Has anyone thought of using a one of vampire hexmage in the board for planeswalkers? Seems freaking awesome with nightmare, titan, witness, stronghold.
Printable View
Has anyone thought of using a one of vampire hexmage in the board for planeswalkers? Seems freaking awesome with nightmare, titan, witness, stronghold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
I think its not great at all since it de-synergises with recurring nightmare. I rather go for vibdicate effects that is less conditional.
A vampire hexmage doesnt do anything really except for planeswalkers and yes a random vial or something but its not worth the slot in my opinion, you cant GSZ the hexmage which makes it much less of a valuable addition of the deck.
If you do, play at least the marithlage with the hexmage
On the side note, a great addition to the decks is cavern of souls
@QweeriosQuote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Agree@RE@Kich. Perhaps sideboard 3-4 Dread of Night?
Try using Reflecting Pools (I'd say x2) and a Murmuring Bosk. It's fixed any problems with the mana base in my 4-color version. Bosk coming in tapped can be annoying, but there are often turns when you can get it out without hurting your tempo. Reflecting Pools have been amazing. Also, I'd recommend adopting Paul Ewenstein's technology of a Noble Hierarch. It smooths mana and also helps vs Fish (don't have to fetch islands).
As for "just" generating mana...I don't think that's a major problem at all. If you've resolved Gifts and gone through with the infinite loop, I don't believe that you HAVEN'T hit a Witness or an Oracle yet. The most I could see it causing is it might make you want to Zenith out a Witness or Oracle when you might otherwise not want to in the early game. Keep in mind too that at the point at which you have infinite mana, you can use Titan to get back the rest of your graveyard, loop Explorer through Nightmare so that you have all of the rest of the basics in your deck out, etc. It needs a Witness or Oracle to win, but again, I don't see you having -not- hit one of those options very often.
I personally still don't like Teeg, because I like Cranial Extraction and Memoricide too much. You're right, though -- Teeg is awfully good in non-Rector versions. Rector runs Elspeth (and 4-mana enchantments), so Teeg can be a little irritating therein. Especially since Elspeth is one of our best cards vs Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
//////
Went effortlessly 3-0 with Rector last night in my local before dying in the last round to Red ANT. He combo'd me game one fairly easily, then g2 I made his life a living hell. I blew up both of his red lands with Vindicate, Hymn'd him by Cranialing his Lotus Petals, Therapy like crazy, Extirpated his Therapies to knock him off of Threshold, etc. The literal whole nine-yards. He Ad Nauseums from 9 with Elspeth staring at him. No cards in hand. Hasn't made a land drop yet. He flips LED, Bloodstained Mire, Grim Tutor, Dark Ritual, dropping to 5. He fetches (4), Ritual, LED, Tutor/break LED (1), Tendrils. For exact storm with exact mana. Fuck my life.
He LITERALLY couldn't have flipped any other 4 cards in his entire deck and won the game.
Regardless of the tilt that put me on (especially when that knocked me to 3rd on breakers...), I can say that the list is very close to how I want it. In testing, Yosei seems to have largely fixed the Maverick problem. Sakura-Tribes are pretty good, although I'm leaning towards trimming that to a 1-of for Zenith as opposed to the 2-of. As stated previously, I like drawing them naturally, but at a two-of I'm not drawing them enough for that to matter. A 1-of tutor target is probably fine, unless I can find a 3rd slot to open up somehow. They've definitely been good though....early blocks into acceleration / fixing is sweet. In an Explorerless world, they also ramp from 2->4, which is important in Rector builds for self-evident reasons.
I'm thinking about putting the 4th Deed in the board. I'm concerned about Pithing Needle and Revoker, though, and I'm not sure I want Damnation because there might be a Teeg. It's also possible that I'm obsessing entirely too much over corner cases.
I'll try to post my most recent Rector list a little later on.
I was testing out Qweerios' BGuw palin fit list from a few pages back on MWS last night.
With all the oracles and explorers I was able to ramp a lot, but usually all I could do with that mana is cast more oracles and explorers. It felt like that's all the deck does. I do feel that if you have Iona in the maindeck, there should be a way to hardcast her, if needed. I would remove a swamp and add a plains, tundra, or savannah. I feel swamp is the 2nd worst card in the deck (Island being 1st)
On the other hand, I played his BGu gifts/loam deck as well and was able to take two game ones against lands (of course the games lasted so long they would have been game one draws in a tourney) but didn't play the second or third games for either match. I was able to finally topdeck the miser wasteland after primeval stripped every other land out of my deck (he had active wastelock so I couldn't afford to titan it into play) and was able to deed his orb, waste his chasm, and apparently thrun gets by maze of ith quite well.
