Might not be a bad idea to give them their own thread and post a link in the OP. Because they are not going to be much use once we are 5 pages past them.
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Might not be a bad idea to give them their own thread and post a link in the OP. Because they are not going to be much use once we are 5 pages past them.
Good point. I was thinking along similar lines. But I thought I should post some up for people to see first so I can gauge how difficult or easy people find these. Perhaps I could have each puzzle try to highlight the utility of different cards. I got the idea when Kayradis was asking about good places to send very new players.
Ok, that's not a bad idea. I would suggest putting in a puzzle thread also the Base decklist. So people can see what cards they have to work with. I mean I can just grab my deckbox and lay it out on the table, but others I feel will not have this opportunity. So having a list there that they can cross reference will help when using cards like NO and GSZ.
Also, if these are for new players, I would put up some with interactions that are common tricks for the deck. Then post under the photo "Note card X" and leave them to work out how it works with card Y.
Another idea would be to also put down what the top card of the deck is. In a situation like you have been hit with Chittering Rats. I know that is unlikely in legacy but it does give another layer of complexity to the puzzles if you are now having to fight over two turns. Throw in wasteland for max fun.
You just took my idea and gave it one of these:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3qfG9vyGMG...0/level_up.jpg
Admit, the second one took me quote a few seconds, but is in impressive example how dirty Quirion Ranger is ^^
Mind posting the solutions to these?
Forgot to say that on the draw your opponent has played a plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhanTom_lt
One sec, I will PM you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
On the play:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Assuming the drawn card on turn 2 is irrelevant, I wouldn't bounce the bayou. Instead, I would play symbiote off the bayou to protect my elves and then quirion ranger off the cradle to protect the bayou. Your opponent can still waste the cradle but this is somewhat irrelevant as you still have crop rotation in your hand for turn 3. I would keep the second DRS in my hand to keep glimpse as a live draw.
On the draw:
I would consider playing quirion ranger first. If your opponent StPs your DRS and wastes your bayou, you pretty much lost since cradle won't make any mana. With ranger, you can bounce your bayou in response to the StP and then replay it next turn along with DRS.
I was typing out a solution but then the thread had some other action going on. I only have access to a phone now so it took me awhile. Lol. I can post them if people want them. Can we do spoiler tags on these forums?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
IRT to the post above, I would start like nudon by assuming my first drop will be STP'd. So I would give him the least valuable creature in my hand and then see what happens. You usually have plenty of time to go slow if your opponent starts like that.
Good points. I agree with you as you point them out.
Edit,
No we have no tags, but I did PM him my answers. The question is if I typed them in an understandable way.
For the puzzles, I think glimpse chain examples with gsz would be helpful for new elf players as well. This would help highlight when to gsz for a certain creature (heritage, nettle, quirion, visionary, wirewood). The "correct" answer may vary from player to player too in some instances but hopefully it'll provide healthy debate if anything.
Really struggling on the 2nd one... Are you sure you've played your land for turn already?? I tried 1st GSZ for Ranger, Heritage Druid, Dryad Arbor and none of them worked...
PM sent.
Tap Bayou for G, tap Birchlore + Nettle for G, spend both mana to GSZ for Heritage, untap Nettle, Tap Nettle + Heritage for G, use Symbiote to return Heritage and untap Birchlore, play Heritage, untap Nettle, tap Heritage + Birchlore + Nettle for GGG, GSZ for Quirion Ranger and keep G float, untap Nettle, return Bayou to untap Birchlore, tap Nettle + Quirion + Birchlore for a total of GGGG, cast NO (sacrifice Heritage), untap Nettle, put Craterhoof into play and attack with him, Nettle and SymbioteQuote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
5 creatures = +5/+5
Craterhoof 5(+5) + Nettle 2(+5) + Symbiote 1(+5) = 23 Damage
Cool, yeah I missed that I had one mana floating after the second GSZ.
