[Deck] Death and Taxes

Pretty crappy, Penguinizer. I typically do not do so well against Pox. But then I usually beat Bant and Maverick. Also, I hear about the Finnish nationals every single year. Is it a big event or just the only one nearby?

@DDK: I think most of us agree that Thalia is going to be nuckin' futs. As cool as it is though, I kinda wish it weren't a legend so we could have four. There really is not anything in the deck hurt much by it either. Paying 4 for a weapon can get cumbersome, but we will probably be using Mystics for that. As mana hungry as this deck is, it really does not cast a lot of spells.

It's a 100 or so person event that's held yearly. There are smaller tournaments at least once or twice a month but they don't have anything close to the prize pool the champs get.

Anyways, the Maverick and Bant matches should have been mine but I made some critical misplays or didn't have the right SB cards. With them it could have gone better. Next time's the charm I suppose.

I've tested Thalia in some D&T lists. Just wow. With a karakas or a mom out she's like the most annoying creature ever for decks with tight manabases. Can't be blocked by snapcaster and Delver, make flashback cost for snapcaster a bitch, make most removal irrelevant since it's hard for them to play two removal with increased mana cost in response to the karakas/mom ability etc...

Feelsgoodman

i was wondering if we could use her like isamaru with karakas before the m10 rule-changes, because of first strike

i am not sure if that could work, but in theory it should, but my knowledge of the rules is not the best

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i was wondering if we could use her like isamaru with karakas before the m10 rule-changes, because of first strike

i am not sure if that could work, but in theory it should, but my knowledge of the rules is not the best

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Wow, I haven't realized this before, but indeed you can bounce her after the first strike damage, before regular damage. Also, first strike let you abuse Jitte shenanigans.
I believe she'll be at least a two-of.

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Grafdigger's Cage :1:
Artifact
Creature cards can't enter the battlefield from graveyards and libraries
Players can't cast cards in graveyards or libraries.

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God loves us!

Thalia in testing is good. What do we cut for this creature though? I ran 3 in the main in testing and found it to be too much. I think two is the correct number. I wish it was not legendary to have multiple on the field.

Your guys thoughts on the card?

Timmy, the number to include is going to be heavily influenced by how much the opponents will want to be rid of it. It is remarkably similar to Stoneforge Mystic in that sense. I do not really want to resolve more than one of these in a game. But my opponents are so keen to counter it that I have discovered that the fourth is necessary.

So, if it is truly the bomb that everyone seems to think it will be, we may indeed want three or even four in the main with the expectation that most opponents will have to be rid of it quickly. If it is more situation than it appears, I may go with two in the main and one or two in the side.

@ Finn: Thanks for the response.

I've played this deck for a couple of months before dismantling it and turning it into Maverick. Maybe this question has been asked and answered in this thread, but I wanted to know from the current D&T playerbase why they choose this deck over Maverick? It seems Maverick basically does the same thing, only better.

Mangara of Corondor and Serra Avenger have lost a lot of power in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is all over the place, and it handily answers both creatures before they get the chance to do something. In today's meta, Vindicate seems to be too slow. Not to mention Vindicate with summoning sickness...

D&T likes to play the control role (much like Maverick), but does it really have the same tools to combat the current metagame? Yes, Mangara of Corondor gives great inevitability to the deck, but can Vial and the white utility men really compete with the utility of both a GSZ package and a Knight package?

I'm not looking for answers like: ''Well, clearly not, otherwise D&T would be a deck to beat and Maverick wouldn't.'' Some of you have made the decision of playing this deck, knowing there's a DTB that plays a similar game; creature-based control through utility creatures, coupled with some beef and equipments.

In other words, before Maverick got big, D&T was an obscure deck that a lot of people didn't know or understand. Now that we have a DTB that plays the ''same'' game, I'm sure that a lot of players have a better idea of addressing the D&T match-up (because of experience vs. Maverick), losing some of the strength this deck used to have.

I'm retired from playing D&T for a good couple of months now but would love to hear the insight of the current generation of D&T players as I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for playing this deck. I used to have tons of fun with it.

Maybe Green & Taxes is the direction this deck looks to be heading? Scavenging Ooze could shore up weaknesses that otherwise could only be addressed fom the board.

