll still lose to some burn nutdraws when you keep a slow hand and you don't autowin from Enlightened Tutor into CoP: Red or Worship, or they wreck you with Smash to Smithereens, but I'd much rather run good cards against the rest of the field.

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Having a Goyf in the deck would not improve the matchup. the only creatures burn cares about are Noble Hierarch and dryad to slow us down enough and keep us from landing a creature. Goyf would still come down on turn 2 like all of our other creatures and at that point he is too small and would just get bolted.

I want to take a step back and think about Maverick going forward. I believe part of the reason why Maverick is so good in this metagame is in no part due to Stoneblade's popularity. Being that Stoneblade essentially became a Standard deck to Legacy deck overnight has something to do with the success Maverick has achieved in the time since SFM and Jace got the ban hammer in July.

Should the trend remain, then Maverick is well positioned to continue succeeding. However, if Stoneblade and RUG tempo start to become inbred and lose their edge, then Maverick also stands to lose too.

Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?

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Originally Posted by Fade

Having a Goyf in the deck would not improve the matchup. the only creatures burn cares about are Noble Hierarch and dryad to slow us down enough and keep us from landing a creature. Goyf would still come down on turn 2 like all of our other creatures and at that point he is too small and would just get bolted.

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Land + creature in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt or Chain.

Land + sorcery in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt, but not Chain; land + instant in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Chain, but not Bolt. It seems pretty easy to accomplish(like no work whatsoever) unless your Burn opponent is randomly boarding into Faerie Macabre.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?

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We have a major rise on LED Dredge (as expected), NicFit and a little comeback of Hightide here in Germany. MUD is still under the radar, but is putting up results.

I might say that Elves will be getting better and MUD might ascend to tier 1 or 1.5 in spite of stompy-variance.

Aggro Loam seems well positioned right now.

For Indy the SCG circuit seems like a good compass.

I'd take those with a grain of salt though, as severel factors influenced the most recent results

-> absence of pro-players due to other events (PT, GP)
-> suboptimal lists
-> and so on

Another factor definitely is wether you've got any byes.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Land + creature in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt or Chain.

Land + sorcery in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt, but not Chain; land + instant in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Chain, but not Bolt. It seems pretty easy to accomplish(like no work whatsoever) unless your Burn opponent is randomly boarding into Faerie Macabre.

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I agree but what does goyf actually do against burn? You play it on turn 2 and he becomes the big beater that smashes or against burn he typically sits back to block hellspark or keldon. On turn 3, you play stoneforge fetch jitte and play it assuming you haven't missed a land drop. By then it's turn 4 and burn has either almost won or won by that point. You don't get goyf equipped until turn 5 unless you had the nut's with a hand containing Jitte. Burn consistently wins by turn 4, sometimes on turn 3, and if they kept the slowest hand ever they still win on turn 5. This matchup is very dependent on who goes first and i would rather have a Ooze to remove their hellspark elemental, make him a 3/3, and gain a life. He also has the potential to gain more life and become bigger than a goyf in this matchup. Goyf in this match up normally will only be a 4/5 at the most (land, creature, instant, sorcery).

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Originally Posted by rukcus

I want to take a step back and think about Maverick going forward. I believe part of the reason why Maverick is so good in this metagame is in no part due to Stoneblade's popularity. Being that Stoneblade essentially became a Standard deck to Legacy deck overnight has something to do with the success Maverick has achieved in the time since SFM and Jace got the ban hammer in July.

Should the trend remain, then Maverick is well positioned to continue succeeding. However, if Stoneblade and RUG tempo start to become inbred and lose their edge, then Maverick also stands to lose too.

Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?

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I think blue will always have its place in the metagame and thus Maverick will retain it's place at the higher tiers beating those. I just can't factor the effect of continued Burn presence. I also don't know where the Storm players are with blue on the decline.

