[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@ Gustha and NQN: I don't really mind the reasoning behind running snares over CS'es but IMO writing posts that just state 'run snare, it's good' isn't really helping this thread.
In my opinion, this is one of the best threads in the dtb forum, because people have been respectfully arguing with eachother about a deck and a lot of great suggestions and improvements have been made, as compared to (for example) the goblins thread where people just post their list and say 'card X is good you guys should try it' and nobody even tries to discuss anything. Would be a shame to watch it go down the crapper.

Also, this is the last offtopic post by me concerning this little peeve of mine (for now), so let's leave it at that since I reckon most people would agree.

Hey guys, I think you should take out Counterspells and run spell snare. They're good cause I said so, so do it!

:smile:


Honestly, this deck isn't a tempo deck. Tempo Thresh Benifits from SS since it can deny the opponent mana and force them to cast cheaper stuff. Landstill is slower and will head into late game. Having hard counters in the late game is more important and also a better top deck. Daze and Spell Snare tend to get worse as the game goes on and are counter-intuitive to landstills gameplan. Also, Landstill can afford to leave mana open and simply attack with man lands.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Hey guys, I think you should take out Counterspells and run spell snare. They're good cause I said so, so do it!

:smile:


Honestly, this deck isn't a tempo deck. Tempo Thresh Benifits from SS since it can deny the opponent mana and force them to cast cheaper stuff. Landstill is slower and will head into late game. Having hard counters in the late game is more important and also a better top deck. Daze and Spell Snare tend to get worse as the game goes on and are counter-intuitive to landstills gameplan. Also, Landstill can afford to leave mana open and simply attack with man lands.

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These replies give me the striking sensation I'm talking in vain...

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Originally Posted by gustha

These replies give me the striking sensation I'm talking in vane...

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Don't you mean vain?

And why? Because I don't think Spell Snare is good for this deck?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Don't you mean vain?

And why? Because I don't think Spell Snare is good for this deck?

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Simply because I'd just finished to explain why snare is the best anti-Tempo card. It's not that if tempo thresh does run SSnare, than this mean SSnare can be only used with succedd in tempo decks. It can be used as well in landstill against all decks. Usually landstill used life points as a resource to spend in early game. Then this resource has become more and more difficult to spend (you know tarmo and friends...).
The early game is the stage of game where the most things you would avoid from touching ground try to resolve, and passing almost inviolated that stage of game is the key of landstill success. Spell snare is the card that lets you pass these stage without losing (or little losing) your life points, reserve you can spend later on in the game (maximizing resources while reducing the costs, it's the same principle over and over...). And they don't become useless as long as you enter the midgame, just because aggro and combo, or noncontrol decks, tend to choose the best card (in terms of cost/effect ratio), and those cards usually float around the 1-3 cc. I don't want to recall all the things I've said (and not only me, I'm just a poor man) about spell snare, but please don't state that a card is bad for landstill just because it's good for a tempo deck.

Than just don't play fetch, brainstorm, force, wasteland and dual lands. I hear they're pretty good in tempo thresh.

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Originally Posted by gustha

Simply because I'd just finished to explain why snare is the best anti-Tempo card. It's not that if tempo thresh does run SSnare, than this mean SSnare can be only used with succedd in tempo decks. It can be used as well in landstill against all decks. Usually landstill used life points as a resource to spend in early game. Then this resource has become more and more difficult to spend (you know tarmo and friends...).
The early game is the stage of game where the most things you would avoid from touching ground try to resolve, and passing almost inviolated that stage of game is the key of landstill success. Spell snare is the card that lets you pass these stage without losing (or little losing) your life points, reserve you can spend later on in the game (maximizing resources while reducing the costs, it's the same principle over and over...). I don't want to recall all the things I've said (and not only me, I'm just a poor man) about spell snare, but please don't state that a card is bad for landstill just because it's good for a tempo deck.

Than just don't play fetch, brainstorm, force, wasteland and dual lands. I hear they're pretty good in tempo thresh.

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I was using tempo thresh as an example for comparison. No need to lash out.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I was using tempo thresh as an example for comparison. No need to lash out.

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I really apologize for the harshness, but that comment still seems to me against all logic after dozens and dozens of pages on spell snare, where objection like the one you pose have been more than once confuted. Your position may seem good to you and you are free to believe what you want, but sorry you can't claim this is a strong objection to the use of spell snare in landstill, it's not an objection at all (no harshness here, really).

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Originally Posted by gustha

I really apologize for the harshness, but that comment still seems to me against all logic after dozens and dozens of pages on spell snare, where objection like the one you pose have been more than once confuted. Your position may seem good to you and you are free to believe what you want, but sorry you can't claim this is a strong objection to the use of spell snare in landstill, it's not an objection at all (no harshness here, really).

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I don't think I claimed it to be a strong objection, but that's moot anyways.

