[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

So we are 4 colors and entirely based of a graveyard based combo that requires multiple spells to resolve in order to reanimate a card? I admire innovation but I do not believe that deck to be either consistent nor overall powerful enough to play over other versions.

If we are playing the deck as a control deck then jace is exactly the card that furthers the control game plan (please do not disagree that Jace is not a great control card) and even if we play your more combo orientated deck it would be useful as a way to dig for combo pieces while force the opponent to deal with it while you set your combo up. Dig through time would probably be a better card for your deck any way through.

There are plenty of Nicfit decks that play a more combo orientated kill. Scapeshift and the White angel/spike feeder both being decks that leaned on the combo element quite a bit. Your deck is not even attempting to do anything other than combo so it is different from those sure but I do not think its any better.

Either your deck needs the combo to be extremely fast or very compact. This deck is neither.

That's a rather fast conclusion. It took about a year to develop the intuition build (AND I'm saying my list is subpar compared to the more focused list of the original creator). Your 2 minutes screening of the list without any play testing is something I cannot take serious. If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine, go play Jace. There are better Jace decks than Nic Fit but there are not better combo decks with the hand shredding capability of 4 cabal therapies/2 therapies+hymn to tourach on turn 2.

The game plan of Nic Fit is two fold:
A) Get asymmetric gains from veteran explorer due to the high density of basic lands
B) Accelerate the early game to the end game, while leaving your opponent with nothing to cast / have better stuff to cast than the opponent

Jace is a good card, but there is simply no space for Jace in an optimized version of Nic Fit.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Another really good play is turn 1 explorer into turn 2 cabal therapy, flashback therapy, intent + hymn to tourach.

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I guess there's a second Explorer in the mix there? Otherwise you'll need another creature to sac, and another mana if you don't have Intent.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

That's a rather fast conclusion. It took about a year to develop the intuition build (AND I'm saying my list is subpar compared to the more focused list of the original creator). Your 2 minutes screening of the list without any play testing is something I cannot take serious. If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine, go play Jace. There are better Jace decks than Nic Fit but there are not better combo decks with the hand shredding capability of 4 cabal therapies/2 therapies+hymn to tourach on turn 2.

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And that's an incredibly shortsighted rebuttal when you openly admit the deck is two years old. Legacy has gotten a lot faster and a lot more efficient in that time, what you're doing just isn't powerful or robust enough to warrant such a backdoor way of cheating Griselbrand into play, or comboing with Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare. Am I missing something, or is there nothing to do with that infinite mana to close out the game too?

Infinite mana turns into infinite probe, infinite cards turns into infinite pernicious deed, infinite hymn to tourach and 27 power on the board. That's enough of a win condition.


Yes, legacy has changed and yes the list needs to be updated. Even if I'd pilot this list today it would still hold up quite well though. The speed of the format doesn't really matter when you're shredding hands to oblivion on turns one and two.

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what you're doing just isn't powerful or robust enough to warrant such a backdoor way of cheating Griselbrand into play

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I should mention that Griselbrand can be any bomb, such as Iona, or something else. You can't be serious that reanimating is not powerful enough.

EOT Intuition for
* Unburial Rites
* Gigapede
* Bomb
Upkeep, return Gigapede by discarding bomb or Unburial Rites
Play a land
Flashback Unburial Rites

If you pick Iona against Omnitell after first shredding with therapies, you win the game.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Infinite mana turns into infinite probe, infinite cards turns into infinite pernicious deed, infinite hymn to tourach and 27 power on the board. That's enough of a win condition.

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Assuming this all resolves. I know the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument sucks, but seriously, if you think this can be pulled off that easily you're delusional.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Yes, legacy has changed and yes the list needs to be updated. Even if I'd pilot this list today it would still hold up quite well though. The speed of the format doesn't really matter when you're shredding hands to oblivion on turns one and two.

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Yes, if you'd pilot it today. Which you're not, so what evidence do we have that this is the absolute number one best OMG nic fit EVER!?

Shredding hands into oblivion? Which those 5 discard spells in a format rampant with Brainstorm and SDT. Sure thing buddy.

To quote yourself - 'If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine'

Run this through a gauntlet of Miracles, Grixis and Omni (with non-ape players). You'll get annihilated.

I'm all for innovation in Nic Fit, I've had some wacky brews myself, but claiming something as weak as this to be the be all and end all is a bit silly.

I'll ignore the bit about Jace not being good in a ramp control deck with Pernicious Deed.

EDIT for your edit

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I should mention that Griselbrand can be any bomb, such as Iona, or something else. You can't be serious that reanimating is not powerful enough.