I was also able to beat 4c SNT/omniscience with duress/extirpate on SNT, but Keiga, the Tide Star is brutal against any nonSTP versions of this deck. However the deck seems more all-in on SNT, so we have a better chance to disrupt them than sneak/show.
I think I'd like to try a 1/1 split of JTMS and Liliana in this version, and also put in an unearth. I'd like to have some means of card advantage that doesn't use the stack, cost mana, or is dependent on the graveyard (i.e. Jace +0, phyrexian arena, bob) and being able to wish for jace, liliana, witness, and something else shouldn't be scoffed at.
Gratz on the result
I am looking forward to it. At the moment I am sticking to the rector version and I am planning to play it at the Dutch Nationals in October. Of course Return to Ravnica will offer completely new untested decklists. This means plenty more discussions/optionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
So here we go , moving towards celebrating page 200 :tongue:
I love this thread, its people, the discussion, and last but not least the amazing Nic Fit deck. Never a dull moment. :laugh:
In my builds I don't have Elspeth or 4 mana enchantments (except for Humility sideboard) so that's why I felt Teeg could go main. I haven't done much testing with Elspeth though, but my theory is that Teeg gives a boost to horrible matchups as opposed to Elspeth boosting decent to good matchups...and both help Miracles, so I dunno there :P.
The Cranial/Memoricide/Tsunami concern is a valid one and I'm still contemplating it. However, an x1 Teeg is still searchable for when we don't draw the Extractions and it can give us an out (even if temporary) against Leyline of Sanctity, which always seems to come out turn 0 against me in games 2/3. My worry with a Tsunami attempt would be if I sacced Teeg and they get to finally use their sandbagged FoW...so running Teeg will likely prove to be a skill-intensive move. I imagine Teeg will be aimed as a late game (post-Extractions) to stop the 4+ bombs that serve as their only out against, say, Sigarda (Ad Naseum, Tendrils, Entreat, Wrath of God) and effectively seal the deal.
Overall our deck is designed to kill our own creatures, so I imagine we can find ways to remove Teeg if necessary. That's also why I'm rolling with Viridian Emissary for now. Nothing else, I'd rather a Swords to hit Emissary than an Explorer or late game fatty, as opposed to them holding one because of STEve. I don't rely on the 4 mana slot as much either, so I can see why you want Steve. The extra flexibility of GSZ for Steve and then saccing for the land is nice, but seems a waste of a GSZ. I ran an x1 Emissary and just preferred it as Acceleration #9 (Explorer 1-4, GSZ 5-8).
--
As far as your unfortunate bout of bad luck, why didn't you Cranial the Ad Naseums?
I'm also interested in the updated rector list. I picked up a pair of FBB Savannah's at gencon and I may try to trade one for a moat and something.
Here is an updated gbw list I have. There's 62 cards so I need to make some cuts but I'm not sure what to drop. Certainly the sb is by no means set either, the deed and stp are fillers atm.
Also what are thoughts on 3 tops vs 2 tops and 1 sylvain library split?
Creature (17)
1x Academy Rector
2x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer
Enchantment (5)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare
Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares
Land (23)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (11)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Pernicious Deed
@Claymore -- You're probably right. I had Therapied him, so I knew that his two cards in hand were Lotus Petals. I'd already Vindicated his two red lands in deck (Badlands and Volc), so my thought process was twofold: remove two free Storm count in case he draws something, and make it so that LED is the only remaining source of red mana in his deck. I also had an Eternal Witness swinging away, so I figured that if I kept him off mana and cards for Storm as much as possible, I would be able to get his life low enough that Ad Nauseum wouldn't be scary. But I do think you're very likely correct.
@Kung Fu -- Master of the Wild Hunt is terrible now. He was fine a few months ago, but I wouldn't touch him with the current meta (and the way the meta is progressing). You also really need a Fierce Empath to go with your Sun Titan and Grave Titan. Making your big bombs GSZ-able is a pretty good thing. Especially when you can nut out and Empath->Sun, sac Empath for Therapy (checking for counters) or Tower for mana, play Sun, returning Empath, grabbing Grave. Most decks just crumple under that barring extenuating on-board circumstances.
I continue to dislike Thrun. I'd make that the cut down to 61, which is perfectly acceptable. IMO Nic Fit should always be run at 61. It just flows better. I've tried it at 60 and it doesn't feel right to me. You suck so much land out of your deck, plus GSZ....I've never had a problem with the extra card. I'd rather have the extra tutor target than the most perfect math possible with the extra .07% chance to have a Veteran in your opener, or whatever it actually works out to.
3 Tops is always better. Sylvan Library gets punted by Deed constantly....Top saves itself.
The 1-of Inquisition maindeck looks a little suspect to me. I'm not sure what else is on your short list of things to put in, but I can't imagine you finding it reliably enough when it matters.