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Originally Posted by ReinVos

I've played this deck for a couple of months before dismantling it and turning it into Maverick. Maybe this question has been asked and answered in this thread, but I wanted to know from the current D&T playerbase why they choose this deck over Maverick? It seems Maverick basically does the same thing, only better.

Mangara of Corondor and Serra Avenger have lost a lot of power in my opinion. Lightning Bolt is all over the place, and it handily answers both creatures before they get the chance to do something. In today's meta, Vindicate seems to be too slow. Not to mention Vindicate with summoning sickness...

D&T likes to play the control role (much like Maverick), but does it really have the same tools to combat the current metagame? Yes, Mangara of Corondor gives great inevitability to the deck, but can Vial and the white utility men really compete with the utility of both a GSZ package and a Knight package?

I'm not looking for answers like: ''Well, clearly not, otherwise D&T would be a deck to beat and Maverick wouldn't.'' Some of you have made the decision of playing this deck, knowing there's a DTB that plays a similar game; creature-based control through utility creatures, coupled with some beef and equipments.

In other words, before Maverick got big, D&T was an obscure deck that a lot of people didn't know or understand. Now that we have a DTB that plays the ''same'' game, I'm sure that a lot of players have a better idea of addressing the D&T match-up (because of experience vs. Maverick), losing some of the strength this deck used to have.

I'm retired from playing D&T for a good couple of months now but would love to hear the insight of the current generation of D&T players as I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for playing this deck. I used to have tons of fun with it.

Maybe Green & Taxes is the direction this deck looks to be heading? Scavenging Ooze could shore up weaknesses that otherwise could only be addressed fom the board.

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I play both D&T and Maverick, but both decks--at least in my opinion--play vastly different. Mav has some control, sure, but it's ultimately all about giving a dude a stick to beat up your opponent.

D&T does this as well, but plays more of a control game. Rishadan Ports and Wastes deny early mana sources and slow the game down, along with the added time given by thalia. Jotun Grunts shrink yards and goyfs, revokers shutdown some decks completely (and cripple decks like mav) and flickerwisp is seriously one of the most underrated creatures in legacy. When combined with Vial, D&T is able to make things hurt on an opponent's turn, esp. during their upkeep.

Also, Mangara almost never has summoning sickness; you activate the vial EOT and if there is no response, he comes in. He has no ETB to trigger, and since your opponent has passed priority to you EOT, he can't be bolted (unless I'm somehow gravely wrong on how priority works :P) Also, he EXILES permanents, preventing recursion.

I play D&T because I love taxing my opponents to death. Legacy is a money game imo, and I really dislike how people can simply buy their way to the top. D&T is one of those decks that, for relatively little money, is competitive and economic--and really good at punishing the greediest money-decks in legacy.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Also, Mangara almost never has summoning sickness; you activate the vial EOT and if there is no response, he comes in. He has no ETB to trigger, and since your opponent has passed priority to you EOT, he can't be bolted (unless I'm somehow gravely wrong on how priority works :P)

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Once Aether Vial's ability resolves and Mangara is put into play, your opponent has priority and can play any instant he wishes.

Mav and DnT are very different. Mav just presents threat after threat after threat until you die. DnT shuts down parts of your game until it can give a dude a stick and win.

Mav doesn't even really run the same cards as us, apart from the SFM package and Mum. In fact, Mav evolved from GW DnT, and ended up dropping most of the disruption pieces for more beef.

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Originally Posted by trivial_matters

Once Aether Vial's ability resolves and Mangara is put into play, your opponent has priority and can play any instant he wishes.

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Really? even though they've passed priority on their EOT step? I thought that they wouldn't be able to cast a spell until the end of my upkeep.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Really? even though they've passed priority on their EOT step? I thought that they wouldn't be able to cast a spell until the end of my upkeep.

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After Mangara resolves they get priority back, because it's their turn.

But the strategy of threat after threat Maverick is presenting is aimed towards shutting the other deck down, just like Death & Taxes. If you're aggro, I'll get my Knight to block your guys and fetch out a Maze of Ith. If you're Show and Tell, I'd like a Knight to find a Karakas. If you're Dredge or Reanimator, I'll find an Ooze, Thrun for Stoneblade and if you're burn, I'd like Mystic to find me a Jitte. Mother of Runes is there to protect your future bombs from getting answered, which makes it an equally dangerous threat.