EOT Intuition for
* Unburial Rites
* Gigapede
* Bomb
Upkeep, return Gigapede by discarding bomb or Unburial Rites
Play a land
Flashback Unburial Rites

If you pick Iona against Omnitell after first shredding with therapies, you win the game.

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You heard of this little fellow called DRS? Yeah, he's kinda played a lot in Legacy. So are things like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze, FoW, Red Elemental Blast (maindeck), Cabal Therapies, Thoughtseize...the list goes on.

And yes, reanimating some bomb isn't enough these days to close out a game on their own vs the current metagame. Or, against the decks that it is, like Omni or Delver you're not going to resolve this 'combo', Therapy or not. You're playing a 3cmc spell, then a 4cmc spell and expecting that to be fine?

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Originally Posted by Dissection

Assuming this all resolves. I know the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument sucks, but seriously, if you think this can be pulled off that easily you're delusional.

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When you combo out you combo out dude. That's like saying assuming you get to cast all 10 spells about a tendrils deck, or assuming all this resolves against omniscience. Once you combo, you combo.

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Shredding hands into oblivion? Which those 5 discard spells in a format rampant with Brainstorm and SDT. Sure thing buddy.

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First cabal therapy ALWAYS names Brainstorm in the blind. 5 discard spells, 3 demonic tutors, 4 intuitions. That's 12 cards that can utterly rip your opponents hand apart.

I won't dignify the rest of your comment with an answer as I'm tired of your assumptions. Jace is good, but there are better cards you should use your slots for.

So now are combo deck needs another 2 cards (Witness & Nightmare). I mean sure, if we assemble voltron this sounds like a sweet thing to show somebody but your the one who keeps talking about "optimized" (your word) lists. I dont know where this is I do not play your deck than I cannot critique it culture came from but its not reality. I can tell you that the deck (as you have presented now both a rough list as well as the core idea) is not close to a good enough list. Its slow, reliant on a few cards, and requires quite a lot to go right.

If you disagree with running Jace due to a preference to play some kind of a combo over him I can understand that. However, that does not mean we can not maximize Jace. We have as good if not better tools to protect him (decay being uncounterable and deed being a proactive card you can play to force them to over commit) so I actually disagree that we are not using him as well as other decks. The fact we can also play him turn 3 with multiple discard spells prior, and that in some versions (mine for one) you can pair him with Lily is huge.

I view the "core" of nicfit as the vet therapy interaction. Nothing more. Deed may be replaced, kill cards, splash colors, etc. If you have those 2 cards people will refer to your deck as a nicfit variant. I run a bug version that plays 21 lands as a control deck. I use the interaction (and the probe therapy) to play a land light control deck that can draw a ton more gas as the game goes on. I use dig and jace as the draw engines. I havent played a ton in the last 2 months but I top 8'd an 8 round and have never not at least placed high enough for money back in the weekly 4 rounds that I have gone to.* I do know enough about Legacy to be able to comment on your decklist without wasting my time playing the list you fell in love with 2 years ago.

*For anyone that used to watch Meadhall legacy wed streams, they have changed payout back to cash so starting yesterday. Stream should be more consistent now. went 2-1-1. Lost to cloudpost, drew with cloudpost (in turns but I had jace at 5 and lily at 6 with force in hand) and beat burn. highlight was a 14/14 ooze against burn, and reanimating a glen elendra with the new Liliana. Which I had 1 in the board just to test. I brought it in mostly as a 2/3 lifelinker that can block guide and eidelon.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

When you combo out you combo out dude. That's like saying assuming you get to cast all 10 spells about a tendrils deck, or assuming all this resolves against omniscience. Once you combo, you combo.

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Duh, what on earth was I thinking!? Of course when you combo, you combo. How mindnumbingly stupid of me. Sorry, carry on goldfishing.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

First cabal therapy ALWAYS names Brainstorm in the blind. 5 discard spells, 3 demonic tutors, 4 intuitions. That's 12 cards that can utterly rip your opponents hand apart.

I won't dignify the rest of your comment with an answer as I'm tired of your assumptions. Jace is good, but there are better cards you should use your slots for.

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No, no it doesn't. As my avatar might show, I'm a big fan of the card. As matter would have it, it's my favourite card in the game! You don't snap name BS in the dark, there is so much more to it than that. Anyway, that's another topic for another day.

I actually played the palinchron bug fit 2 years ago. It was terrible then.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

If you disagree with running Jace due to a preference to play some kind of a combo over him I can understand that. However, that does not mean we can not maximize Jace. We have as good if not better tools to protect him (decay being uncounterable and deed being a proactive card you can play to force them to over commit) so I actually disagree that we are not using him as well as other decks.