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Originally Posted by Fade

I agree but what does goyf actually do against burn? You play it on turn 2 and he becomes the big beater that smashes or against burn he typically sits back to block hellspark or keldon. On turn 3, you play stoneforge fetch jitte and play it assuming you haven't missed a land drop. By then it's turn 4 and burn has either almost won or won by that point. You don't get goyf equipped until turn 5 unless you had the nut's with a hand containing Jitte. Burn consistently wins by turn 4, sometimes on turn 3, and if they kept the slowest hand ever they still win on turn 5. This matchup is very dependent on who goes first and i would rather have a Ooze to remove their hellspark elemental, make him a 3/3, and gain a life. He also has the potential to gain more life and become bigger than a goyf in this matchup. Goyf in this match up normally will only be a 4/5 at the most (land, creature, instant, sorcery).

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My burn matchups never play out like that. If they have to spend burn spells to remove my guys, they're not directed at my dome. If I have a X/4 blocker (Goyf or Knight), then they're almost certainly not goldfishing me by turn 4 (except with the most godlike draws).

If I get a first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn Goyf or Knight (with a 4+ ass), third turn SFM into Jitte as you described, I consider myself an overwhelming favorite in the game against burn, as long as I've fetched a basic or two to play around POP. You'll lose some games but at least you're not cluttering your sideboard with crap like Aegis of Honor.

Edit: Ooze is great in this matchup too. Just not on turns 2 or 3 where Goyf would survive and Ooze would not. It's your late game bomb to gain 2-3 life the turn it comes into play (so that you can put it out of burn range) and threaten to dominate the board from there.

I don't necessarily think Tarmogoyf is good in this deck, but lordofthepit is correct about it in the burn match-up. Maverick has no guys that can just wall early on and Goyf does that. All our creatures trade when we go on defense, whereas Tarmogoyf can outlast any one of theirs.

If the burn player is burning your guys, how are you losing? The only time I ever have trouble is when I have to start playing defense with all my dorks that are x/1 and x/2 and then I just lose based on tempo because you won't get back in the game when you do that.

Oh and does anyone have premium or know the lists from Drew Levins article? The comments make them sound interesting and since they aren't his lists, but ones that actually one tournaments, I don't think SCG can stop people from posting them.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

My burn matchups never play out like that. If they have to spend burn spells to remove my guys, they're not directed at my dome. If I have a X/4 blocker (Goyf or Knight), then they're almost certainly not goldfishing me by turn 4 (except with the most godlike draws).

If I get a first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn Goyf or Knight (with a 4+ ass), third turn SFM into Jitte as you described, I consider myself an overwhelming favorite in the game against burn, as long as I've fetched a basic or two to play around POP. You'll lose some games but at least you're not cluttering your sideboard with crap like Aegis of Honor.

Edit: Ooze is great in this matchup too. Just not on turns 2 or 3 where Goyf would survive and Ooze would not. It's your late game bomb to gain 2-3 life the turn it comes into play (so that you can put it out of burn range) and threaten to dominate the board from there.

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Realistic burn starts:
Turn 1: GG - 2
Turn 2: Hellspark Elemental - 7 (if no blockers)
Turn 3: Chain Lightning, Unearth Hellspark - 15
Turn 4: Any number of their cards can kill you in any configuration.

Turn 1: Suspend Rift
Turn 2: Keldon Marauders - 4
Turn 3: Spike and Chain - 13
Turn 4: Lightning Bolt, Fireblast - Dead + 1

Throwing this out there the goyf could hypothetically block a creature to prevent some damage (if you had a fetch and they played an instant/sorcery) on turn 2 or 3 but then the burn player could just bolt the goyf to kill it if they think it's threatening (most of the time it isn't) Even if you do get two counters on Jitte a Price of Progress or a fireblast can take that 4 life away.

Conclusion: I would rather play a Ooze where the one life I could potentially gain might be the deciding factor and let my KOTR and Terravore be there to block their dudes.

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Oh and does anyone have premium or know the lists from Drew Levins article? The comments make them sound interesting and since they aren't his lists, but ones that actually one tournaments, I don't think SCG can stop people from posting them.

