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Thanks guys, I'm definitely gonna put something together and goldfish for awhile (a long while). To me, playing without burning wish seems like a poor choice, as drawing useless cards that i could easily wish for wouldn't be great. I'll proxy for now, and let you guys know how it goes.
So what do the latest lists look like? I got the point that UBrw lists are being used now, with 3 Wishes? Be nice if Silent or emidln post something for me :cool:
Ask and ye shall receive. :tongue:
Here's the list that took 28th place at GP Amsterdam last year (1000+ players):
1 Badlands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
17 lands
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
3 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Orim's Chant
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Silence
Sideboard
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Deathmark
1 Doomsday
1 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Pulverize
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Spiral
Here's the list that recently came in 5th at BoM (700+ players):
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
3 Orim's Chant
1 Rain of Filth
4 Silence
3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Ponder
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
2 Serenity
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Doomsday
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Massacre
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Spiral
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Petals vs 2 Petals seems pretty drastic. Is that some sort of deck evolution over the last year, or just his personal list? Also, what do you run?
edit: value of Rain of Filth? Serenity also looks weird to run when this deck runs 4 SDT itself.
Four Petals is necessary if you want Ad Nauseam to be a legitimate plan B. Otherwise, most piles only call for one Lotus Petal, if any. So, if you decide not to run Ad Nauseam, Lotus Petal becomes far less important (although there is an element of "explosiveness v resilience" to consider too).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
Rain of Filth is brokenly good, although these lists don't abuse it as much as some. It's basically the 5th Dark Ritual most of the time, but in long games it generates huge amounts of mana on the combo turn, powering the piles you need to fight through the hate.
However Rain of Filth is even better in Meditate lists, which tend to run some number of Cabal Rituals because they don't need to float as much blue mana. And of course, getting threshold is pretty trivial if you have Rain of Filth in hand.
I can't comment on Serenity, as I've never run it, other than to say that it seems a pretty common sideboard choice. Remember that Top can save itself in response to the trigger.
Im not a huge fan of serenity. I think it was originally used to combat mavericks hatebear of choice (ethersworn cannonist) through a mother of runes. Since the printing if thalia and other non-artifact hatebears come to the fore, I think it loses some of its utility. Its still super-awesome against chalice/stax type decks and can get rid of a counterbalance (although that could be somewhat of a push if its active...). Not to mention its hilarious 'one sided obliterate' uses vs affinity :D.
Also for people moving to the red builds... I know that burning wish is basically demonic tutor for the deck, but a lot of my kills (with the black/blue/white build) come from T1 cantip T2 IT ---> mana T3 profit. The piles for IU are cheaper, but there always seems to be less mana available for me when going off anyway, so it seems a bit moot that the piles are cheaper. Do you never miss the extra mana to power through the hate?
Also, I love tendrils in the main. it enables some funny 'bait storm and kill you'/IGG (yes, im still there :)) efforts. Im not quite sure that no wincon main is as strictly better as people say. Its not like we dont run cantrips to avoid/shuffle it away if there is no value to drawing it.... Just thought i'd share :).
The Spanish Tunnel King
4 LED
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 SDT
4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Doomsday
1 Tendrils
1 IGG
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
This is what I've been working on lately. The mana is much better, it feels like I can more consistently go off on turn three. I'm still hammering out the SB.
Confused about this thread,why isn't this called Doomsday?
I was hoping to compare with ANT,is there an actual Fetchland Tendrills list on the thread?
From the OP...
Fetchland + Tendrils has turned into many different magic archetypes, TES, ANT, Doomsday, Etc. Ad Nauseum Decks got their own thread, TES is a different beast and thus got its own thread, and this is still a Fetchland tendrils deck that fits into none of the above categories.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
is there a doomsday pile that lets you win ( infinite loop what will let you tendrils for as much as you want ? ) with omniscience ?
If you have Omni in play why would you bother with Doomsday? You can just burning wish into Petals of Insight (or really anything that recycles itself) into grapeshot/tendrils and win on the spot. The two cards together in one deck doesn't really make any sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
Why would you ever play omniscience in this deck??Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
If I have Onmi in play ... I would not doomsday ... that was not my question .Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
I was wondering if we could use doomsday as a tutor effect ( so you can tutor the combo pieces )
Ex:
You doomsday
Pile can be something like :
- brainstorm
- show and tell
- Omni
- draw spell
- kill con
This way you need only one show and tell and one omni as your win con... and you can maximize your deck space for more protection or tutors
Just for answering the question with a few thinking for infinite loop you'll need 2 Doomsdays, a kill condition, a Top, Meditate. then add SnT + Omniscience. So except from the pile you must have enought mana and other condition conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
how about :Quote:
Originally Posted by blaggro
a pile of ...
Brainstorm
show and tell
Onmi
burning wish
tendrils
that's an infinite loop
I've also (finally) settled on UBw Doomsday, probably for much the same reasons as you - I like a more stable mana base and I find that only needing two colours (three if I need protection) makes me faster, which is relevant in a lot of matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Slayer
I'm running Meditate over Ideas Unbound (simply personal preference), though, so the 4 Probes come out and are replaced with 2 Cabal Ritual (<3), Karakas and a Lotus Petal.
I'm not certain this deck wants less than 17 lands, and another land is my 61st card. How has 16 lands (with no Petal!) been working for you?
Can u explain me how this is an infinite loop? i'm telling this because i wouldn't cut any sb card for petals of insigh.. If you want to play Omniscience and win throught storm you can just play SnT deck and win with petals. There's no reason to do this to this deck because it loses it's concistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
Omniscience in doomsday combo?! Serious?
Back to some Tendrils...
I´ve been playing something like this on and off again, with only -1 Ponder, -1 Probe, +1 Petal, +1 Scrubland. I do agree that you could possibly cut one land if you´re on Ubw only, but cutting a Petal seems just wrong. The most standard piles require a Petal and spending an extra turn to meet the minimal requirements hurts a deck like this, which can be attacked from various angles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Slayer
If you have the full set of Brainstorm, Ponder and Probe available, I guess IGG or IT could get the axe but I´m still not sure about it.
I don't see, why you absolutely need a Lotus Petal in that list. Most of the time you are setting up double cantrip piles anyway, where you don't need a Lotus Petal. I don't like the Chain of Vapor in that list. In the current metagame the only permanent based hate, that opponents play are Gaddock Teeg and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Therefor I like a Karakas way more in that slot and it's an additional land. I never felt comfortable playing the deck with "only" 16 land.
Also don't see the point of petal in the UBw list posted above. Seems like a waste of space. I wouldn't cut IGG from the list though, as 7 chant effects make that IGG look amazing. If you wanted to play a petal you could MAYBE cut an infernal tutor as playing 3 isn't going to make your deck terrible as you then have 7 business spells and that seems perfectly fine seeing as how Lejay's list currently has 6 business spells (3 DD and 3 Wish ideas unbound doesn't really count as a business spell since it's card disadvantage typically. At least with meditate you could occasionally cast it EoT against control and they would practically have to counter it or else risk losing to your 10 card hand when you untapped.) Hardcasting DD off of just lands and a petal isn't particularly appealing to me either as wasteland can make that plan quite tricky to pull off sometimes and I don't want to lose to wasteland in a deck with 3 basic lands. I'd much rather be running a singleton cabal ritual over a singleton petal in the list as cabal ritual actually casts DD while petal isn't guaranteed to cast DD.
You could place omniscience under shelldock isle although I don't see the point of that really although you could theoretically win when you untapped with shelldock hiding omniscience it requires more hoops to jump through to win with petals of insight unless you're running with sparkcaster to ping them to death although that opens you up to creature removal unless you have a chant effect in hand or something or you have exactly 3 cards in library after you draw so you can brainstorm into sparkcaster + silence. Although I don't see how this is any better than emrakul other than karakas foiling the emrakul plan unless you put your own karakas in the pile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
And this pile just wins for 3 mana and a draw including protection:
Brainstorm
Mental note
Laboratory maniac
Pact of negation
Unearth
I'm a big fan of melting infernal Tutor, LED with the Doomsday-Maniac kill
I'm pretty sure that everyone saying to cut Lotus Petal has never actually resolved Brainstorm in this deck. The ones wanting to cut Petal from lists with Meditate (which is still wrong, unless played in addition to your Ideas Unbound) probably haven't stopped to think about how they were going to win with just SDT in play and no spare cards in hand. (If you said have fewer storm or pay an additional mana, you win.)
My list, even though I have been playing other decks lately due to too much combo hate around, is very similar to the UBw one posted above, but:
17 lands (one Karakas). 16 seems low-ish...and even with 17 I sometimes had to waste my cantrips for finding lands. You can easily cut one Infernal Tutor, it's one of the worst cards in the deck unless you're going for IGG-loop. IT can easily get an axe - it's very rare to find zero action even without full sets of Probe and Ponder (see explanation below).
I am playing 2 Lotus Petals instead of one Probe and one Ponder - it helps to speed up the deck, opens some additional DD piles and, one of the most important things - lets get mana for protection without a risk of getting my lands wasted or fetching a basic Plains (which is rather uncomfortable most of the times).
I do intend to pick up DDFT again as nobody risked playing Storm during last few local events and MB Traps are already leaving sideboards :cool:
Edit: also I'm still playing Meditate - even if IU makes (sometimes) for better piles, having almost whole deck immune to Spell Snare (IT-IGG plan isn't reliable against decks packing Snare anyway) and being able to sometimes draw4 still makes me happy.
I ran something like this last time I tried DD. There is hardly any Spell Snares anymore, so IU seems fine. I used to run 2 Cabal Rituals (and 0 RoF) for IGG, but I think we're fine without them. Not sure if the MD Chain is needed though. I was happy with 16 lands and 3-4 petals, but a 17th land (1st Marsh Flats) is welcome if space is made (my list with Meditate ran 1 probe only to make space). IT is not that great as a setup spell in the deck, but adds speed to the deck against aggro and makes you lose less games due to not finding action.
4 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
4 Silence
2 Orim's Chant
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
That all said, white is not at its peak. Discard is better against Show & Tell, Reanimate, Counterbalance and it can be equal/better against non blue decks. It could be an option to cut white and splash green from the board (Xantid Swarm for Merfolk/SnT/Reanimate, Carpet of Flowers against RUG and perhaps a Grip or 2 against CB).
16 lands has been fine. I could definitely see cutting the COV for Karakas or cutting one IT for Karakas though. IGG has been awesome. There is a lot of burn and RUG in the meta and IGG allows you to win without casting doomsday which is often impossible against burn in particular. I almost never get Doomsday with IT because it basically requires 2 LEDS and a Top in play so I generally see two distinct game plans based on what my hand is and what my opponent is playing. In that case I usually get redundant chants or cantrips with IT. I would definitely endorse IGG + Chants. I haven't really missed Lotus Petal.
I agree that white is not obviously necessary right now - black disruption is arguably a little bit faster, and superior in some pretty important matchups. However, I love my IGGY loop, so I run Silence/Chant. Of course, the fact that I only play storm combo decks means that I like to mix up my disruption between decks, and perhaps gives me a slight bias (as in, I want to run white because none of my other decks are running white :tongue: ).
I'm intrigued by the idea of cutting IT for Karakas. While I love my IT, it does make sense - you never really want to see a second IT. That would give me a list that looks like:
4 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Meditate
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
4 Silence
3 Orim's Chant
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
Does that look reasonable?
I'm just lazy, and don't want to learn new piles.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
This looks pretty good to me. I haven't personally used meditate before so that calls for some choices I don't know much about. I'm curious what you are running in your SB. Right now my board is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
SB
4 Iok
4 Dread of Night
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wipe Away
1 Emrakul
1 Shelldock Isle
My sideboard is a little in the air right now, but it's going to include some Dread of Night (which I have found to be absolutely awesome in testing), a range of bounce spells (including Wipeaway and Echoing Truth), the Shelldock package, and probably some Leyline of the Void.