Those were great. I loved them. What a great Thanksgiving gift. Best one I had all day, and I had several other good ones. Daniel, you are the man (i.e., the ELF) in so many ways. Many, many thanks.
It would be great to get a thread/archive of these kinds of puzzles to do exactly as people have suggested.
What I love about this deck is the mental energy it requires. It is a deck that provides versatility because it is hard to play, yet a very flexible tool, with several different approaches to victory. For me, no other deck has provided this much fun. This deck is not fun because you win, it is fun because you never know quite how you will win or what you will have to do to win.
Yeah. It can do just about any positive (=build-your-own-resources) thing in Magic, and with overwhelming force. Big dudes, hordes, comboing out, grinding slow games, board control, prison, raw draw power, this deck has it all. Plus there's something special about doing all that broken Storm combo stuff, and casting Tinkers and Ancestrals with mono-green cards. Feels so much more like cheating than playing Infernal, LED even if it's the same stuff in function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_of_Rivendell
I had a ton of trouble with the second puzzle because I didn't think of grabbing Heritage first. Like, I had three dudes up in some failed attempts, but my sleep-deprived brain didn't make the association that maybe Heritage first is correct. After Lemnear said that it was easy.
Before I read that the Land was already dropped, grabbing Quirion first was my idea to make it work too (it does). Seeing a single land is an inpulse to dig for quirion lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
My first impulse is almost always to go after everyone's favourite insect.
I liked the puzzles and was relieved to solve them without help ^^! Especially the second one haha.
I have some questions about Elves:
Julian was playing 2 Mindbreak Trap @ BoM but mentioned in his article that Thorn of Amethyst could also fill up those slots. I am actually doing that for quite some time now. Trap could be good vs some matchups but those slots should fight ANT the most (for me/in my meta), and trap can be very bad in that matchup. But even while I'm 100% sure I should play Thorn, I'm still not sure when to board it in.
YES: ANT, TES, Omnidreams, Tin Fins, Belcher , Oops All Spells and everything that fast
NOT SURE: Reanimate, Sneaky Show, Dredge (I guess you board it in against Manaless Dredge). And while I don't think it's necessary, some would also bring it in vs RUG Delver.
What do you guys think?
And Julian: You like to shave creatures vs most combo decks. Why is that better than -3 Symbiote -3 Visionary? Or is it just to reduce the odds of drawing multiples (I can imagine), because all those creatures are 'not bad' but become worse if you have more of them/you prefer to see one of the others than another one of one card. And why not cut 1 of the 2 Arbors vs combo? With the exception of dredge. I think the manabase can handle that and you wont have to use them for blocking tricks or to fetch one after a sweeper (most of the time).
Btw, I tested your list with the small sb change and I think sideboarding becomes a little easier when playing 61 cards main ^^, mostly because you standard cut 1 Craterhoof most of the time! Thanks for proving that playing 61 cards is not always bad! I already congratulated you in the hotel (I was at BoM with Jamie), but still want to say that it was awesome that you made such a winning strike trough several events with the little green men! And thanks for the reports! They were great!
I like bringing thorns in vs sneak and show, reanimator, and rug delver...
vs sneak it can slow them down by a turn and make it so they can't tap out AND force your combo finisher.. they have to choose between spending a turn pondering etc and if they tap out for griselbrand, they wont be able to force you even if they draw 14! =)
vs reanimator, it's just a race anyway and the thorn can help you win the race.. plus thats a terrible matchup so I think all the help you can get will be nice. It stops the 1-turn reanimation too... (read: not turn 1..) so they can't just entomb exhume in one turn and win.
vs rug delver, they only play like what 15 land?? lol thats an exaggeration but seriously they are usually happy to hit 2-3 land and never draw more, so thorn makes them pay for the greed--also, they can't force OR daze while also tapping out for threats (see reasoning above)--and if they aren't laying threats, they simply can't win (rug can only beat elves with disruption + clock...disruption or clock alone doesn't do jack)
Hope this helps, and feel free to let him know if I am wrong...this is just how I do things currently. I love thorns..