@HoneyT -- what are your thoughts on Kung Fu's list?
@Kung Fu
Would it not be better to have 2, maybe even 3 rectors? The problem is what to cut?
Maybe cut Kitchen Finks? (besides the suggestions already made by Arianrhod)
Maybe Teeg based on previous discussions?
I recently included Ooze as well because it serves a lot of causes.
I do play the version with Moat so that will make a difference regarding maindeck choices.
Not really going back into all of these pages, but I played this deck to just goof around and play something different a few months ago. I made it a goal to win the tourney while using Recurring Nightmare and Yosei to lock them out of the game. I think that if you are using all of these titans, I would just consider Yosei lock with Nightmare...
Ooze is amazing. I'm even considering adding a second one. Just because I tend to blow my ooze up with deed a lot. Sometimes you just gotta do it. I still am a big fan of Thrun. A lot of decks just fold to him.
I run a 1 of inquisition as well and have always liked it. It is nice having one extra disruptive discard spell in case of combo, and it is nice to open on that into next turn therapy and explorer. That is just destructive.
@above
Scavenging ooze would be the first creature I would add and probably the last card from the list I would cut. It does do much against all the decks.
The list started out as 4 therapy and 2 hymns which I evolved to 1 thought seize and 1 iok which I had to make a cut so the thought seize went. It's not about getting it reliably it's more of having the 5th discard effect. The 2 spots were Lilliana firstly as well. But that said it may be correct tO drop it.
Master is probably the correct cut. Thrun I always like with the myriad of blue decks around and he just beats rug. But with enough discard the uncountable may not be necessary. I still think you want 1 4 drop green creature and that seems to be either master or Thrun. Other suggestions?
Fierce empath I did get ahold of but hadn't put it in yet. It is good utility and I'll give it a shot. On a side note, I wish monwali beast tracker didn't put to top of library or found more keywords so it could get baneslayer and sun Titan.
I only playing 1 rector ATM since its not a dedicated rector build. It's a way to have a flex second copy of all my 1 of enchantments. Mostly experimental as well at this point.
Teeg seems good right now but could be sb. Same with pridemage potentially?
61 cards seems fine to me too ESP with 23 lands. I've run 61 in a lot of other decks before and I know how the stats add up so I like it honestly.
So right now I'm at the above list:
-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 pridemage to sb
+1 fierce empath?
Tappedout link for those curious:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nic-fit-12/
Thrun is great as well. The hexproof is very very good vs STP and Karakas, and he can chump big KotR vs Maverick all day, then after you deed for 3 he goes on offense.
For strictly cutting 2 cards, I would cut Pridemage and Master. I used to run both, but cut Master early when I rarely was GSZing for him.
Pridemage was a little harder to stomach, but realized that I was hardly using him for something board-breaking and generally just a "lol I can do this" play. Usually Pridemage will be to kill equipment, and no equipment can truly qualify as a game breaker aside from maybe SoFI or SoFF. Batterskull we can either chump block with creatures or our face until we get a bigger threat down, and Jitte isn't scary to us until it gets to 4 or 6 counters. Both easily get stopped or slowed by Deed. Other must-stops aren't fast enough to end the game (Confinement) or can just sit (Leylines) while we just find another of our 5+ answers in the deck.
Past that, I would cut Ooze. I run Ooze in the sideboard because, like Pridemage, there aren't enough must-answers to run him. I rarely, if ever, GSZ'd for him when he was mainboard, and would rather wait the extra turn to GSZ -> Empath -> Titan. If he is crucial to the match, then the Ooze is likely too slow to matter (Reanimator, Dredge) since you would need to GSZ minimum turn 2/3 and then eat graves turn 3/4. For areas heavy with Maverick I can see Ooze sticking around, but otherwise our other bombs can easily handle the load.
I also think having Thrun and Sigarda is redundant, and in this meta I would rather have Sigarda. Her flying and Hexproof were huge when hunting a Jace hiding behind an active Batterskull and a few chump blockers. She's also bigger than your typical Goyf and can easily stop Delvers. Thrun can't be countered, which certainly has helped me in past games, but having him in-hand is not something to depend on.
---
I might look at testing a singleton Ulvenwald Tracker, probably sideboard since he sucks against control and combo. I know he comes up in here often, probably because of me lol, but I want to try for a few reasons:
-Rock thread loves him, and Maverick often runs him. Those are similar decks to us.
-He helps clear out trouble cards such as Mother of Runes, Phyrexian Revoker, and general chump blockers
-If you get lucky and have Grave Titan and him out, Grave Titan can assassinate Emrakul.
Mostly though, I'm looking to see why Maverick and Rock love him so much and to see if that loving can translate. If we can get more removal without having to blow Deeds and Pulses constantly then I'm all for it...not to mention an outlet for Explorers and Rectors.