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I'm not sure what your list looks like exactly, but I think in general that Nic Fit lists do not have enough space to play the number of counters required to let Jace impact the stack. It's nice that you can Brainstorm every turn but if you are drawing into pernicious deeds, liliana of the veil, abrupt decays and veteran explorers, how exactly are you going to beat omniscience? Or lands for that matter? Or even reanimator that can play Ashen Rider on your Jace and exile Liliana on the way out should you have BOTH in play. You will beat fair decks with your Jace, because you are drawing into permanent-based hate. Problem is, you'll be lacking in stack interactions and you don't have a truly broken play. That's why I'm running a very small reanimate package that I can summon up whenever I'm reading to go for it with so much selection. For only a 3 card combo package, I can seal the game most of the time. 3 cards, because Intuition is good enough without unburial rites (Krik doesn't play it). You will beat goyfs with your bug list im sure, heck, you might be fast enough for elves too which is impressive for bug control, but Jace will ultimately be too slow against decks that run the cantrip cartel. Fateseal has lost a lot of its strength with DTT/Ponder/Brainstorm/Probe. I'd rather accelerate into Iona on blue or green than drop a Jace.

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Originally Posted by Paranoid__Android

I know, I know. But, what about an alternative route with Veteran Explorer? Perilous Research is a fun card, and Cabal's discard effect can be replaced with extra drawing into straight counters. :D Just wandering...

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Cabal is the best sac outlet for veteran explorer and you miss so mush if you don't have it. Sounds like you want to build a Bant Midrange deck and it need no Veteran Explorer.

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

Cabal is the best sac outlet for veteran explorer and you miss so mush if you don't have it. Sounds like you want to build a Bant Midrange deck and it need no Veteran Explorer.

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Tbh, Perilous research IS a great card as well.

It is not played because it has to resolve to be able to sacrifice the explorer. What a shame !!!

I had a lot of nasty ideas involving Vet + Perilous + Scape back then... Sort of a RUG Scapeshift !

@ Thread:

I don't understand the hype around Probe + Therapy, unless you are running a deck including 4 ponder + 4 brainstorm (somehow) already.

From experience, here are some food for thoughts (and I remember having this conversation with Qweerios back then on this very thread):

1) It is really really difficult to evaluate an opening hand with a probe in it (except if it is Xmas and you have a Therapy+ black source)
2) The first probe is good. But the others are usually really low compared with Ponder.
3) Our main target is generally getting Therapy + Vet online. Ponder digs more than a Probe in this respect.
4) Overall you lose consistency by replacing Ponder by Probe, from a pure statistical point of view. Probe + Therapy is fantastic but it does not occur on a large basis to make it reliable except if your deck is a cantrip.deck

Can someone enlighten me ? Or is this all about that Grixis Control deck with 12 - 16 cantrips (with "Thought Scour" to mess with opposing BS) ?

Its sad this thread has gotten two pages of action off some wonky untested palincron homebrew but legitimate topics like the correct ratio of stoneforge to equipment, is teeg #2 better then gsz #4 in the current meta or the mentor/top interaction get no attention.

@Ralf -I run 4 probe because I like hitting with therapy for sure on turn 1/2 and I run 3 Digs. I am also not totally sold on it. If you do not like it fine, but I know I have answered the WHY I play it a few times. Whether you think that is worth it or not is still up for debate. you are also not wrong that probe hands are tougher to decide on keeping. The ability to turn Therapy into 100% hit in matchups like omni and miracles early is very powerful. Late game it is just a redraw so the downside as I see it is more on the deck space thing. I amrunning 4 bs, 2 snap, 3 dig, 3 jace and 4 probe so I can sometimes see the idea that there is too much draw and not enough gas. The deck is very consistent however so the question of balance is certainly there.

uncletiggy- Nobody is stopping you or others from teeg or sfm discussions. I personally have very little to say about junk versions as I do not play them. I would run only sofai/bskull if Iwas in a junk with sfm. I also would run a second teeg but without a list I do not know if a 4th gsz would be there. I try to stick the the deck versions I know and have played more which is bug and jund. The discussion was not only over a shitty homebrew but intution in general (which tbh is probably an ok card to consider)and jace and dig in BUG. If people have specific questions I am more than happy to help out. I have been more free for magic and other stuff nowadays.

What's funny is that I generally think that your assessment of which blue cards are strong in nic fit is similar to mine. From our experience, Probe is a house in Nic Fit. At this stage I'd probably replace a couple of things from the list I mentioned such as the recurring nightmare and some other things, but the unburial rites / intuition package I'd keep in. I mean, its been 2 years.

In case anyone was curious, I did not play legacy at Eternal Weekend and just jammed a bunch of vintage instead. Firepaw was present and on the same plan; I don't know who all else was in attendance, but I'm sure a couple of you made and I didn't know.