I think Thorn slows down our game plan more or just as much as Sneaky Show. Against RUG I ofc thought about their mana and cheap spells, but you have a point about counters. I think I could bring them in =)! And then Reanimate. which is ofc rly bad... I think it's so bad that you don't want to risk losing because you couldn't play your wincon. On the other hand, it gives you time to add a Deathrite or Ooze at the board. Anyway, I have to side out 2 extra cards more than Julian against a lot of the decks that are around ^_^! Guess I΄ll just shave some more creatures or glimpse (vs combo I like to play out my cards and hope for a zenith, fast beatdown or Deathrite shootings).
These are definitely a good idea. I've mostly played NO Elves, so I'm aware of the shenanigans that can ensue with just Quirion Ranger, but these examples helped me learn the interactions that are possible in combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
is there any merit to re-visiting entity elves or speeding things up with a pact build? I am just trying to stay a month or two ahead...since now Elves is on peoples radar (one of the things we had going for us in the past was anonymity), maybe turning to a more combo-centric build would be something to consider. Plus entity elves can aggro out very well, probably better than NO elves (since we don't have to go "all-in" on NO)...is it busted that I wish entity was green?? =/
this deck is obv OP in its current state, but it's an ever-changing beast.. or was.. lol
Any previous Elves list aggroed better than the current list tbh. If Entity was green I would have actually played that iteration of the deck. I love the NO list because we have gone from 4 "important" spells to 7-8 and Progenitus out of the board simply smashes how most decks beat us post-board (Jitte, small sweepers). The older lists are so dependent on Glimpse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagstaman
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
Entity I think is a thing of the past. I would not touch it now that Hoof is a thing. The issue is you can not fetch it so you have to draw or Glimpse into it. This means that insteed of having NO, Glimpse and sometimes GSZ as win cons, you have maybe 3 or four copies of entity.
Pact in Elves has merit, but what would you cut to add it? Also it's primary strength was always alongside Glimpse. Now Glimpse is not the primary win con it's lost a good part of its shine. To me the only card that compares to Pact in the deck is Green Sun's. Between the two of them, Sun's is much better.
Julian's 76 and outline of sideboarding got me top 4 in a local 5 rounder here (And 4-0'd a different local the night before). Brief rundown:
Night before:
Round 1 Elves: My opponent puts me on storm, doesn't have the turn 3 kill and I hoof it up. game two I thoughtseize his only action on my turn two and hoof again
Round 2 Jund: My first few plays get lightning bolted but without punishing fire online eventually symbiote and visionary overwhelm him. Game two involves Punishing fire,E plague, Cage, and Jitte (The latter two eating an abrupt decay). 3 deathrite shamans remove the fires and drain him for the rest
Round 3 Dredge: I get crushed game 1. Game two I mull to 5, he mulls to 4. Thoughtseize reveals a mediocre keep from him and deathrite eventually has him scoop. Game 3 is a quick hoof game i think
Round 4 Goblins: He can't find sharpshooter in time and gets hoofed like the rest. game two is a little scary thanks to pyrokenesis, but deathrite shaman holds back lackey for long enough to NO for Progen
4-0, 8-1 games, +20 credit
The next day...
Round 1 Sneak and Show: I get turn 1 emrakul'd whilst on the draw game 1, then get turn 1 griselbranded again in game 3
Round 2 Imperial Painter: Maindeck viridian shaman does work and Natural order seals it both games rather quickly.
Round 3 UWr Miracles: Established a clock forcing the first terminus then went all in after that. Got lucky here to win it in 2, dryad arbor beats takes the second game.
Round 4 Affniity: Glimpse chains game one into hoof, and Viridian shaman game 2.
Round 5 ID means I'm locked for 8th
Top 8 Shardless BUG: Playing a friend whom I've tested against a lot. I get to slowly draw my deck with symbiote and visionary while holding off goyf until deathrite activations gets there. My double thoughtseize game two clears the path for my deathrite shaman to hold off goyf and eventually produce Progen late in the mix, and as I start to glimpse off the turn after, he just scoops them up
Top 4 Death and Taxes: Aven Mindscensor shuts down the 2 GSZ and 2 NJO in my hand. I get slowly attacked in the air as I draw 5 extra cards with visionary bounces. The last possible turn I cast NO, look at the top for and concede. Game two I draw the darn progen the turn I would have cast NO to find it. I get Mirran crusader + jitte'd. Almost manage to close it out, fail to since I didn't have a second bayou on the field (had drawn the basic instead)
4-2-1, 9-4 in games, +1 polluted delta
8-2-1, 17-5 in games on the weekend while making a ton of hindsight misplays and missing a couple otherwise minor triggers. The deck is really solid, birchlore ranger was very useful both days. Worst cards in the 76 were the Viridian Shaman, Ruric Thar, and the 2 mindbreak traps.
I just have fond memories of smashing people with a lone 6/6 mirror entity...I know that the current list is superior in almost every way, but there is merit to the glimpsey combo versions of the deck--especially mirror matches, where you can go off on turn 2 more often and turn 3 is more or less a guarantee--esp with priests.
has anyone actually had the worldspine wurm do anything or even seen it used? Seems sound in theory but it's eating a sb slot that could be better used imo.. but if anyone has actually found it exceptional in testing or in actual sanctioned matches that'd be proof enough for me.
and am I the only one who will never play without v.sham main? =) card wins me so many game 1s...way more than it loses me- it seems especially nice now that TNN/blade is a thing. Vs MUD, merfolk/DnT (no vial = ez), and random tezz decks it's simply amazing to have access to in the main. Getting turn 1 chalice for 1'd and having no real outs to it is not where I wanna be personally... its obv a meta call, but for open series it's kinda a necessity since they are so wide open.
I have started to use surgical extraction agains deck with removal. Bait with a elf, then opponent lost 4 bolt/StP/decay... and showed his/her hand. SE is right now my most SB used card. Teams well with Decay against Miracle... What do you think?
Skickas frεn min iPhone via Tapatalk
I think it's card disadavantage most of the time and I can't see the reason to run passive control cards in a combo-deckQuote:
Originally Posted by BJeagle
I would take Thoughtseize over Extraction almost all of the uses that Extraction is useful.
+1
+1 her as well.
Since Julians article I use the Thoughtseize split and they are golden in many fair matchups.
1:1 removal is usually not a problem. Taking away the mass removal/last counter/jitte/counterbalance,... kind of cards is way more important.
Played tonight. Went 3-1. The match I lost was against 12 post running Tabernacle. Fucking Tabernacle. That card ate me and I had not a cradle in sight.
I beat Ominshow though a mix of discard and putting out Must counter threats that forced him to pitch his combo cards to Force. That was fun.
The BUG game was a blowout. I never felt like I had any pressure on me. After making me discard my NO he then put out 3 Bob. The last he put out while on 5 life. I just smiled, topped a GSZ and smashed home.
Last game was Stoneblade. No issues thanks to Shaman. The last game drew on but I ended up hard casting hoof for the win.
Highlight was Ominshow. A long drawn out game that I won just though a mass of discard and must Counter spells. When someone is Wishing for intuition just so he can grab Force you know you have the game in hand.
You already had your landdrop for the turn. Gotcha! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeingersh
I will answer some questions that were brought to me over the last days later. I keep browsing the thread at work but you know, sometimes there's actually something to do...as in organizing logistics for the next Magic trip of the team :wink:
Just posted Julian's 76 and Cuneo's recent 75 on the store I frequently order from.
Interestingly enough you can see what they would charge for these decks:
Julian's --> http://www.bazaarofmagic.nl/deck/jul...-di-14092.html
Andrew's --> http://www.bazaarofmagic.nl/deck/and...-di-14091.html
Of course I haven't paid the full cost of what you can buy my deck for on it:
Mine currently --> http://www.bazaarofmagic.nl/deck/nat...-di-14089.html
I suppose both Julian and Andrew have been playing long enough that they've acquired some more epensive cards earlier in their career as well and I actually think the biggest difference between the decks - are the choice and number of fetches :).
Also remember that Cradle recently (within the last 18 months) has jumped ridiculously. I remember in early and mid 2012, US prices had it between $60-$70. Once the legend rule hit, us prices made it jump to $150 average. In euro I got one a few months back for 70, whereas a lot of American vendors are still selling it for $130+. Just depends I suppose. Just saying, those 4 cards account for nearly 1/4 the decks price, while the land in general will account for probably 3/4 (guesstimated). Oh, and it seems the fetch lands are always on a steady rise. Oh, NO has also spiked too in the last 18 months, which I think it is the most expensive non-elf non-land card.Quote:
Originally Posted by PendelSteven
Edit: Cool site I didnt know about before. The deck feature lets you pick the correct version. Fun stuff. http://www.bazaarofmagic.nl/deck/elves-di-14095.html
Oh I was totally shocked to say that 500 of the manabase was the four Cradles. Cashflowwise I've paid 120 for my four over 14 years of time. And to honest, that 120 was this year for the last two, so 60 a piece if you will, but in the end I've paid 30 a piece. Sure, I traded some cards in, but in the end isn't that what we all do to justify the buying/winning of packs? I mean, in my eyes it seems like I've never bought basic lands. But I did and we all do somewhere in our career. It's just that the more you play the more cards you incidentally have.
It's a bit unfortunate that I've really started back playing in the summer of last year, 'cause otherwise I've bought that Birthing Pod preconstructed deck and lo and behold: I already had at least a Wall of Roots, 4 Birds of Paradise and a Spike Feeder since my early days, I unpacked a Reveillark in a Modern Masters winston draft and I'm already playing Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize and Deathrite Shaman in my Legacydeck. Were I to play back in Zendikar-block, I'm pretty sure I would've had a Melira-Pod deck now without much investment.
Alas. I never saw Modern coming. I already had 8 fetchlands which are often enough. And now Verdant Catacombs is a little more expensive than a Natural Order. Actually, at that store, VC is 35 and WF is 36, WH goes for 40 and MR for 50. For me the entry to playing a Junk deck is Modern therefore is 440...
Which is sort of the reason why I don't play Modern.
Yeah. Okay. I've looked into other options landwise today and I'm pretty sure you can run it pretty viably with buddylands first and shocklands secondly along with about 8 basic lands. The upgrade to the serious version is still 440 though.
Oh well. I should be glad I have a sort of completely professional Legacydeck. Yeah, okay, in this version my 3rd forest should be a fetch, but perhaps along the way I'm able to trade a few cards in for a Catacombs or something. It's not that hugely important.
No, I worry more adding two Thoughtseizes and a Worldspine Wurm, so I can more of less transform my deck into Cuneo's. Apart from the 2 fetches maindeck I have the whole decklist except for those.
Actually, that bring me to a question: do we kind of run Birchlore Rangers so we can hardcast Ruric Thar?
As I'm running just 1 Llanowar Elves-or-equivalent-there-of, I'm kinda bebating swapping my last Birchlore out, but keep myself convinced I need Birchlore, while I know I've hardcast one with DRS just fine...
So. Who's for and who's against swapping my Birchlore for a Fyndhorn Elves?
On the other hand: Scavenging Ooze and Thoughtseize have come down from, I think 30 and 50 at a point. Now available for 13 and 16,20 at the same shop. Sure, different prints, but anyhow: on average elves runs about 1 and 2, so that's a pricedrop from 130 to 45,50 (-84,50, -65 %). It's actually from 260 to 90.80 for Cuneo's list (- 169, -65 %)!Quote:
Originally Posted by yaWgnorW