In that line of thinking, those of you with heavy Miracles may want to consider the Sylvan Safekeeper + Gaddock Teeg hard lock on them.
@Claymore - Rock has Knight of the Reliquary, and they're also a -dedicated- KotR deck. This means that he gets enormous very, very quickly, as do their Goyfs (thanks to discard). The reason I don't like Tracker in traditional styled Nic Fit decks (despite considering him a few times) is because our threats take forever to drop. Sure, you punch something with a Titan, they're gonna feel it. But that's 6 mana. While we do have a different definition of "big mana" than most of legacy, Rock likes Tracker because he comes out early, their Goyfs and KotRs come out early, and then he goes to down from there. With that in mind, Tracker is perfect for Kich's deck, because Dungrove will do a pretty good KotR impersonation, and I'm fairly certain he was running Goyf as well, which, with Therapy, is again nutty.
With that in mind, I don't think that Tracker is something we can really take advantage of, sadly. Even making things fight Baneslayer or Rector as a means to sac out isn't that great.
As an aside for everyone, by the way, apparently Academy Rectors are pushing upwards of $20 retail now, with foils approaching 70-80. I have no idea when this happened...I'm guessing people want to experiment with Omniscience and see if that's a viable course, so they're buying up copies just in case. Regardless, if you want to get in on the Rector version cheaply, you can probably still find some sites (or LGS) that haven't updated their prices yet. Trade tables are probably good too, because I'm pretty sure price memory is going to hold 8-10 range for a little while at least. Looks like the Rector version is going to get even -more- inaccessible cost-wise, though =(
I'm not currently considering Tarmogoyf. Perhaps I should try to find a way to fit him in though. He's certainly aggressive, but I worry that I'm already quite flooded on the creature front. Though there's also the option of moving even further towards that end, aim to just have more creatures than they will removal (sort of mavericky in that sense).
Damn, I saw that the Omniscience was making waves but was hoping it would avoid influencing Rector price. So much for that
Goyf does not belong inthis deck. Once you are running goyf you might as well go full on rock. Nic Fit for the most part is a green sun control style deck. It does have rock influences but we aren't trying to go Aggro with 2 drops. We go big with 5s and 6s.
I would never cut ooze unless my meta was full of tendrils and such. He is great against RUG, Maverick, Dredge, Reanimator. Even against Stoneblade he can turn off snapcaster or just get big. And even if my meta was full of tendrils this deck would not be good at all. Having an ooze to green sun for is just amazing.
@KungFu and @Arianrhod:
Re: Kung Fu's junk build
I don't mind the extra discard slot, but if you use it, then Thoughtseize is just better. Like most everybody said, Master is not really worth it nor is Thrun because Sigarda is just better. Also, if you're only running one Rector and aren't Rector centric, which I like, I don't think the second Tower is necessary. If you really like the extra sac outlet, I'm a fan of Innocent Blood. I don't like Teeg in the main, in the sideboard I think he's fine since you aren't using Cranial Extraction effects. Shutting off arguably your best card game 1 isn't what you want to be doing.
If I were to tweak your mainboard it would be something like this:
- Gaddok Teeg
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Thrun, the Last Troll
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Phyrexian Tower
+ Thoughtseize
+ Innocent Blood
+ Liliana of the Veil
+ Elspeth, Knight Errant
Something like that. Hope that helps!
@above
The big thing Pridemage kills for me is Sneak Attack honestly. That ends the game out of nowhere and is too high CC for deed. The rest im not worried about. But putting it in the SB seems fine since people are starting to eschew sneak now or might.
I did try Ulvenwald tracker, didn't like it. Doesn't work in this deck.
Thoughseize vs. IoK: comes down to the 2 life for me. I find myself stabilizing at 1-3 somewhat often, so it could make a difference. Certainly could go either way though.
Pick up your Rectors now and finish your play sets. It's going to be 30 before too long.
I still think Thrun and Sigarda both do a ton of work in the deck and I like having both available. If you get 1 in hand you search the other. And you aren't hosed if you get one killed or countered without a recursion ability.
Scavenging Ooze: If you aren't searching him up main deck something is wrong. I search him up all the time. He is the go to low cc aggro creature. GSZ for 1-3 doesn't get any better. There's a reason why time walk is banned, and time walking yourself so you can GSZ for empath a turn later and be a turn behind the rest of the game is not where you want to be. What else are you going to do with 3 mana when you are on the beatdown or facing no threats? Play witness into an empty GY?
2 Phy Tower: 1 could become a Volrath's, as it used to be, but that is clunky in my experience. Tower gives you explosive openings and 5 mana on t2 more often. Replacing one with an innocent blood or other not only removes the 2 mana you get from tower but also costs you 2 more, so you are basically time walking yourself.