Got crushed personally, but the 2nd place finisher in the vintage main event is a friend of mine who was using my exact 76. Randy Buehler gushing on stream about Mikokoro for 10 minutes straight entirely my fault -- you can bless me or curse me for that; both options are probably valid in roughly equal measures.

Not sure how Firepaw did in the main, although I do know he was running pretty hot on the weekend whenever I talked to him. We also jammed vintage for like 3 hours Saturday morning and he had Library on the draw at least 60% of his games, so I'm guessing he did fine.

He was on Prodigy Gifts and I was on my Thieves, ofc.

Hopefully I'll see more of you at Eternal Weekend playing vintage next year -- and, of course, hopefully I'll / we'll actually be playing legacy regularly again by then. I don't even care what changes happen in this format at the moment as long as -something- changes.

I agree that vintage is in a really great spot right now. Shops being such a large % of the field, and being an annoying deck to play against can suck but in general I really like where it is at. I also play grixis thieves when I play. I have tested some gifts variants but I just could never get a list that really felt great. Awesome that your buddy was able play that card, I do love it!

As for legacy, I like it too. Since the format has been around their really has always been a tier 1 of 3/4 decks that people say "if you are not playing this why bother" but in locals I still see 15 different decks out of 20 ppl tournies so I am fine with it. I have actually gotten into modern a bit more lately (on Esper Mentor) and it really reinforces why I like legacy, and legacy with cantrips, but to each their own I guess. I am not sure what actual Data Wotc uses to decide on bannings or if they do use data or its just a feel thing but I imagine we might see some type of banning along with an unrestriction. Not that the unrestriction is going to be a card that does anything... that is unless they forget how stupid busted SOTF is. Then this thread could rejoice and begin brewing for the anti-SOTF Survival deck ha!

The intuition discussion has made me think about trying to include some type of compact combo in my bug list. Will think on this...

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I agree that vintage is in a really great spot right now. Shops being such a large % of the field, and being an annoying deck to play against can suck but in general I really like where it is at. I also play grixis thieves when I play. I have tested some gifts variants but I just could never get a list that really felt great. Awesome that your buddy was able play that card, I do love it!

As for legacy, I like it too. Since the format has been around their really has always been a tier 1 of 3/4 decks that people say "if you are not playing this why bother" but in locals I still see 15 different decks out of 20 ppl tournies so I am fine with it. I have actually gotten into modern a bit more lately (on Esper Mentor) and it really reinforces why I like legacy, and legacy with cantrips, but to each their own I guess. I am not sure what actual Data Wotc uses to decide on bannings or if they do use data or its just a feel thing but I imagine we might see some type of banning along with an unrestriction. Not that the unrestriction is going to be a card that does anything... that is unless they forget how stupid busted SOTF is. Then this thread could rejoice and begin brewing for the anti-SOTF Survival deck ha!

The intuition discussion has made me think about trying to include some type of compact combo in my bug list. Will think on this...

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For legacy, I just want one thing. It's very simple. I want a format where RUG Delver is a deck again. I'm not a part of the "ban cantrips" brigade, although I do think that Dig pushes cantrips into an unhealthy extreme. I like interactive games and interactive formats. RUG Delver always has "those draws," but overall I think that that deck being good is a sign of a healthy format. RUG Delver not even existing right now is a symptom of an unhealthy format. I like the format still and do wish to play it (in fact I'm probably playing at Mythic this weekend, but that's more because I want to go to Mythic and hang with friends than because I want to actually play legacy). I'm just stone tired of this Omnitell/Miracles bullshit. Give me an interactive format, please.

Modern....yeah, no. If they ever unban Thopter/Sword I might actually play the format, but I think it's going to take exactly that happening to even get me to POSSIBLY care.

I've been calling a Mind Twist unbanning for a while now, and I still think it's on the table. Unfortunately, it wouldn't even help us at this point unless it's accompanied by a Dig Through Time banning. Survival is obviously the nut high. I both think Survival is a viable unban if they're not going to ban anything, and also that they won't actually unban it, so the point is moot.

Survival's biggest fault, ironically, is being too well designed and too fun. The only reason the card had to be banned was because everyone would just rather play Survival than try to beat it, because the deck is just too goddamn fun. It could be beaten then, and it can be beaten now. I still don't think WotC will actually pull that trigger.

If you held a gun to my head I'd say we're probably a month away from a Dig Through Time ban and something stupid and innocuous like a Memory Jar or Black Vise unban.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Modern....yeah, no. If they ever unban Thopter/Sword I might actually play the format, but I think it's going to take exactly that happening to even get me to POSSIBLY care.

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At least Modern is balanced. It doesn't have 1 or 2 decks destroying everything else.