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Originally Posted by nwong

After Mangara resolves they get priority back, because it's their turn.

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A step, phase, or turn does not end until both players have consecutively passed priority. If one player vials in a creature at the end of the turn, the other player will have an opportunity to do something before the turn ends. It doesn't matter whose turn it is. So if you vial in Mangara EOT and pass priority, your opponent will have priority one more time and have a chance to remove it if they can.

@Barbed Blightning, I have read other people say that Vial is just like haste with Mangara also. I think they mean that as an approximation.

@ReinVos, pretty interesting question. I have put some thought into this.

Let me begin with the fact that I have never used Maverick proper, and my only experiences with the deck come from facing it with D+T. It does not usually go well for Maverick. The reason, I think, is because Maverick is tuned for a metagame that does not include D+T. It has three different search engines in the same deck. That is pretty amazing really, but it also means that there are a decent number of bad cards in any Maverick deck against something like D+T. I bring this up primarily because it is case in point for how the decks differ.

Maverick reactively calls up specific answers to handle the threats that it faces. By contrast, D+T proactively uses generic effects (taxes) that dilute or limit the effectiveness of whatever opponent it faces. This is certainly not a rule of thumb. After all, the two decks share a lot of common elements so they must overlap in a few ways. And it is not even a proper description in terms of time. But, when looking for differences, that seems to highlight the broad outlines. This has implications for a number of different aspects of play.

When using Maverick, you really have to know your deck. You have to be able to analyze what is the right card to fetch to handle the game state. In D+T, you also really have to know your opponent's deck too. Your tools are not straight forward so you have to be able to know the way to disrupt so that it hurts the opponent most using nibbling tactics instead of gulping tactics. It is not for everyone.

For Mav, a good pilot is necessary, but it is only as good as the answers it runs. Because the tools in D+T are so malleable, there is greater room to outplay your opponent. For D+T, good answers are necessary, but it is only as good as its pilot.

That is why D+T beats Mav, I think. D+T's tools are not hoping to see a Maverick-type of opponent either. But they are agile enough to adapt on their own where Maverick can sacrifice a bit of tempo here and there to fetch imperfect tools from its deck. It is the same for D+T against any opponent that is permanent-dependent (rather than stack-dependent).

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Originally Posted by Justin

A step, phase, or turn does not end until both players have consecutively passed priority. If one player vials in a creature at the end of the turn, the other player will have an opportunity to do something before the turn ends. It doesn't matter whose turn it is. So if you vial in Mangara EOT and pass priority, your opponent will have priority one more time and have a chance to remove it if they can.

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But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

The key word is "consecutively" pass priority. After Vial is done resolving, priority returns to them because they are the active player.

As for Flickerwisp, if you play one and target your own Wisp, at end of turn, your exiled Wisp will return. You can then exile something with it. This will have missed the "at end of turn" trigger, and the permanent will return at the next opportunity, ie. at the end of the next turn, not the current one.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

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Okay, so its during your opponent's end step. They pass priority. You tap Aether Vial. You pass priority to see if your opponent has any responses. They have no responses to Aether Vial, so they pass priority. Aether Vial's ability occurs and you put in Mangara. Your opponent, the active player, then gets priority with nothing on the stack. He can bolt it at that time. If he does not bolt it, and instead passes priority, you then can pass priority back and then proceed to your turn.

But there is nothing to respond to, and they have already passed priority. That's my point--how would they get priority after passing it? They have a chance to respond, but only to the vial activation.

I'll ask an official on this, just want to make sure I understand how this works. :P

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

But you're vialing him in after they pass priority during their end step. They can respond to Vial's activation (stifle, etc) but unless mangara's causing an ability to trigger (intruder alarm, say) there is nothing to respond to, thus no chance to bolt him. In fact, the proper way of using vial is to announce that you are activating it, and not overstepping your bounds by immediately tossing your dude out.

This is all knit picky, and I'm probably incorrect on turn structure, but I want to make sure I get these things straight before I go to the GP in march. :P

While we're on the topic of rules nonsense, can someone explain to me how flickering a flickerwisp flickers out another permanent through the next turn?