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He just posted the recent list that won tampa (4c 'fearless'), Gerry T's Punishing Maverick, and then a standard GW list with Thalia's and no E-tutor sideboard.

List #1 - some Euro GW maverick list with 3 Thalia
List #2 - William Cao's 4 color "Fearless" build. The inclusion of Fires/Groves was weighed against its utility (1-2 sentences)
List #3 - GerryT's list from the Invitational.

RE: Burn
I've often times used a fresh Mom to chump Keldon Mauraders. This is 100% the right play as taking 3 less damage is a big deal. Didn't win the game regardless, because Price of Progress shits on our head when we don't draw fetchlands, but that's how the game usually goes.

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Originally Posted by Jak

I don't necessarily think Tarmogoyf is good in this deck, but lordofthepit is correct about it in the burn match-up. Maverick has no guys that can just wall early on and Goyf does that. All our creatures trade when we go on defense, whereas Tarmogoyf can outlast any one of theirs.

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Don't get me wrong, I think Tarmogoyf is very overrated nowadays (except in RUG Tempo), and I don't even run it in my Maverick or Bant decks. But if I were deadset on playing Maverick, and Burn was a matchup I were worried about at an upcoming event, I would add a Goyf or two back in the main before I ate into my sideboard space, since it's also nice to have against something like RUG Tempo.

Maybe that's the misunderstanding I'm having with Fade. By no means am I under the impression that Burn can't beat a Tarmogoyf. But it improves the percentages enough that I don't consider it more than slightly unfavorable (if at all).

Now, if you're planning to take Maverick to a local shop, and your meta is flooded with burn, certainly the correct decision would be to play your 4 Leyline of Sanctity + CoP: Red in your sideboard.

How are you getting enough creatures in your graveyard fast enough to gain life from Ooze? Isn't your best case scenario turn 2 Runeclaw Bear, don't block, turn 3 Healing Salve? And even that seems unlikely.

What do you usually board out/in vs:

1) uw sfm
2) rug delver
3) dredge
4) mirror
5) burn

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Originally Posted by sauce

What do you usually board out/in vs:

1) uw sfm
2) rug delver
3) dredge
4) mirror
5) burn

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Using this sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 E-tutor
1 O-ring
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

UW Stoneblade
-2 Noble Hierarch
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-2 Sword to Plowshares
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
+1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Choke

Removing Hierarch slows you down, but also increases the threat density of the deck. This is important since more of our creatures are now going to be picked off by StP/PtE + SCM on the rebound. Stoneblade also brings in Wrath, which the mana dorks work against us by committing more to the board.

RUG Delver
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
-1 Stoneforge Mystic or Qasali #2 or Gaddock Teeg

Removing the slower threats for more removal allows us to get to the late game. They key is to dispatch Delver of Secrets before it takes us over. Submerge and Mind Harness are also considerations, which is why leaving at least 1 Pridemage in would be a good idea.

Dredge
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 E-Tutor
+2 Path to Exile
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-3 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Mother of Runes

Removal for Narco/Ichorid, extra G/Y nukers, and taking out the slower threats. Mother has limited applications, and Pridemage has no application aside from beatdown. The games you win will be with Ooze and Knight eating their yard. Watch out for Firestorm.

Burn
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-1 Terravore (if they aren't running Fetchland builds)
-1 Karakas
+2 Path to Exile (creature heavier versions)
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

Slow them down with Canonist and extra removal. Conserve your life total. Fetch basics. Save Ooze for when you can get a one or more activations before it gets insta-killed; preferably eating Hellspark Elemental. Gaddock Teeg keeps them playing fair. Scryb Ranger can help reduce the susceptibility to Price of Progress. Activating Jitte and not being exposed to Smash to Smithereens is a good strategy. StP your own guys to counter their Bolts

Mirror
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Karakas
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Batterskull