@Arianrhod- If you ban smth to hurt the blue decks its for sure Dig. There is always the ban brainstorm crowd but I am of the opinion that dig is a huge incentive to play cantrips just as cruise was. They lend themselves to different decks but when cruise was banned and dig wasnt I figured that dig was going to be just as played but the variety of decks because it lends itself to both more styles of decks where cruise clearly had 1 deck that was above the rest.

There are a few unbans that would most likely lead to nothing new in the format (earthcraft and twist would probably be fine) and a few that would be influential in the format (bargain & vise) with SOTF being a new tier 1 deck.

@modern format- It is fine for what it is, its not legacy light but better standard. If you think that format is fine then great, go play it but I do not believe it is healthier nor is it for me more enjoyable than legacy.

@tilzinger -Legacy has 2 decks that destroy everything else? Which? miracles that had 0 Top 8 and 5 Top 32? Omni-tell? grixis/4C delver that just recently became a big thing? Btw, I see you are in Mpls, what stores do you play in for legacy?

The only reason I play Modern is because of better player support in the area. Most of the people that comprised the Legacy scene eventually sold out of their collections and just dumped it into Modern as the Eternal format of choice. No stores in the area or surrounding areas supported Legacy anyway. But, a few have started to slowly buy back in.

That wasn't the point of my post though, lol. I ran the Punishing Nic Fit a couple weekends ago to a 2-2 finish. Technically 1-2 since a had a bye, but I misplayed against Burn in the 3rd game and that cost me. I then played against some variant of Storm and lost in a quick 0-2 fashion. I then beat my friend on Merfolk to finish 9th. I found the deck enjoyable and I plan to stick with it for the time being and improve my play with it. Currently picking up some Savannah's and Scrubland's so I can convert to Junk if need be.

I tried to find a "I win" combo similar to Scapeshift for the Junk build for a while. I'm still not sure but I would like to hear your opinion on this.

Theoretically Leyline of the Void would do some interesting things at the moment - from destroying Dredge/Reanimator to hindering Storm to mess with Dig through Time.

Do you think the time/meta is right for trying a Leyline-Helm combo approach? Based on a Junk shell with Rhinos and including 1-2 Enlightened Tutor for Deed/Helm/Leyline.

All in all it is about 5-7 slots that would instantly improve certain combo MU but gnaw on the consistency of the overall NicFit approach.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

@tilzinger -Legacy has 2 decks that destroy everything else? Which? miracles that had 0 Top 8 and 5 Top 32? Omni-tell? grixis/4C delver that just recently became a big thing? Btw, I see you are in Mpls, what stores do you play in for legacy?

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Maybe I was a bit over zealous with that statement, but I was just thinking about miracles.

I haven't played legacy at a store yet, but when I do it'll be Meadhall. We just got a new puppy so she is taking up nearly all my free time right now. I play modern at Tower b/c its a mile away and they only do 3 matches instead of 4, so I'm home by 9pm.

Has anyone who plays junk tried adding 4 Gitaxian Probes as the only blue splash? I don't own a Tropical Forest, so a Breeding Pool will have to do for now, but with 3 Rhino's and a Swagtusk the life loss should be easily offset for better Therapies and a bit more gas. I'm going to play around with this with some friends and see how it does.

I honestly think the Nicfit shell is (at least right now, if we go back to Maverick vs Rug decks its all good again) is at a disadvantage in the format due to how it plays out. It is a board control deck in a format where most of the powerful/fast combo decks are stack based. This already leads to a hard match up. The main form of interaction most of the decks in this thread have for game 1 is of course the discard, which does not really help unless you can win or set up a lock. Junk builds have the hate bear tactic. So discard into canonis, teeg, etc might be enough. Having a real way to win early or even as Bruizar was mentioning with reanimating a fatty like Iona or Grisel is where I think I want to be. I think if you want to play control in legacy CB/Top is something you need.

I am not sure of all the possible compact combos but the leyline/helm plan is interesting. It does give you a way to win on turn 3 with double therapy. Even without opening on leyline you can still race some of the omni hands if you have vet. If you still play tower you can also just turn 2 someone which would be hilarious out of nicfit. There would both be a junk version (where you get access to Etutor and better backup plan of rhino) or Bug (Force would make it more palatable to tap out for 4 mana sorcery speed stuff, plus the cantrips). This is very interesting.

The other card that came to mind for me was panoptic mirror. Obviously that would be a win with a timewalk effect ala time vault. I do feel this could easily become a rabbit hole of suboptimal cards but its an interesting thought experiment for me if nothing else.

I do not actually own any helms so I will be unable to test any of that tonight.