I could be convinced to remove the Karakas and put 2 in the SB for appropriate matchups, however.
- Gaddok Teeg (SB)
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Qasali Pridemage (SB)
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Karakas (SB x2)
+ Thoughtseize
+ Liliana of the Veil
+ Elspeth, Knight Errant
+ Fierce Empath
Potentially?
Right now I'm 1-1 at my Wednesday night legacy... With a bye lol. Lost to Miracles. Man that match up is just impossibly difficult. I just have no way to beat entreat. Game 1 I had liliana and Garruk out and won. I just think Liliana is one of the better cards in this deck.
Ended up 2-1-1 in the Swiss. Beat Tezzeret control to be able to draw into the top 8. He basically played a bunch of artifacts that locked me out for a few turns, crucible with wasteland to take out 2 of my 3 groves, an ensnaring bridge with no cards in hand, a chalice at 1, and a smokestacks at 1. Naturally I rip deed and crack it for 4. Game 2 I drew my singleton SB Ancient Grudge and just annihilate. It actually made me feel bad. I got all the sick rips.
Then I beat a Jund Zombie list built to abuse Vengevine. Very awesome list that I would love to get from him. But Deed does work. G2 I drew my singletons Extirpate and Surgical. Deed wrecks so many decks. I think I want a 4th one in my SB.
My big issue was UW Miracles. I just cannot beat Entreat for any number. At one point I Lily ultimate and had Garruk out and the game was still in doubt despite him only having jace and a top. Just a tough match up I guess. Anyone got sweet anti entreat tech?
Also finally got to use Garruk Primal Hunter tonight a few times. Amazing. 3/3 every turn and then refill the hand? Sweet. I tried out a one of Punishing Fire and Grove in the SB. Only used it once.
Also I will be putting Wickerbough Elder back into the deck. Just a few random times I wished that I had him.
@Megadeus:
Gaddock Teeg should be your main card against U/W Miracles. Also, try the Ifh-Biff Efreet. Raking Canopy is also very hard to answer card for U/W Miracles, but it may be hard to find without Rector or intuition/gifts.
@Planeswalkers
I really don't think that planeswalkers are good right now, unless they are Karn or anything else with very high loyalty. Flash creatures are everywhere (Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, EOT Entreat's) and they just beat planeswalkers. Also, lightning bolts are everywhere. The meta is not right for planeswalkers right now imo. I would cut those for cards that interact at instant speed. One of the cards I'm currently testing is a singleton Chord of Calling. That card has a lot of utility in this deck. I won't bother listing out every interaction, but Chord of Calling for Eternal Witness, bring back Chord of Calling, chump block with Eternal Witness can provide a bunch of value right there. It's kind of nice to have a GSZ that goes to the graveyard and works at instant speed.
@Academy Rector price
I bought 4 foil Academy Rectors on top of the 4 regular ones I have, which I plan on trading away. I had been looking for the foil version for a long while but nobody seems to have it and the price was already rising. It's an Urza's Destiny rare, which is already hard to come by. When I compare it to foil Mother of Runes (also reprinted as FNM foil), the current price for Academy Rector seems low even though Mother of Runes is much more of a staple. Rare versus uncommon and EDH playability are important factors imo. Rector was already slowly climbing due to the fact that it's an old foil casual / edh staple. The Pattern of Rebirth deck also plays it. This is one of those cards that I really wanted to trade for, but it took me so long to find it that I eventually just bought it out when I had the chance. I don't feel like catching up the way I did with with foil Grim Monolith. It also gives me an incentive to play around with rector versions, so hopefully I can provide some good insights into the build in the future :) (for reference, I paid 55usd each including shipping/transaction, the cheapest alternative was 1 for 55 euro, and 4 for 240 euro on MCM both excluding shipping/transaction).
@Megadeus -- Miracles seems like it would be particularly rough for the PFire version that you run. As Bruizar noted, other versions have some weapons that they can bring to bear, but the red lists can definitely have some issues. What does your sideboard look like currently?
I also agree with Bruizar that most planeswalkers are bad right now. Elspeth and Primal Hunter are exceptions, I feel -- they have beefy enough loyalty that they can take a hit from a Clique or a Bolt, and they clog up the ground so Snaps can't get through. PFire's synergy with Liliana notwithstanding, you might want to trim out the Lilys for the moment, or at least relegate them to the sideboard. The meta isn't right.
I don't recommend Teeg since you aren't in white at all, but Ifh-Biff is worth a shot in the matchup. Otherwise, you pretty much have to lean on your extraction effects. Always call Top when on the play with Therapy. If they land a Top anyway, wait for them to activate Top, then Extirpate literally anything in their graveyard to force them to shuffle their deck. Cranial naming Entreat. Etc.