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To be more specific on what I said earlier, a step/phase/turn does not end until both players consecutively pass priority with an empty stack. If a Player A passes priority during the end step, but Player B then puts something on the stack (such as an Aether Vial trigger), Player A will have priority again before the turn ends. The stack does not become empty until that trigger resolves. When the creature enters the battlefield, the turn will not end until both players consecutively pass priority with an empty stack. Player A can still remove the creature or do anything else.

As for the Flickerwisp question. The errata says "Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the BEGINNING of the NEXT end step." The key words are BEGINNING and NEXT. So if you vial in a Flickerwisp during an end step and exile a permanent, then that permanent will not return until the next player's end step. A permanent is not exiled and returned during the same end step.

BB, after the stack resolves active player gets priority again. A step (or phase) does not end until both players pass on an empty stack.

EDIT
Ahh, ninja'd

What happens is:
During the endstep, Active players passes priority to you
You respond with Vial activation
You pass back priority to him and he passes it back, and with both players passing it without any action, the top part of the stack resolves, which is the Vial activation, you now put in Mangara
At this point, he then has priority once more, and he can do things such as STP-ing your Mangara until he passes it back to you. When he passes without doing anything, and you pass just the same, then and only then will you move to the next phase or the end of the turn.

2 players must pass priority without doing anything before a step on the stack or a change in the phase can resolve/happen.

That's how I understand it.

Edit: Who said only Blue players love the stack? Haha

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Edit: Who said only Blue players love the stack? Haha

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:D
where is facebook's like it button ?


this conversation helped me out a bit too, now i can explain my friend why i was in the right, thx

btw, has anyone tested a lot with thalia, guardian of thraben (hope the name is right), as i would love to see your feedback on her, as she looks quite good, and an addictional creature to abuse both jitte and karakas

I've tested Thalia vs. Reanimator, Burn, Zoo, Nic Fit, UW Stoneblade/Counterbalance and a D & T mirror on Cockatrice this weekend and loved it in every game but the mirror. Even against Zoo it was excellent. I maindecked 3.

In 5 of the 6 matches, it had major applications in delaying my opponent until I gained control.

Nic Fit found itself one land behind nearly every game. It delayed Pernicious Deed, Green Sun's Zenith and acted as a great tax. Its not a game breaker but it was a nice supplement to Wasteland, Port and Mangara.

UW Stoneblade/Counterbalance Forced it when it could. Its a must answer for them during the early game. This leaves them fewer answers to handle Mangara, Vial and Mother of Runes. For example, I landed Thalia turn 2. This made them tap out to pay 3 for a Counterbalance. On my turn I cast Mangara unapposed. I didn't have to worry about countermagic. Its not an I win card but it forces them to make more choices, allowing more playing mistakes. Its great spell snare bait allowing you to land a Stoneforge later on. However, this is already a good matchup.

Burn hated it. Lost them tempo and eventually the game once jitte came online. Still a tough matchup. Its only a speed bump but it handles Goblin Guide and demands a removal spell. That's 3 less damage to my head. Its definitely a card you want in your 75.

It made the Reanimator match even stronger. Thalia was Forced when my opponent finally realized what she did. When it landed it gave me several extra turns of development to solidify my position. Serra Avenger with a Mother of Runes kills/delays Reanimator anyway.

Zoo: Laid a turn 1 Vial. My opponent landed a Taiga for a Nacatyl and passed.
I upped my vial to 1, wastelanded the Taiga and took 1 from the Nacatyl on my opponent's turn. It seems he kept a one land hand. Vialed in Mother.

Turn 2 I played a Karakas and vialed in Thalia. I had 2 Avengers in hand. My opponent scooped. Thalia effectively acted as a pseudo Leonin Arbiter that can bounce back to your hand. Its good.

Death & Tax mirror: It dies to itself and is bounced by Karakas. Sideboarded it out.

Thalia synergizes with this deck. Thalia supports the tax aspect and barely even slows you down. It combos with Stoneforge, Wasteland, Port and Karakas. Thalia's first strike allows it to be a threat and stay alive despite its 2/1 stats. It loves equipment. I was never unhappy to see it early, even when I had 2 in hand. If you cast it early, you tend to be winning. I think 3 is nearly mandatory and vs. some matchups, 4 is perfectly acceptable.