Edit-@Tilzinger - Mead hall has a great legacy group of regulars that usually show up. The field is pretty diverse. Last week was the first week they moved back to cash and it was short notice but we got 13 ppl for it. (cash was up to $80 back). 2-1-1 is money back so a lot of ppl who are 2-1 by round 4 do draw to just get their cash back and head home at 9. I have been playing there for 2 years and the meta is very good. Last week we had 1 miracles, 2 cloudpost, 1 mud, 1 storm, 1 omni, 1 grixis, 1 burn, 1 belcher, Me (bug nicfit) and a few others.
Edit2- If you come out there and need a trop I do have a 1 that is not in my deck right now. Would just need it back by the end of the night.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I honestly think the Nicfit shell is (at least right now, if we go back to Maverick vs Rug decks its all good again) is at a disadvantage in the format due to how it plays out. It is a board control deck in a format where most of the powerful/fast combo decks are stack based. This already leads to a hard match up. The main form of interaction most of the decks in this thread have for game 1 is of course the discard, which does not really help unless you can win or set up a lock. Junk builds have the hate bear tactic. So discard into canonis, teeg, etc might be enough. Having a real way to win early or even as Bruizar was mentioning with reanimating a fatty like Iona or Grisel is where I think I want to be. I think if you want to play control in legacy CB/Top is something you need.

I am not sure of all the possible compact combos but the leyline/helm plan is interesting. It does give you a way to win on turn 3 with double therapy. Even without opening on leyline you can still race some of the omni hands if you have vet. If you still play tower you can also just turn 2 someone which would be hilarious out of nicfit. There would both be a junk version (where you get access to Etutor and better backup plan of rhino) or Bug (Force would make it more palatable to tap out for 4 mana sorcery speed stuff, plus the cantrips). This is very interesting.

The other card that came to mind for me was panoptic mirror. Obviously that would be a win with a timewalk effect ala time vault. I do feel this could easily become a rabbit hole of suboptimal cards but its an interesting thought experiment for me if nothing else.

I do not actually own any helms so I will be unable to test any of that tonight.

Edit-@Tilzinger - Mead hall has a great legacy group of regulars that usually show up. The field is pretty diverse. Last week was the first week they moved back to cash and it was short notice but we got 13 ppl for it. (cash was up to $80 back). 2-1-1 is money back so a lot of ppl who are 2-1 by round 4 do draw to just get their cash back and head home at 9. I have been playing there for 2 years and the meta is very good. Last week we had 1 miracles, 2 cloudpost, 1 mud, 1 storm, 1 omni, 1 grixis, 1 burn, 1 belcher, Me (bug nicfit) and a few others.
Edit2- If you come out there and need a trop I do have a 1 that is not in my deck right now. Would just need it back by the end of the night.

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I'll warn you off Panoptic Mirror. I actually tried that a couple years ago, it was god awful.

Helm/Line has been something I've been tinkering with on and off because it has two strengths:

-) Combo finish, which we've seen from Scape is very strong
-) Leyline is just naturally good atm, because it shuts off Dig Through Time and friends

Here's the problem with Helm/line: Extra leylines are AWFUL. Junk has nothing to do with extra Leylines at all, you just have to eat them when you draw them. BUG can Brainstorm them away, and can also consider running Perilous Research to ditch extras that were in opening hand -- but at that point, you're putting enough more cards into the already unstable BUG shell that the whole thing just collapses. Well, unstable might be the wrong word -- there problem I've always had with BUG is that there's too many cards I want to run, and trying to squeeze in Helm/line on top of that is just really hard.

@Tom: here's an interesting idea for you. What about actual Veteran Reanimator? I'm imagining a sequence as such:

t1 Vet or Therapy, go.
t2 Vet or Therapy, flashback, entomb, reanimate with 1 mana untapped for like Flusterestorm or some shit

Depending on what you're reanimating, Veteran opens up the possibility for strong backup plans like just casting your fatties (Griselbrand for sure, Iona isn't going to happen, but even casting a couple of them is pretty good). Reanimator's been dabbling with Titan territory lately (Grave to beat Liliana and Primeval to fetch up dark depths), which was our territory first anyway. We can also run our bestie Thrag to gain life for more reanimates.

I have no idea what the list would look like, you just put the idea into my head and I'm spitballing. The idea doesn't actually sound awful on the face of it.

Arianrhod, yea I kind of figured panoptic would be just not good enough. Something about it just feels powerful though. I am certainly realistic with this deck though so ill throw that to the back burner for now.

Leyline helm I feel is viable. We have to figure a few things out before I would run it though. One is what do we do with extra copies, bug has brainstorm and probably jace. I would also guess liliana might be there as well which would provide an outlet as well. Junk is kind of SOL so I would guess you either go on the turbo plan of 4 leyline or I might even think RIP is better. Yes you lose value on vets but I think the idea would be sac vet into RIP next turn helm win. If I was junk I think I would actually skip leyline UNLESS we are brewing for maindeck where we would not probably want a Rip helm version.