@Rector price -- I definitely agree that the price increase was due to happen eventually, but I think that the primary reason is because of the printing of Omniscience. Everyone suspects that there is something to be broken there, so I have a feeling that's the reason for the sharp increase in their non-foil price. Foils I think have been creeping up slowly for a while due to the reasons Bruizar already suggested, and I just didn't notice. Guess I should prioritize getting my jap foils while I can -.-
In other news, Caleb Durward has continued brewing on his end. He took the BUG list that I sent to Caffrey and made some changes:
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Island
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Counterbalance
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
2 Negate
1 Thragtusk
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I sorted the list for your viewing pleasure. I feel like it's an interesting take on the non-Gifts BUG list, but I'm not sure that the tradeoff for running Shardless (not running GSZ) is worth it. Shardless main does up the blue count high enough for maindeck Force of Will, which is pretty hot. However, looking at the list, I feel like it doesn't have enough ways to actually end the game. Sure, it'll drown the opponent in cards, but somewhere in those cards there has to be a way to actually win. I'd probably try to find a way to put in a pair of Thragtusks main, and lean on them+Sphinx+Jace+Clique+2/2 beats. That still isn't an "impressive" wincon, but it's probably "enough" considering the card advantage. While I agree that 3 Witnesses is a little extreme, there's no way 0 Witness can be right. I'd try to get a pair of those back in as well, probably in place of the misguided spot removal options. That also makes it more likely that cascade will go into something you always want. I guess there are times you want to flip a removal spell, but it seems poor most of the time...especially with Mother of Runes' prevalence in the format
I also vehemently disagree that Fierce Empath should just be "another titan." The strength of Empath is that it allows for Green Sun to fetch the strongest 6-drops, which are traditionally NOT green. If you substitute Empath with another Titan, you have another 6-drop, which can clog your hand, and you have effectively 3 6-drops in deck. With Empath, you have effectively 7 6-drops in deck, thanks to Green Sun. I fail to see how this is better ever, and I wish that Caleb still checked the thread as he used to periodically. Maybe I'll give him a poke in the comments on his article.
If anyone wants to read it, here's the relevant article -- http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...nce-of-shards/
@Bruizar -- Chord of Calling is interesting. How has it been in testing so far, as far as castability goes? I have no doubt that if you resolve it, it's amazing. But I worry about its mana intensity.
RE: Entreat
In my (limited) experience against miracles the way to deal w entreat is to stick a deed and sit on it. They won't cast entreat as long as there is a deed on board. They don't have many other threats, so you can wait on it. Thragtusk also does good work. His cc is pretty good vs counterbalance (just FoW) and the token survives terminus.
I'm not sure yet. One interesting interaction that comes up is that I can fetch my 1 off dryad arbor and use it for convoke, essentially disregarding the summoning sickness of arbor so it taps for mana. It's also nice that I can theoretically ramp with Eternal Witness over multiple turns, even if I don't hit lands because of this sequence:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Chord of Calling x=3 -> Eternal Witness, grab Chord of Calling
Chord of Calling x=4 (convoke witness) Eternal Witness#2, Grab Chord of Calling
Chord of Calling x=5 ... etc.
I understand this is going to be way too slow most of the time, but sometimes when you really need to, you can set up enough convoke to get the correct creature the next turn.
Another great thing is that you can find non-green creatures with it, such as Phantasmal Image/Palinchron (yes, 10 mana), Academy Rector or even Baneslayer Angel depending on the list you are playing. It grabs sideboard Meddling Mages too, though you should already have some hate before that time or you're going to be in troubles.
Another very cool application, more so for the intuition/gifts builds than for other builds, is the fact that you can use it end of turn. If they resolve a Jace, just EOT get a creature and kill it immediately before he takes over the game.
I'm not sure if the mana cost is going to make this card unplayable yet, but I feel like the Convoke ability and Eternal Witness are two factors contributing to its success the most.
The problem with this is that Sneak Attack is in no way vulnerable to Pridemage. When they land Sneak, they'll win unless they're a horrible player. I've tested against Sneak Show almost to the point of obsession, and its very, very rare that a Sneak will just sit out for you to ping.Quote:
The big thing Pridemage kills for me is Sneak Attack honestly. That ends the game out of nowhere and is too high CC for deed. The rest im not worried about. But putting it in the SB seems fine since people are starting to eschew sneak now or might.