It hates on control, combo, spell based decks and doesn't die immediately vs. aggro. For example, its maindeck storm hate, delays the dreaded Show and Tell by at least a turn and is strong/acceptable in nearly all other matchups. Its not even double white which makes it better than Abolisher and it doesn't affect Stoneforge like Leonin Arbiter. It makes your strong matchups stronger and shores up your weak matchups.

Its all that and a bag of chips while not being obviously overpowered. And we are one of the few decks that can really use it which may keep the price low. :)

Over the weekend went 12/3 with game losses to Reanimator, D and T, and Nic Fit. Won all 6 matches.
However, its not the strongest card late game. And it effects your ability to cast some of your sideboard cards.

P.S.: Seriously though, it did little to nothing in the Death and Taxes mirror. :) Sword of Light and Shadow was an MVP.

Hello,
Now that thalia is part of DT, is flickerwisp worth the slot ?, I know it has bags of tricks but at times it boils down to stabilizing board position or holding off opposing creatures. Flickerwisp can save you 1 turn but after it passes it just becomes a 3/1 flyer which is not a bad clock.

I've been testing DT on mws this weekend and haven't missed it, mirran was solid in my testing, it provided me a faster clock after locking my opponents with ports and thalia.

I also have 2 glowriders in my sideboard for added disruption.

As for thalia count currently im running 3, i think its the right number aswell as like what the above posters, when it hits the board i will have a high probability that it will get countered or killed afterwards.

But when the opportunity doesnt present to maximize wisp's ability it just becomes a 3/1 flyer. Im sure there is a 50% chance that wisps just becomes a 2cc 3/1 flyer targeting your own land or some random stuff. This is whats bugging me when it comes to this event i feel mirran is superior to wisp or im still missing something.

All right, I've seen the light; I'll stop badgering y'all with my stack-related inquires. :P

@erbs: Flickerwisp should always stay at 4x. No question--it's just too useful. Mirran is just swords/grim/bolt fodder in my opinion--a great beater, but at the end of the day, just a dumb beater. Flickerwisp has so many more applications that you're only targeting your own land (or something along those lines) when you've got the game under your thumb. Even if you're backpedaling, flicker is still great for SFM tutoring, taking out attackers/blockers, and the aforementioned tricks.

My point is that Flickerwisp is as aggressive as Crusader, yet as controlling as Mangara. Whereas Mirran waits a turn before he rages all up in your opponent's grill, Flickerwisp immidiately messes with them, and repeatedly swings afterwards, lest they sacrifice their clique/whatever. Also, Wisp looooves holding a sword.

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

Hello,
Now that thalia is part of DT, is flickerwisp worth the slot ?,

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I feel Flickerwisp is one of the most flexible creatures in the deck. Its not an offensive powerhouse like Mirran Crusader however. It won't outright win you the game and make you write an article about it. What it does is supplement your strategy subtly. It does everything sort of well, and on occasion, backbreakingly well. Don't think of it as a creature. Think of it as utility/combat trick with a creature thrown in.

I tend to wait to cast it or vial it in for best effect. I don't think of it as a beatdown creature very often unless I have no other creatures on board. This means it can wait in my hand for several turns before I use it.

With Mirran I would cast it immediately and beat face.

Mirran Crusader: (Power option)
Evasion: Pro Green and Black:
Double Strike: Ends the game quickly. Its a beater. It does what it does well, but that's all it does.

Flickerwisp: (Swiss army knife option)
Evasion: Flying
Flicker ability: Bounces equipment, resets counters, gets rid of blockers, gets rid of attackers, saves your creatures, Combos with Mangara and Stoneforge, etc.

Both: Dies to removal. Both are great with equipment, Mirran amazingly so.

Your playstyle will probably determine which card you like better for D and T. Make this comparison: Which would you rather have? A Tarmogoyf (power) or a Qasali Pridemage (tricks)? Knight of the Reliquary does both, but that card is AUTO include in Maverick.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

@erbs: Flickerwisp should always stay at 4x. No question--it's just too useful. Mirran is just swords/grim/bolt fodder in my opinion--a great beater, but at the end of the day, just a dumb beater. Flickerwisp has so many more applications that you're only targeting your own land (or something along those lines) when you've got the game under your thumb. Even if you're backpedaling, flicker is still great for SFM tutoring, taking out attackers/blockers, and the aforementioned tricks.

My point is that Flickerwisp is as aggressive as Crusader, yet as controlling as Mangara. Whereas Mirran waits a turn before he rages all up in your opponent's grill, Flickerwisp immidiately messes with them, and repeatedly swings afterwards, lest they sacrifice their clique/whatever. Also, Wisp looooves holding a sword.

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Its true that Flickerwisp has lots of applications and one of the its most important trick is what you said about waiting a full turn..

But what if the tricks of your wisp is not needed or there is no opportunity to use it. A sample scenario. You have 1 rishadan port and 3 plains, and 1 thalia in play, while your opponent has 2 island 1 tundra 1 plains and no creatures.., you have 3 wisps on your hand so im sure you will still cast wisp as you need to aggro your opponent scenarios like this is what im saying or you just need a creature.

Having a 4 count in your deck it will surely be present in almost all games..., and im sure you guys have encounter this that you have no other creature expect for 2-3 wisp.., i doubt if you will wait for the right opportunity to cast.

Both of them dies to the most common removal wisp can't block a 1/1, wisp is weaker against jitte. Both of them are good equip carriers as one has double strike and an almost evasion ability bec of prot green, most common creatures are green anyways. While wisp has flying.

I guess what im trying to say is when you have established a soft lock by port and thalia what you need is a quick beater that is somewhat hard to kill. mirran atleast is good against black and green while wisp can be hit by black removal and can be blocked by any 1/1 vanilla creature.

Mirran is a much better jitte holder

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Originally Posted by Wynk

I feel Flickerwisp is one of the most flexible creatures in the deck. Its not an offensive powerhouse like Mirran Crusader however. It won't outright win you the game and make you write an article about it. What it does is supplement your strategy subtly. It does everything sort of well, and on occasion, backbreakingly well. Don't think of it as a creature. Think of it as utility/combat trick with a creature thrown in.

I tend to wait to cast it or vial it in for best effect. I don't think of it as a beatdown creature very often unless I have no other creatures on board. This means it can wait in my hand for several turns before I use it.

With Mirran I would cast it immediately and beat face.

Mirran Crusader: (Power option)
Evasion: Pro Green and Black:
Double Strike: Ends the game quickly. Its a beater. It does what it does well, but that's all it does.

Flickerwisp: (Swiss army knife option)
Evasion: Flying
Flicker ability: Bounces equipment, resets counters, gets rid of blockers, gets rid of attackers, saves your creatures, Combos with Mangara and Stoneforge, etc.

Both: Dies to removal. Both are great with equipment, Mirran amazingly so.

Your playstyle will probably determine which card you like better for D and T. Make this comparison: Which would you rather have? A Tarmogoyf (power) or a Qasali Pridemage (tricks)? Knight of the Reliquary does both, but that card is AUTO include in Maverick.

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Another thing thats somewhat off for me in wisp is that its very very vial dependent for to be able to play its tricks especially in combat.

I will not deny that wisp literally gave me the win bec i was able to reset a revoker or remove a blocker or attacker or equip. But now that thalia is here i feel what you need is a faster beater.. adding them both would be nice but the curve is toooo heavy making you slow.

Flickerwisp really works well with revokers as this is my common use for it resetting revoker and naming something else.

Thats why im confused if i'll pick wisp or mirran both for me are really good. But like what i've said now that thalia is part of DT soft lock + quick kill is what you need and can standup against the most common creatures as thalia only stops spells creatures aren't affected. Green for me is the most common creature in legacy thus even if your opponent gets to cast a tarmo or kotr you have the option to defend or aggro him down, while if you have wisp.. chances are you'll tend to hold back and wait for your equip as it can't block a bigger creature.

Both of them almost has the same damage 3 vs 4 but mirran can hold off any green creatures and is insane with jitte.

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

I A sample scenario. You have 1 rishadan port and 3 plains, and 1 thalia in play, while your opponent has 2 island 1 tundra 1 plains and no creatures.., you have 3 wisps on your hand so im sure you will still cast wisp as you need to aggro your opponent scenarios like this is what im saying or you just need a creature.

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Actually, that's a perfect scenario. Play the wisp targeting your land. Now you have a 3/1 flyer, a Thalia, and enough mana to port again in their upkeep.