Last card really depends on being on the play or draw. I prefer to always be on the draw with this deck in the mirror for extra cards. The only relevant creatures that you need to kill are Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary. Everything else is a wash. Your life total doesn't matter, so don't bother making blocks. Don't trade Jitte with their Jitte unless you can return it with Witness. SoLS serves a role player by ignoring their Moms/Knights/removal. Don't fire off KotR -> Bog until you absolutely need to. Don't Wasteland them obliviously - use it with purpose; you'll need the extra mana. Flyers are important in this matchup. Elspeth provides necessary Jump to go for the kill. Always look out for a potential to connect with an alpha strike. Expect Maze of Ith when attacking, and be prepared for it. Don't walk into Aven Mindcensor. Be wary of untapped mana sources with no main phase play.

To All
Feel free to suggest alternatives. I may not be utilizing the SB options to their best ability.

I may have been doing it wrong but I always boarded in the chokes against RUG Delver. If it resolves about the only thing they have for it is the 1-2 Krosan Grips in the board and Dazing a spell to return an island to their hand to replay it. I board out the Elspeth, Pridemages, SoLaS, and a stoneforge to bring in Paths, Chokes, SoFaI and Maze against them.

Thalia:
For the past few days I have tested two Thalias in the main deck to see if some matches improve over others. From what I can tell, it screws up RUG Delver unless they have a quick removal spell and it improves any storm match up. Other than that I'm not sure it does anything for other decks. Does anyone else have experience with Thalia in their maindeck? How has it been for you?

and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Using this sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 E-tutor
1 O-ring
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

UW Stoneblade
-2 Noble Hierarch
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-2 Sword to Plowshares
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
+1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Choke

Removing Hierarch slows you down, but also increases the threat density of the deck. This is important since more of our creatures are now going to be picked off by StP/PtE + SCM on the rebound. Stoneblade also brings in Wrath, which the mana dorks work against us by committing more to the board.

RUG Delver
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
-1 Stoneforge Mystic or Qasali #2 or Gaddock Teeg

Removing the slower threats for more removal allows us to get to the late game. They key is to dispatch Delver of Secrets before it takes us over. Submerge and Mind Harness are also considerations, which is why leaving at least 1 Pridemage in would be a good idea.

Dredge
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 E-Tutor
+2 Path to Exile
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-3 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Mother of Runes

Removal for Narco/Ichorid, extra G/Y nukers, and taking out the slower threats. Mother has limited applications, and Pridemage has no application aside from beatdown. The games you win will be with Ooze and Knight eating their yard. Watch out for Firestorm.

Burn
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-1 Terravore (if they aren't running Fetchland builds)
-1 Karakas
+2 Path to Exile (creature heavier versions)
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

Slow them down with Canonist and extra removal. Conserve your life total. Fetch basics. Save Ooze for when you can get a one or more activations before it gets insta-killed; preferably eating Hellspark Elemental. Gaddock Teeg keeps them playing fair. Scryb Ranger can help reduce the susceptibility to Price of Progress. Activating Jitte and not being exposed to Smash to Smithereens is a good strategy. StP your own guys to counter their Bolts

Mirror
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Karakas
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Batterskull

Last card really depends on being on the play or draw. I prefer to always be on the draw with this deck in the mirror for extra cards. The only relevant creatures that you need to kill are Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary. Everything else is a wash. Your life total doesn't matter, so don't bother making blocks. Don't trade Jitte with their Jitte unless you can return it with Witness. SoLS serves a role player by ignoring their Moms/Knights/removal. Don't fire off KotR -> Bog until you absolutely need to. Don't Wasteland them obliviously - use it with purpose; you'll need the extra mana. Flyers are important in this matchup. Elspeth provides necessary Jump to go for the kill. Always look out for a potential to connect with an alpha strike. Expect Maze of Ith when attacking, and be prepared for it. Don't walk into Aven Mindcensor. Be wary of untapped mana sources with no main phase play.

To All
Feel free to suggest alternatives. I may not be utilizing the SB options to their best ability.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by maktus

and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?

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Junk/Rock is a weaker version of GW Maverick:
-1 SoFI
-2 Noble Hierarch
+1 SoLS
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Bojuka Bog (for green versions - Goyf/KotR)

Maybe O-rings if you see any planeswalkers.

Against Nic-Fit:
??? Pray.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maktus

and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?

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Thalia is fine in our deck with planeswalkers. It doesn't hinder us too much and I found that it didn't stop me from GSZing for anything that I wanted. Sometimes you have to wait one turn to play it but that didn't happen too often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fade

Thalia:
For the past few days I have tested two Thalias in the main deck to see if some matches improve over others. From what I can tell, it screws up RUG Delver unless they have a quick removal spell and it improves any storm match up. Other than that I'm not sure it does anything for other decks. Does anyone else have experience with Thalia in their maindeck? How has it been for you?

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Thalia's been stirring up a lot of discussion in the Death and Taxes threads, but she's great in that deck because of Aether Vial, SFM, and 4 Karakas MD. While Mav borrows some things from DnT, I'm not convinced that she has a spot in this deck or SB. Mav runs considerably more non-creature spells, and while it trips up many decks, without a means of reliably fetching her out, I think she'll mostly come up as too little too late.

Thalia shines in the early game, but loses power as the game extends into the later turns. Gaddock and Canonist are still our best options against combo; as far as RUG is concerned, Terravore is much better. Makes Tarmogoyf look silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Thalia's been stirring up a lot of discussion in the Death and Taxes threads, but she's great in that deck because of Aether Vial, SFM, and 4 Karakas MD. While Mav borrows some things from DnT, I'm not convinced that she has a spot in this deck or SB. Mav runs considerably more non-creature spells, and while it trips up many decks, without a means of reliably fetching her out, I think she'll mostly come up as too little too late.

Thalia shines in the early game, but loses power as the game extends into the later turns. Gaddock and Canonist are still our best options against combo; as far as RUG is concerned, Terravore is much better. Makes Tarmogoyf look silly.

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I think this is a fair assessment, I just waned to see what other people thought of her. After play testing the Esper Blade match I asked my opponent how Thalia was against him and he said he would rather see Thalia than any other two drop we had. This being said I am considering putting Teeg main and adding the third pridemage again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fade

I think this is a fair assessment, I just waned to see what other people thought of her. After play testing the Esper Blade match I asked my opponent how Thalia was against him and he said he would rather see Thalia than any other two drop we had. This being said I am considering putting Teeg main and adding the third pridemage again.

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I saw some lists using thalia in the md but for now I'm only using her when it is really necessary. I use 3 in sb in place of canonist and chokes.

Thalia can also be useful against nic fit.

I don't think I've ever had a problem with Burn, using a deck that runs 4 StoP and a bunch of creatures with 5 or more power, plus Ooze and Jitte. I also SB COP: Red for game 2, which obviously makes things a little easier.

Against Nic Fit, I keep reading here and on that thread that it just stomps Maverick. I've only ever played against it on Cockatrice, but I don't really find that to be the case. You just have to save your removal for their 6 drops, and bring in Pithing Needle against Deed. In my limited experience, that has been enough.

My problem is dealing with UW Stoneblade. I think I'm 1-3-2 in matches won every time I've played against an iteration of that deck (each match was against a different build).

This is my current list (with Thrun at the top of my want list).

26 CREATURES
3 Noble Heirarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian on Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

13 NONCREATURE
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 LAND
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Maze of Ith

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
1 Life from the Loam
3 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
COP: Red
Stony Silence
Pithing Needle
Ratchet Bomb
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph


What are the most important cards against UW Blade? I just saw someone suggest you side out Heirarch, which hadn't occurred to me yet. I know I Thrun will help, but I'm not convinced that one card is going to change the matchup from unfavorable to favorable. Is there anything else I'm missing? Also, how do you keep from going to time. I've gone 3-0-2 at a tournament because for some reason I'm incapable of beating UW twice in less than 50 minutes (if at all).