Ooze is great in theory, but he's a massive mana sink for not a lot of board impact. You can marginally shrink Goyfs/Knights (remember, you're a 3 color deck and we can't afford to fetch all duals), but meanwhile you still have to deal with the self-pumping Knights and Goyfs crashing on your dome while you're busy eating lands in the graveyard. Ooze is good against RUG, but by the time you get him online you've taken 9-12 damage from Delver and have Goyf or Mongoose still crashing your castle - good luck spending GGG to try and shrink a mongoose and still win.Quote:
I would never cut ooze unless my meta was full of tendrils and such. He is great against RUG, Maverick, Dredge, Reanimator. Even against Stoneblade he can turn off snapcaster or just get big. And even if my meta was full of tendrils this deck would not be good at all. Having an ooze to green sun for is just amazing.
Spending massive amounts of mana to clear out a graveyard to "turn off" 4 cards out of the deck isn't the best plan. It's still a 2/1 that will kill your Ooze who hasn't eaten any creatures.
That's right, something is wrong. With the meta. There are not many situations now where an Ooze is truly the best play you want, and if you're the beat down role then searching up vanilla 2/2's isn't going to get you there, especially since there's probably no creatures to eat from the control deck. Or if you're searching it against combo, then, well, Ooze was a timewalk for your opponent. I deleted your analogy to save you some face.Quote:
Scavenging Ooze: If you aren't searching him up main deck something is wrong. I search him up all the time. He is the go to low cc aggro creature. GSZ for 1-3 doesn't get any better. ... What else are you going to do with 3 mana when you are on the beatdown or facing no threats? Play witness into an empty GY?
I say this stuff out of experience and testing. Overall, our deck is more than well enough equipped (Deeds, Pulses, Titans) to deal with situations where Ooze was tangentially applicable until we can get our game-ending bombs online. However, he's a very strong card still so I keep him in the sideboard for matches where he is applicable.
------
I used to play x1 Chord of Calling for the same reasons, being able to search out off-color creatures, but eventually cut it. It was phenomenal with Deranged Hermit (yay convoke), but overall was too expensive for mediocre effects. I loved the fact you could do it instantly, which saved me in a game, but it also lost me my top 8 RUG match where I needed a top deck, drew it, and couldn't cast it.
I've been reworking the deck, so it may be worth another shot.
@Arianrhod
Would you mind sharing your latest rector build with us?
I'm playing 1 scavenging ooze in my rector build and it's been awsome. Early in the game it's a decent beater and late game it can eat graveyards like no one else. The most interesting part is that he can win very tough matchups like reanimator. ( wich is heavily represented in my meta)Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I love the Ifh-Biff Efreet tech, LED into scavenge yay.. Who knows.
Further more I expect Chord of Calling to be more of a staple in the return to ravnice cycle. Populate tells us that there will be quite some tokens.. I keep an eye out for just that. Then tokens will transform from cannin fodder to mana ramp with the chord of calling.
On paper much to mana intensive though chord of calling allows for neat interactions with Aven Mind Censor or true believer. It has potential for sure so great find
@Chord of Calling
In that regards, Lingering Souls / Intuition / Chord of Calling is also something to keep in mind.
Oops, sorry. I was going to do it last night and I completely forgot =(
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x ThragTUSK
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
//SB
3x Extirpate
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Darkblast
1x Nether Void
1x Raking Canopy
1x Humility
1x Curse of Death's Hold
This is what I played at my local Tuesday night. I like the Ooze in the board currently. I don't like the two Darkblasts particularly, but I'm not sure what else I want. I THINK I want a pair of sweepers that are not named Pernicious Deed, but I'm not sure what option I want to use, and I'm not sure that's what the deck needs at this juncture anyway.
As mentioned previously, I could see +1 Sakura-Tribe or -1 Sakura-Tribe. Since I don't think I'll be able to open up one more slot main for the 3rd, I suspect it'll be -1 Sakura-Tribe, which leaves the last spot as a hopefully soon to exist GSZ-able sac outlet that does not cost mana to sac. Or something with Scavenge. Or who knows what. I'll probably be leaving it at 2 for the moment....my opinion might change by Ravnica, and there's nothing else I really want to put in at the moment.
Note that putting the 3rd in would be preferable. I just don't know what I'd cut to make room =|
@Arianrhod
Thank you for the list. As a newbie I have a few questions.
How usefull is the Fierce Empath since you run only 2 six drops and the are in the right colour. Will the info to your opponent not make them keep counters?
I read some comments about Swords to Plowshares but don't you miss it. I even considered running 2 of them.
I added one ooze main but still not sure how usefull it is maybe the extra sakura is better?