Bug reanimator is a bit trickier as the cards aside from the targets (and those too probably) are lot more varied in terms of options. One thing I do want to bring up is that 2 card combos are slightly more risky in a deck like nicfit that already wants certain cards in hand. For example, If we have 2 land, vet, explorer, entomb, reanimate, fluster it is a very specific hand with no room for error. What I am getting at is we already want to have vet therapy and a few lands. I would prefer an engine that is more self contained. Smth like where if you have gifts in hand its only 1 card but it accomplishes the same thing. I am not sure gifts is actually good enough but the intuition idea has me thinking about that.

I do like what you said about the fact that some of the fatty options are hard castable.

Maybe they will unban Bargain? Lol, I mean they let us have 1 that already comes with a 7/7 body.

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I have shared some ideas about a GB Rea Fit list.

I have pondered a lot and unfortunately, there is no space for funky huge monsters unless you have a strong way to discard them or to put back them in the library and even then, I think it would be better to play a standard Reanimator list.

I tried to make a BUG version of a Rea Fit list but eventually failed to it.

Anyway, here are some food for thoughts (that has been tested):

- Prime Titan + DD combo is gross, but it works. Titan remains castable and the synergy with DD+Stage was pretty obvious. Not to mention that reanimating Prime Titan in a deck such as Nic Fit is Xmas in June.

- Uncastable stuff (with CMC > 7) "off color" does not work properly:
1) Dropped Iona
2) Dropped Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3) Griselbrand was castable 1 game out of 20
4) Massacre wurm was castable 10/20
5) Elderscale wurm was castable 10/20
6) Grave Titan is also a very strong option

- Reanimating Prime Titan as your first target is what makes the deck work. Period.

- Two towers + crop rotation are needed to go really "unfair" with super speed and super reliability

- Entomb + loam has a lot of power as well.


The Rea idea is certainly a good one but when I looked into it I hadn't much time to make it works.

Keep us posted anyway !

Here is the latest list we have come up with (6 / 12 months ago):

Rea Fit

1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Primeval Titan
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb
1 Life from the Loam
3 Reanimate
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Natural Order
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 Thoughtseize

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

In case anyone was curious, I did not play legacy at Eternal Weekend and just jammed a bunch of vintage instead. Firepaw was present and on the same plan; I don't know who all else was in attendance, but I'm sure a couple of you made and I didn't know.

Got crushed personally, but the 2nd place finisher in the vintage main event is a friend of mine who was using my exact 76. Randy Buehler gushing on stream about Mikokoro for 10 minutes straight entirely my fault -- you can bless me or curse me for that; both options are probably valid in roughly equal measures.

Not sure how Firepaw did in the main, although I do know he was running pretty hot on the weekend whenever I talked to him. We also jammed vintage for like 3 hours Saturday morning and he had Library on the draw at least 60% of his games, so I'm guessing he did fine.

He was on Prodigy Gifts and I was on my Thieves, ofc.

Hopefully I'll see more of you at Eternal Weekend playing vintage next year -- and, of course, hopefully I'll / we'll actually be playing legacy regularly again by then. I don't even care what changes happen in this format at the moment as long as -something- changes.

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Ended 5-2 in the qualifier (17th on breakers :/) and 6-4 in the main, started 6-2 and then it fell apart
Super happy with the deck, just need to find a better answer to shops decks

Did my weekly at Mead Hall. I do not believe they were streaming last night, tech problems I believe. Anyway, went 3-0 and then drew with my buddy round 4 so we could go as it was already late and he was on a UWr landstill brew that we knew would probably take forever.

Beat reanimator in 2. Stole game 1 off probe therapy vet into turbo jace fateseal. I bring in surgical, negate, ooze and a TS

Beat enchantress in 2. Turn 2 Lily, Turn 3 Jace game 1. Game 2 I had no right to win but then I draw notion thief and my mull to 5 with a bunch of lands is ok. I actually deed for 2 here to leave him with an enchant presence to keep my "draw engine" going.

Beat Dnt in 2. Deed did things to him both games.

I was already brewing a different Bug variant (non-explorer) but work got in the way of getting a solid list so I jammed this and didnt drop a game. List does not feel optimal though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

Game 2 I had no right to win but then I draw notion thief and my mull to 5 with a bunch of lands is ok. I actually deed for 2 here to leave him with an enchant presence to keep my "draw engine" going.

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That's hilarious!

Nice result, too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I have shared some ideas about a GB Rea Fit list.

- Prime Titan + DD combo is gross, but it works. Titan remains castable and the synergy with DD+Stage was pretty obvious. Not to mention that reanimating Prime Titan in a deck such as Nic Fit is Xmas in June.

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I really like this play. All of a sudden you put your opponent in the awkward position of having to answer a 20/20 as well as a primieval titan. Neither can be ignored for more than one turn.