I read some of your comments on the justification for SS (anti-tempo to make it to the late game) and they are sound, but at what cost? What are you taking out to make room for Spell Snare? Won't SS hurt our late game? (Where landstill is suppose to shine)

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I don't think I claimed it to be a strong objection, but that's moot anyways.

I read some of your comments on the justification for SS (anti-tempo to make it to the late game) and they are sound, but at what cost? What are you taking out to make room for Spell Snare? Won't SS hurt our late game? (Where landstill is suppose to shine)

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You got something wrong.
SS is played in Canadian because of its ability to generate tempo but more for being a strong disruptive spell all the time.
Canadian is first of a disruption deck, although it can play the role of the tempodeck just as good.
Even if you say that CS is better in the mid- and lategame for landstill its just half of the truth.
Don't forget that Legacy consists mostly of 1CC and 2CC spells and that Spell Snare answers the most dangerous of them (Goyf and CB).

€dit: Spelling - man im tired.

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Originally Posted by EaD

Don't forget that Legacy consists mostly of 1CC and 2CC spells and that Spell Snare answers the most dangerous of them (Goyf and CB).

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That's a really good argument and I suppose I will retract my objection. Goyf and Counter Balance are relevant.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

That's a really good argument and I suppose I will retract my objection. Goyf and Counter Balance are relevant.

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as well as:

Burning wish
Dark Confidant
Hymn of torouch
qasali pride-mage
counterspell
standstill
Lord of Atlantas
Goblin Piledriver
Cabal ritual

ect. ect. ect. ect.

Spell snare is not only main-deckable. Its VERY x4 able.

I'm using 3 Spell Snare at the moment but could see myself going back up to 4. There are just so many 2nd turn plays that need to be taken care of.

And I did end up going up to 24 lands. I had to take out a Top but I still have 2 in the deck which seems to be fine. I'm finding it early enough and not running into multiples when they could be something else.

Edit: After more testing, I'm convinced that Deadguy Ale (B/W) is one of our hardest, if not our hardest matchup. The discard and land destruction is just too much to deal with most of the time.

I absolutely agree. I played against it for a couple of hours saturday and is a dreadful match (and I run 4 md snare). A major problem is not much of the sideboard does anything against it (I brought in halo to name hymn and then thoughtseize). The match made me want crucible back in the 75 somewhere.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

I absolutely agree. I played against it for a couple of hours saturday and is a dreadful match (and I run 4 md snare). A major problem is not much of the sideboard does anything against it (I brought in halo to name hymn and then thoughtseize). The match made me want crucible back in the 75 somewhere.

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I'm using 3 SS maindeck, 24 lands, and a Crucible and I'm still having trouble. Rarely do I even get to 3 lands to be able to cast it if I even find it. I don't know what I'd take out for a 4th SS (I only use 2 Counterspell already), but the answer may be in sideboarding instead.

A question to fellow WishStill users:

Against aggro, do you sb all Paths in, or leave one in the sb for Wish? I do the latter, but I wanted other's opinion since I just started playing Landstill recently.

I only have two path in the sideboard, but yes, usually I side 1 in (or sometimes both and Wish for something else)

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Originally Posted by Shawon

A question to fellow WishStill users:

Against aggro, do you sb all Paths in, or leave one in the sb for Wish? I do the latter, but I wanted other's opinion since I just started playing Landstill recently.

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Sometimes you just board Wishes out in favor of Paths, Ajanis and/or Pulse.

@3duece, Misplayer, rockout
Yeah, my deck is mostly localized against aggro.

I don't have any Elspeths (she's a tough lady to find), and generally speaking, she doesn't last very long. I have been looking into acquiring a pair though.

@Misplayer, gustha
I'm going to have to agree with Misplayer. I generally assemble U+U/W then UU+W+U/W. I need a lot more blue than I need white most of the time, but then again, I run 11 permission spells with 6 1cc white one-for-ones.

@gustha
Concerning Leibniz. I just thought Candide was hilarious. xD

@3duece, ultimoman
What change to factories?

EDIT: Ohhh.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/feature/42a

1. LOL. I always thought this new rule was the way it was supposed to be done! Even at Regionals. xDDD

2A. I don't like this one. In fact, if I were a noob, I might confuse this with combat. BUT LOOK AT GLACIAL FORTRESS! =DDD
2B. I guess this makes sense. But it would be confusing for noobs that encounter a card like Standstill, since it triggers when a player PLAYS a spell. Now it's CAST?
2C. Oh no. This is BURY all over again.
2D. Finally, they're distinguishing between End of Turn and Beginning of End Step.

3A. Wow. This is a pretty big change. We can't float from step to step now?
3B. WOW?

4. Hahaha... I didn't know this one.

5. WOW. This is really going to hurt aggro. But it makes sense. The LIFO stack business was confusing to me when I started playing... in second grade. =P

Anyhow, it won't affect Mishra's Factory. You can always tap it for the +1/+1 BEFORE damage is assigned/dealt.