My current SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
1 Memoricide
1 Choke
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Raking Canopy
I was actually starting to think of a deck very similar to this. I too question the removal of GSZ for the value of shardless agent, but I'll try it. I also agree with both you and Caleb that this version needs an I win button, and further I am not sure about the clique in there. I'd like to make a version like this, but take out the agents and run GSZ + empath, and also make sure to up the blue count enough to support FOW,. What about Keiga, the Tide Star as anti SNT tech (also seems good in the mirror), chumps and steals kotr, large goyfs, grizzy, wurmcoil engine, emrakul (even gets past anihilator--sort of)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
In other news:
I dabbled a little in Kung Fu's BGw list on MWS last night. Got clobbered by show and breach (o_o), enchantress (o_O?) and pox (O_O?). Apparently Leyline of the void shuts off every meaningful interaction we have, and sinkhole can target basic lands. Who knew?
@Cire_DK
Empath is the shit. His purpose is to make my non-green 6-drops Green Sun-able. Having a go-between so that when you draw a Green Sun and can grab a 6-drop is awesome. I DO think that at SOME point in the future he'll get cut, as the 5-drops Wizards is printing continue to evolve to be better and better. After testing without Empath/Titan/Yosei, however, I feel we're not there yet. I'm not worried about the information. Usually my opponent is out of answers by the time a 6-drop happens, and if they aren't, they will be afterward.
I'm not quite as anti-Ooze as Claymore is, but I'm close. I think that the correct place for him in a tricolor Nic Fit deck is in the sideboard. There's too many matchups where he's just marginal at best. I fully grant that he's a good card -- but he's a good card for Maverick more than anything else because they have an abundance of green mana to pump into him. Straight G/B Nic Fit loves him, too. But tricolor....I can find better things to do most of the time. I'll grant that he's an amazing sideboard card, but I won't go beyond that.
I had a 1-of Swords in the main deck for a very, very long time, and it was "okay." I wouldn't rank it more than that, though. The deck wants more powerful effects as opposed to more efficient effects. I'd rather blow up the world with Deed as opposed to remove one creature with Swords....especially with the prevalence of Mother of Runes, Mongoose, and so on.
For your board, I'd definitely recommend switching to all Extirpate as opposed to Surigcal. Split second is hugely relevant in the matchups you'll bring it in vs (Miracles and Sneak/Show/Omni, Reanimator). Otherwise it seems fine. Whether or not you have more discard in the board is largely a personal choice. I have both had more discard and not had more discard at various points in the history of the deck...right now I'm not feeling it, but that's always open to change. Some of it depends on your local meta, too.
@All -- is anyone going to SCG MN? I seem to remember a few people talking about it a while back. If you're going, what version are you running, what do you expect, etc. Let's get some discussion going for those people so they can be as prepared as possible.
What do you people think about this card:
Korozda Guildmage
Creature - Elf Shaman
(3cmc): Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains intimidate until end of turn.
(4CMC), Sacrifice a nontoken creature: Put X 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is the sacrificed creature's toughness.
unblockable for planeswalkers / extra sac outlet / token'mana ramp'generation
I guess I'm still on the boat that this is a green sun control deck. Ooze is a green sun target that can hate the graveyard, just like despite how bad he is wickerbough elder is our green sun enchantment and artifact hate. My meta is full of fair decks and a lot of creature strategies where him getting big, and gaining life is very relevant. Plus resolving an Ooze against Dredge on T2 or 3 against dredge they just can't win.
The problem with the guildmage is that his abilities are freaking expensive. 2BG to sac a creature is painful...especially when most of the creatures we'd want to sac (ie Rector and Explorer) are 1/1s or 1/2s, so we'd barely get any value out of that. You'd be spending 6 mana to give something Intimidate for a turn after GSZ the Guildmage out, or 7 mana to sacrifice something. That's way too spicy. And if you let him sit there for a turn and then play a Rector, it'll just get Sworded in resp.Quote:
Originally Posted by KMS
No, we are still a GSZ control deck. But you have to be intelligent with your choices, is all. I don't run a Qasali or a Wickerbough main, although for major events I've been running a Harmonic Sliver in my board for a while. There just isn't enough stuff that we want to kill anymore. Sure, there are corner cases where we want it -- but then why not run Ichneumon Druid maindeck? What about Ifh-Biff? Or Willow Satyr? There's tons of stuff we can run in almost every category imaginable for GSZ, that can all fulfill separate roles. That doesn't mean we need to run all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
For what it's worth, I think that the PFire build is one of the few tricolors that actually wants an Ooze maindeck. Grove gives you a lot of extra green sources that you wouldn't have otherwise.
@Arianrhod Caleb zinged you pretty good in the comments. :laugh:
@Durward's latest blue list: Huge fan of your work, started playing the straight GB list as an alternative to Maverick when everyone else at my local shop started playing the same list. The best part is the fact that there are so many opportunities to interact with my opponent, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I drop a Deed and wipe away someone's entire board.
Question: why does a deck splashing blue have to run 4x Force of Will? Why not just splash it for awesome value guys like Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle?