If I was to add Top to the welder list, is it possible to tap it to draw and then in response weld it still bagging the drawn card with the top ending up in my graveyard?
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If I was to add Top to the welder list, is it possible to tap it to draw and then in response weld it still bagging the drawn card with the top ending up in my graveyard?
Yes, because the only activation the cast has is tapping it. The placement on the top of your deck is part of the actual effect.
This list looks good but i still have questions for you :-) Would you still play Sundering Titan with this build ? Sometimes it will hurt you as much as your opponent...
Have you thought to other fatties for his replacement ? I don't see any other artifact creatures that are stronger than Titan.
If you play titans, i don't see how fetch and bilands can be better then city of brass and mines.
No, I would not play Sundering Titan when playing with fetches and duals.
The deck would gear towards more Sphinxes and stuff like Magister Sphinx (the card that sets your life to 10), Sharuum and maybe Platinum creatures (Angel and Emperion).
With fetchland and duals you can start playing brainstorm...arguably the best card in the format and being able to manipulate your hand and protect potential parts of your combo is extremely usable in a fragile combo like this is.
Even while playing duals and sundering titan, it's not that bad to play him once. Besides eating a lot of land, without land, your opponent can't do anything while you can still keep recurring artifacts with welder.
Most decks still play duals and other targetable land. So it doesn't really hurt to nom-nom-nom their manabase. You can safely board it out against mono-decks or decks with very few basic-land types.
This configuration looks really interesting but is impossible with Titans...The manabase would more stable but i'm not convinced that losing titan is a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me
I don't know if there is a stricly better artifact creature than Titan (behalve inkwell and sphinx) ?
During my tests, I was missing Thoughtseize...But i don't know what could be taken out for thoses.
This version has no brainstorm+fetch, so needs to dig aggressively with study and researcher. And i can not see any other pieces that could be removed... Did anybody else miss thoughtseize ?
Anyway, i will bring the deck to a tourney this weekend and i hope i will get answers to our questions...
@ Oxmo39:
Have you taken the deck to a tourney yet, How was it?
(I am still waiting for my welders in the post, so I can't do any proper testing myself)
Yep, i could bring it to a tourney on Sunday but it was horrible.
I explain : i know that i had to mull agressively to find the combo and that's what i did. But even if i had the needed pieces to go off in my starting hand, i wasn't able to protect it. i felt that the deck was too fragile to all the common hate (dicard effects, counters, stp on welder, extirpate & mc fae).
I really missed the protectetions spells that i used to run in the standard reanimator buil : daze, thoughtseize and brainstorm.
Furthermore, if i couldn't go off before T3, the opponent had already developped his gameplan so that he could easily overrun me.
Maybe, it was one of thoses days, but i am really disappointed with the poor results i got.
Conclusions :
- Combo too fragile, too few way to protect it
- too often resiliant on topdeck ( when one piece of the combo was disrupted nor not yet found)
- the fatties we run are not always gamebreaking against aggro decks : our clock is not always as fast as theirs.
Well i know this is maybe not really positive nor constructive, but that is the way i see it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxmo39
I have never chosen titan to reanimate. i always wanted to choose creatures immuned to removals : Iona, Inkwell or Sphinx.
I only had Fow to protect myself and it was often used (whan i got it) to protect entom or reanimation spell.
Like i used to play the older version, i always prefered playing a redundant list (with 2 sphinx, 2 inkwell) rather than a toolbox favoring random reanimations.
Even then, the deck seemed not strong enough.
Reanimate Platinum Emperion: he costs no life, and lets you Reanimate everything else without paying life. Also, if you get an active Welder, you can weld the targeted creature (excluding Iona, Sphinx and Welder itself) to your GY to bring out another one. VS many other decks, you could also just Reanimate the Welder and then weld out the big creatures, but vs Zoo's burn spells getting Welder active is more based on luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me
Nevertheless, Iona on white and Sphinx (if you get him to stick) are the best creatures against Zoo. However, even with the traditional animator list I never brought out Sphinx unless I could protect it from the first StoP/PtE. Hopefully, you can also get the Lightning Greaves out on time, because those can be gg for the Zoo player. Especially Sphinx + Greaves = win.
A severe problem vs Zoo with the welder list is Welder's vulnerability to burn spells, and many creatures' vulnerability to Qasali Pridemage. This makes Exhume much worse than usually, as well.
While Inkwell has shroud, he is usually too slow vs Zoo just by himself.
For you to know, here is the list which made 5th/73 and 8th/236 in a big Event this past WE in France.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxmo39
The Stronghold Gambit SB Tech was taken from The Source's Sneak&Tell Thread for the lands, landstll, TES matchups as well as some critter-lite decks.
The lack of LDV surprised me, but I trust the pilot enough to say it was probably an optimal choice.
Have a nice discussion about those lists...
Bring in the Gambits against Trash decks and Control and combo.... what is boarded out?
4 Sphinx's help with the Venvevine and tribal match-ups, but you don't have a lot to board in against these decks and you probably need something.
Ditto-ed on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Anyone tried playtesting the deck yet, doesn't feel very consistent to me (since it has neither tutors nor cantrips).