Just ended playing with friends my punishingfit at kitchen table.
First of all junk is more funfriendly than punishing fit... especially when you can't side veterans for carpets... no blue deck's :(
Rhino, showrds/path, elspeth, knight errant rocks in funplay.


I'm totally thinking about changing kessig wolf run for DD+stage (with main primetime) especially when playing with friends.

So I'm pretty much decided to play this reanimator version brew at Mythic on Saturday -- if it's not viable, I'll just fall flat on my face and go 0-3 and hang with friends the rest of the day, so I'm not exactly too worried about it, and then we'll know.

Here's what I'm at for the moment:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Bullshit

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
3 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard will include an Elesh Norn, a Life from the Loam, and 13 other cards.

There's one open fatty slot maindeck for something that I haven't figured out yet. Shaving a Show and Tell is also possible, but I'm not sure what else I'm missing. This is also 60 cards because of the much more combo oriented nature of the deck and the degree to which it wants certain things in its opening hand.

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

Anyone tried the new Nissa yet? Seems very good...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

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I'd stick Elesh Norn in the last reanimation/S&T target slot. It just crushes anyDelver.dec/D&T/Elves/Dredge/Maverick/anything-playing-creatures and lets you turn games around instantly, even if your opponent manages to get rid of it quickly.

Blazing Archon might also be worth running in that slot (or in the SB), since you can expect to be behind on board state by the time you pull off your trick (or just want the ability to turn games 180 degrees vs. opponents that can't get rid of it). Upside of Archon is that it isn't a legend, so you get to ignore Karakas. I've found that to be quite important on a number of occasions.

You might also want to try and run a singleton Diabolic Intent. It can get either part of the trick. If you do, also put a Dryad Arbor in your manabase though, probably instead of a Bayou. Diabolically lets you fetch the body you need to feed the Intent.

It's too bad you don't have room for GSZ, Fierce Empath lets you tutor the fatty you need for S&T and after that is free to be fed to Intent, which either fetches a Cabal Therapy so you can discard said fatty for the reanimation spell you already had in hand, or the S&T you need to plop down the freshly tutored fatty.

I can see the reanimator version to play out very different compared to basic nicfit approaches.
Especially the things to name with therapy are really depending on which one of your 3 plans to get out a fatty you follow.

That said... S&T is in an awkward spot and I think that 2 would be a better number. Instead increase the amount of library manipulation. Without tops you depent heavily on Brainstorms and/or topdecks. 2+ Ponder should be right.

Also you are not very interactive. Aaand LilianaOTV wants to come to the party - don't you think?

But tbh this list is so far away from any NicFit thing I ever played that I can not say how it will do :).

Good Luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

So I'm pretty much decided to play this reanimator version brew at Mythic on Saturday -- if it's not viable, I'll just fall flat on my face and go 0-3 and hang with friends the rest of the day, so I'm not exactly too worried about it, and then we'll know.

Here's what I'm at for the moment:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Bullshit

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
3 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard will include an Elesh Norn, a Life from the Loam, and 13 other cards.

There's one open fatty slot maindeck for something that I haven't figured out yet. Shaving a Show and Tell is also possible, but I'm not sure what else I'm missing. This is also 60 cards because of the much more combo oriented nature of the deck and the degree to which it wants certain things in its opening hand.

Thoughts and suggestions, please! We have a day to get this thing into first draft status so it can be jammed on Saturday.

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This might sound a lot like MTG christmass land, however I would try to find room for 2-3 Tasigurs and 2 Birthing Pods in this list.

Poding Veteran into Jace seems worth a try, also T3 Tasigur into Iona is not that bad :D

Edit: Nevermind, Iona costs 9.. always thought it had CMC 7, but you can tutor up Rune-Scarred Demon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crush

2-3 Tasigurs and 2 Birthing Pods in this list.

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Hmm, delve creatures and Birthing Pods. Now where did I hear this plan before..? Lol

@emuhell: I've been running with an even more outlandish plan for the longest time. What happens is that you try to play out like a combo deck, more or less. During the game, you try and assemble a hand that beats your opponents'. Basically it boils down to you waiting for your opponent to tap out or for you to strip their hand entirely of countermagic/StP and then take over the game. It requires a great deal of patience and restraint, only blindly casting combo pieces/the important stuff when having multiples, to draw out/spend your opponents' interaction so you can outplay them (hopefully).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Hmm, delve creatures and Birthing Pods. Where did I hear this plan before..? Lol

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Probably from me.. I know.. I'd better shut up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crush

Probably from me.. I know.. I'd better shut up.

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Meh, I was on the same train. I even suggested Podding into Fierce Empath to fetch Tasigur :wink:.