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Originally Posted by Wynk

Actually, that's a perfect scenario. Play the wisp targeting your land. Now you have a 3/1 flyer, a Thalia, and enough mana to port again in their upkeep.

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Isn't it somewhat redundant already as you have already thalia in play.., and wisp tricks is only applicable 1 turn..

Its even better really. Before you were preventing them for making optimal use of one of their land. (Thalia). Now you are preventing them from making use of 2 of their land. Port). They went from 4 mana to 2. And you have effectively a 2 mana beater. (Flickerwisp).

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Originally Posted by Wynk

Its even better really. Before you were preventing them for making optimal use of one of their land. (Thalia). Now you are preventing them from making use of 2 of their land. Port). They went from 4 mana to 2. And you have effectively a 2 mana beater. (Flickerwisp).

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Wisp is somewhat a 2cc beater but still needs 3 mana to be able to cast it. Wisp can only stall your opponent for 1 TURN i will not deny sometimes that 1 turn can give you the win.

But if your on the defending side which most likely has a higher chance of happening especially against fast decks, wisp is somewhat crappy during those situations. You already have managara which needs a full turn before you are able to use it as its too slow against some decks aswell.

You can't always rely on your mana disruption as it doesn't come out every game. While DT tends to be really slow as compared to other decks. Thats why i feel mirran can somehow stabilize your board for you to be able to recover.

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

You can't always rely on your mana disruption as it doesn't come out every game. While DT tends to be really slow as compared to other decks. Thats why i feel mirran can somehow stabilize your board for you to be able to recover.

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No doubt regarding the slowness of this deck vs. something like Zoo. I'm just using the scenario you presented earlier regarding the usefulness of Flickerwisp with 4 lands on the board.

Mirran Crusader has its own benefits as well. In your scenario, its a big wall or a 5 turn clock - attack it and die or block it and die. It puts pressure on the opponent early. Flickerwisp is more reactive.

Mirran Crusader is powerful. its just if I wanted power, I'd play Maverick and use KotR. Maverick was essentially Green and Taxes that slowly faded out the tax portion of the deck for power. Its successful, so that's a valid tactic.

Playstyles differ.

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

Its true that Flickerwisp has lots of applications and one of the its most important trick is what you said about waiting a full turn..

But what if the tricks of your wisp is not needed or there is no opportunity to use it. A sample scenario. You have 1 rishadan port and 3 plains, and 1 thalia in play, while your opponent has 2 island 1 tundra 1 plains and no creatures.., you have 3 wisps on your hand so im sure you will still cast wisp as you need to aggro your opponent scenarios like this is what im saying or you just need a creature.

Having a 4 count in your deck it will surely be present in almost all games..., and im sure you guys have encounter this that you have no other creature expect for 2-3 wisp.., i doubt if you will wait for the right opportunity to cast.

Both of them dies to the most common removal wisp can't block a 1/1, wisp is weaker against jitte. Both of them are good equip carriers as one has double strike and an almost evasion ability bec of prot green, most common creatures are green anyways. While wisp has flying.

I guess what im trying to say is when you have established a soft lock by port and thalia what you need is a quick beater that is somewhat hard to kill. mirran atleast is good against black and green while wisp can be hit by black removal and can be blocked by any 1/1 vanilla creature.

Mirran is a much better jitte holder

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If the decide to waste that removal on wisp and not, say, mother of runes or stoneforge, more power to them.

My point is that, while crusader is undoubtedly powerful, it's pointless to add a singleton of him to the deck. it trades the consistency of having a wisp available (which you could need for mangara/tricks, disruption etc) for the possibility of a beater. Do a 2-2 split and you'll find yourself in situations wanting one or the other, but not having them. Since D&T has no draw manipulation, playsets are the only means of ensuring consistency.

I agree with Wynk: if you want to play with powerhouse creatures, play Mav. If you want to play more control, play D&T.

Don't you find yourself mostly on the defensive side playing DT...

Actually thats my reason why i tried running 4 mirran over 4 wisps..

You want to be on the defensive with D+T. The hardest matchups are the ones where you have to go aggro before you are ready. Think Landstill, Monoblue, storm, and Elf combo. We are at our best when we can slow the opponent with exactly the kinds of trick Wisp exemplifies.