I think Wipeaway is important because with white disruption I'm pretty weak to permanent based hate, and Wipeaway is another way to deal with Thalia+Mom, as well as counterbalance. Echoing Truth deals with multiple Leylines (I had someone mull into three Leylines of Sanctity in one game :mad: ).
That probably leaves me needing some artifact bounce, so I'd try to cram Hurkul's Recall in there.
Nothing groundbreaking in the above, just a general effort to "be prepared".
When I thought about my sideboard for Ubw just yesterday I decided to leave Emmi and Shelldock Isle out of it. Seriously, what bad matchups do we have to ge thim in right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Previously we sided them in against CB/Top, now they have 1 or 2 Karakas and 4 Terminus maindeck. Reanimator plays Tidesprout Tyrant and Blazing Archon. The only deck that can not easily handle this combo is NicFit and really, we don´t need to board against that one at all.
So after some tinkering I came to this board:
4 Dread of Night
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Slaughter Pact
Obviously, as any sideboard this is a metacall. Chalices are rising again and therefore I wanted some solutions against them. If you don´t have MUD or Goblins in your area, you might use something else.
Grand Abolishers are worth testing and are awesome against those miracle decks out there. Cruel Bargain against REB of course and the rest of my board is just random bounce.
I also thought about squeezing 3 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Tropical in there to get a better edge against Canadian. However, that was way more easy with the old German List where you could simply change 2 CRit, 1RoF for 3 Carpets... not sure about that right now.
Hello,
I'm currently a T.e.s. and Ant player and decided to also learn doomsday. I was wondering if anyone has access to a list of piles. Also if anyone had a good strategy for learning said piles. Also what exactly does the emrakul package do for you? is it just to beat storm hate cards like mbt tegg and thalia?
You coulda texted me about the piles :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...TkY/edit?hl=es
Just keep playing them and playing them. Constant testing is the only way to learn, since often you have to beat something weird on the fly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
also storm boards is a great resource, i haven't been in a few months but there is a lot of information there.
expect to fuck up, a lot. don't memorize piles, get the basic few and maybe a stackj or two that deals with general stuff. but the important parts are the concepts behind them and how they work,and then start trying to build ones on your own or at least understand how to.
you never build piles in a vacuum. so memorizing how to do it without pressure is pretty useless.
@rekk
Doomsday is so fun!
I don't recommend Emrakul against decks with Thalia or Teeg; those decks almost always run wasteland.
Emrakul is for decks that don't put you on a tight clock. The idea is that the emrakul doomsday combo requires less combo pieces in hand, so when you combo off it's mostly just doomsday then use top or probe for a free card draw. Other storm decks can potentially be stopped mid combo (e.g. Opponent lets mana spells resolve then counters a burning wish).
I have also tried other goofy things with doomsday, such as using cloud of faeries with shelldock.
Honestly I think you'll pick up doomsday quite easily since you've used tes and ant, and I've seen you with sensei's top decks.
I played this list to top32 at baltimore. I was in t8 contention until round 8
3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Karakas
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 2 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Time Spiral
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
Ended up 6-3. I feel like I was a draw spell at some point over a huge amount of turns from making t8. List felt fine. Would play again.
That was you? I was watching you play against David Price. It was really nice seeing someone good play the deck.
Did you ever board in Infernal Contract over IU against decks with red blasts?
Yes. IC + Tendrils come in for any matchup where I expect Surgical/Extirpate/Spell Snare/REB.
Yeah, I played against Dave Price. I believe I had a kill with this game state with 3 life:
In play: Island, Volcanic Island, Swamp, Sensei's Divining Top
In hand: Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Chain of Vapor
I remember it being 2x island and an Underground, but your memory is probably better. I posted that hand to facebook, actually, not 30 minutes before you replied. It was a line of play I hadn't had much experience with.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I definitely remember 2x blue, 1x black source. I know I had at least 2 basics, but I could have Volc/Sea switched up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67