Consistency is reached by playing more threats (4 S&T) instead of playing more cantrips and tutors. In this configuration 4 brainstorm + 4 careful study seems a good choice.
I have to admit I didn't play the deck in a tournament since MT's ban, and I playtested the deck only a week. But the result has been pretty fine and I don't see what to change atm to improve this UBr list.
Oh, I was referring to a combination of both threats and cantrips. But I'll playtest it around since I have most of the cards, haven't touched reanimator since m tutor banning, currently playing sneaky show instead.
Given some lists seem to be going in that direction, I figured I'd post my list that has a full Show and Tell suite. I ran this at GP Columbus and went 6-3, losing the last round to miss day 2, and got 10th at a Jupiter Games Lotus event on October 10th:
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Entomb
3 Show and Tell
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder/Preordain
1 Careful Study
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Daze
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
SB:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Show and Tell
3 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
2 Thoughtseize
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Extirpate
The thoughts behind this kind of list are really simple: SnT into Emrakul is outright insane, but having additional fat to throw with SnT is nice. I decided to only run 3/3 of the Show and Tell package maindeck because I found myself having Emrakul stuck in my hand too often without Show and Tell, or multiple Show and Tells and reanimation spells, making the deck too clunky. I also adding another land and more basics to fight Wasteland better because you try to hit 3 mana every game. I also cut down the Daze count in the deck for that same reason, in that it slows you from getting to cast Show and Tell quickly, but it's still quite solid when going for a fast reanimate or exhume. The sideboard is self-explanitory for the most part, but I'd be happy to discuss it further for anyone who has questions.
Hey guys this is John Cuvelier, creator of the deck. If you have any questions feel free to ask, I also played Welder Reanimator at the SCG OPEN after I scrubbed out of the Invitational. I lost in the last round not to make top 8 of the Legacy. If you want my new list just let me know.
Hi Did, why exactly do you run Dryad Arbor in your sideboard? I checked the opening post as well as some pages in case it was some kind of matchup-specific tech but couldn't find any explanation.
Go ahead and post it. Why do you feel welder based reanimator is better than typical UB right now? I personally feel it'd be better once extirpates are out of most peoples boards because welder is essentially an instant speed reanimate, which dodges T-Crypts, Faerie Macbres, relics, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcuvelier
Its for decks that play edict effects. Most of the fetches can find green, and can get him in response to a sac effect. Same reason some lists used to run bloodghast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Actually here I'll just post it, this is what I'm currently testing. Slightly different from what I played in Virginia, and a bit different from Boston.
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Chrome Mox
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Goblin Welder
3 Hapless Researcher
4 Exhume
1 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sundering Titan
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Show and Tell
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Mindslaver
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Engineered Explosives
At the Virginia Open this is how my day went:
R1 Goblins - Win
R2 Welder Mirror - Win
R3 Lands - Win
R4 Survival - Win
R5 Survival - Loss
R6 Survival - Win
R7 Ant - Unintentional Draw
R8 Countertop - Loss
I had the ant player dead in 2 more turns, and the countertop ripped a Peacekeeper with lethal on board game 2, and I mulled to oblivion game 3 before flooding out as well.
I feel that the blue decks have a much harder time beating reanimator with welder, as appose to versions without it.
Why chrome mox over petal? And when do you want the mindslaver in the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcuvelier
Mox lets you keep those awkward 1 landers, and sometimes even no landers. also you dont always need to imprint it obv, and just use it at welder fodder. Slaver I use against the combo/control decks. (ant, countertop, show n tell)
Your blue count for Force of Will seems alarmingly low, isn't it?
No I think the Blue count is just right. It is very rare that I've had a FOW dead in my hand unless I've already played at least 1. In my experience you normally want a minimum of 16 blue cards to consider playing FOW. I think the deck is just much more powerful with FOW, as oppose to playing thoughtseize over it. However, I am in the process of reconfiguring the deck with a build that does not play FOW just to solidify my choice of playing FOW rather than not. I just 4-0'ed a legacy daily on MODO, so my list will be on there as well. Username: Gosu.
Greetings,
@jcuvelier(or anyone else who plays this variant): I am skeptical of the Goblin Welder variant of this deck. It just seems like even with counter magic to keep him alive, he will get heavily targeted by your opponents. I do like the concept though. What is the game plan to keep him alive? Simply counter removal that gets pointed at him? It might be a play style thing, but I just don't like that idea.
I have worked out my own normal U/B Reanimator build and would like any feedback on it that I could be given. I have tested it a good bit and for the most part it does really well. I am just looking for comments or thoughts from others playing similar versions.
Creatures: 7
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Spells: 35
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dark Ritual
4 Exhume
3 Daze
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
Lands: 18
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdent Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
3 Island
Sideboard
I play in a few different metas. Therefore my board changes from store to store based on what I have seen played there before.
I just have a few general thoughts or questions for other players who play version similar to what I have posted.
1. I many times feel that the 1 copy Dark Ritual is there for the ability to say I can get anything turn one. I don't usually see it or want it when I draw it. What are thoughts on this issue? Is it worth it to potentially go off turn one or should the slot be made something else to more streamline the overall deck?
2. I am running 2 Iona and 2 Inkwell Leviathan. Could these creature slots be better served? I find that since many decks are based in blue and many have complex mana bases Inkwell get the job done rather well because of the islandwalking. Is 1 Iona enough and/or are 2 too many?
3. How has the Show and Tell/Emrakul combo worked out? I would think that out an Emrakul is basically a win unless they have lethal on board/in hand. Is this the case or are there ways in current decks that get rid of him easily (I can't think of any.)?
4. With increased graveyard hate due to tarmgoyf, reanimator, and the vengevine survival, it seems that more Show and Tell could be the way to go. Thoughts on this?
I like the list, especially the "classic" feel of it; no Welder shenanigans, just binning some fatties and bringing them back. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I agree that a one-of Dark Ritual is probably less than optimal. Dark Ritual is on my list of "4 or 0" type cards, generally speaking. I'd probably consider replacing it with a 4th Daze, since being able to protect the fast combo we've got is important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Even though it was a different world with Mystical Tutor, which was the last I played this deck, I always ran 2 Iona and 2 Inky. Sometimes I'd have to bait out removal or grave hate with one of them, and there are times when your opponent will come out of left field with some removal or work-around that you didn't anticipate and you'll have to get another of whatever he just blasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I had been fooling with the idea of boarding into Worldly Tutor/Show and Tell, since they're almost certainly going to be bringing in graveyard hate against us for games 2 and 3. Never really went anywhere with it, though. Maybe it's time for me to reevaluate and test that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Jcuvelier, did you ever miss Lightning Greaves? It seems like one of the better cards for this deck. Haste and Shroud is pretty bonkers on Welder and his toys.
There are very few decks in the format that are actively attacking your creatures. Also it is a reanimator deck, not a welder deck. You really don't care if they kill it, but it is very powerful if they leave it on the table. The greaves just wasn't really needed most of the time, it was really more of a "win more" card. But that was just from my experiences with the deck so far.
@jcuvelier: What is you're most recent list looking like?
What are you're expectations for the post survival meta like, are you expecting a lot more merfolk?
what are those match ups like for you, any tech you'd like to share against them? (talking about the merfolk match up and any other you're expecting to see more of)
Some opinions I've read on the welder list are of people wanting to up the count on the creatures which can protect themselves e.g inkwell and sphinx, what has you're experiences been with cards such as the hellkite.
I've been testing a list which runs senseis top with darkblast main, it seems to be working nicely as I find darkblast good against a lot in the format (I'm thinking curse catcher, dark confidant, noble hierarch, goblin lackey etc). The ability to then be able to look at you're top 3 and if there is a fatty in there dredge it into the yard or otherwise if nothing special appears dredge them away and look at the next three. Also being able to tap draw and then weld makes top (and blast) good additions so far, it seems to me at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmagic
I'm expecting the format to go back to mostly everyone playing "safe decks" like merfolk, goblins, counterbalance, zoo, etc. The only deck I have lost to literally is just counterbalance, and one time to survival which is now banned. Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk are pretty much complete byes. The only tech I have right now for counterbalance is a bayou, and krosan grips in the board.
Although generally speaking, inkwell is probably the best target to get. The thing is, a lot of the time any big guy will do. They are all just situational, and better depending on the matchup. They are all in there for a reason, and I generally find redundancy in having multiples of a creature, and I want different guys for different scenarios. Toolbox is better imo.
In my experience darkblast is unnecessary, but I suppose works fine with what you are saying. Gerry Thompson and I had talked about adding top to the deck. However, it isn't exactly fast, and there isn't a lot of shuffle effects.
Have you considered a 1of Darkblast or Volcanic Spray in the side?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcuvelier
Not really, although I could give it a shot I suppose. Not many decks you really want darkblast against, if at all. But I'll test it next time I get a chance on modo.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Still can't believe Gerry bailed on welder reanimator and built his own version. :/
He did sorta say he didn't think welder was very good. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by jcuvelier
Based on 0 testing btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
@Jcuvelier
Your list looks pretty awesome, although I've never run the Welder package but it looks really effective giving you that double threat having to worry about dealing with your reanimates or you just welding the creatures right back into play. Sundering Titan just looks like game over with Welder in play. I see you run Myr Battlesphere, which is hilarious, I'd hate to lose to that goofy card, how has that been working for you? Also, have you tried running like 1-2 Intuition in place of the Deep Analysis, its like a functional buried alive/tutor and works well with careful study/hapless researcher as well.
Thought about sleeving up Reanimator again, despite the fact that MT is gone. I keep seeing all these tribal decks run rampant, and I feel like Reanimator has good matchups against these decks. And now that Survival is banned, this deck stands to gain even more. What does everyone think? Any chance of taking this back to tier 1(ish)? Or is this deck's success history?
I've been testing this 60 and thus far I've liked it, its essentially just putting Preordain in the Mystical slot and adding Cephalid Coliseum to the mana base.
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Careful Study
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
1 Blazing Archon
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Daze
1 Dispel
I feel like ponder is a lot better than preordain because typically your digging for a specific card, not looking for general card quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron00x