@Ectoplasm, DragoFireheart
Spell Snare is a maindeck 3-4-of. This is because it can easily make up for the first two turns of relative instability, especially if you draw. They drop a land, you drop a land, they play a 2cc spell, say, Tarmogoyf or Hymn to Tourach, you Spell Snare it. Not hard to follow, eh?

But it does not replace Counterspell, which is a vital card when Landstill matures in the late game.

I never once said I didn't like spellsnare, I said I didn't like the way people stated things as fact without any arguementation and I used spellsnare as an example. I know it's good.

Any tips on playing a vindicate model against Rock with LftL, besides 'board in relics', 'deck them with standstill' or 'run cunning wish'? This deck seems to outlast me completely and utterly and I have no lategame while they do whatever they want. Liliana seems tempting but that's post-SB

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Originally Posted by Taishaku

@3duece, ultimoman
What change to factories?

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He's talking about a change to the way combat damage operates, effective July 11. You will no longer be able to respond to damage on the stack. You won't be able to, for example, attack with a Qasili Pride-mage, have it do 3 damage to creature, and then sacrifice it to destroy an artifact. He's mistaken though. You can still animate, block, and tap a factory to make it a 3/3.

@ Ectoplasm:

It mostly comes down to luck. Your draw needs to beat their draw, and their draw is repetitive. I find fact or fictions it effectively puts you two "loams" ahead of them. I've actually gotten into the habit of countering the loams: it gives you time to build to seven mana and play E. Dragon (the builds I've seen have a tough time removing it (they usually have to devastating dreams for five), although if I were them I'd play terminate, maelstrom pulse, putrefy, so maybe that's just the people in my area. I also really enjoy standstill here, and run four.

Oh, one other thing. KILL BOB. Use wrath, EE, Swords, cycle decree, anything, but them getting that second draw is BRUTAL.

I was referring to The Rock with some LftL's in there, not aggroloam :D The Rock doesn't run DD's, they run deeds, vindicates and plows.
The problem is that everything comes back and not in the janky way that ITF tries to be 'immortal' either, which spells doom because my answers become meaningless in the long run.

Yes, boarding in relics helps but this seems like a horrible matchup so I'm looking for some general pointers, there might be some things I've not thought of since like I said earlier I lack some playtime :)

Sorry, I'm retarded. Factory is still nuts.

On the spell snare/counterspell argument. I've been playing a 4/1 split and been very happy. The one counterspell seems random but I honestly see it just often enough to like it. I find the vindicate models like mine really do need ww or wb first, so an early counterspell is usually out of the question and spell snare counters mostly everything I want anyway. Also, I'm really sick of people saying spell snare gets worse in the mid and late game. Most decks are playing the same goyfs, bobs and counterbalances mid and late game as they are early on. Spell snare is always good.

On aggro-loam, it's an awful match, that's all there is to it. The problem is the inevitability, which you really can't address until game 2. The best play is to resolve elspeth and swords the big guys. This match is one of the few in which elspeth's ultimate is actually really worth it because it makes their recursion pointless.

@LostButSeeking
Thanks. I read the article. Eliminating mana burn and LIFO damage is rather groundbreaking.

@3duece
Lol. A 1-of typically means you don't ever want to see it unless you tutor it.

I agree with you on Spell Snare. Unlike Mana Leak, Spell Snare's effect is effective regardless of the time of game. This is because the decks that it hurts the most, typically aggro decks, all run masses of 2cc creatures (Werebear, Meddling Mage, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Piledriver, Lord of Atlantis). Indeed, even against control decks, permission is 2cc for the most part (Counterspell, Mana Leak, Rune Snag, Remand, Memory Lapse, etc).

And how does The Rock work these days? Still Ghost Quartering people to death? I would think I have a better game one, as I run 8 basic lands; they can take their time, I'll just hardcast 2+ angels on them (assuming they don't get more than one Bitterblossom in play, then I scoop). ^^

I kind of want to play Landstill at the SCG 5K event next weekend, but I'm expecting a field heavy with Merfolk and Zoo. There's also a strong probability that Tendrils Combo will make a decent appearance if others are expecting the same field that I am. Because my name isn't Geoff Smelski (meaning I probably can't T8 in a field like that), I'll probably play Aggro-Loam or Merfolk or CBTop. However, this means sleeving up a deck that I'm way less familiar with (outside of CBTop), although last time I did that I made Top 8 anyway. Am I overthinking this? Should I roll with Landstill despite it being an anticipated crappy metagame choice, or go with something like Aggro-Loam that could be strong against the field but that I probably won't play as optimally as I would Landstill?

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

I was referring to The Rock with some LftL's in there, not aggroloam :D The Rock doesn't run DD's, they run deeds, vindicates and plows.
The problem is that everything comes back and not in the janky way that ITF tries to be 'immortal' either, which spells doom because my answers become meaningless in the long run.

Yes, boarding in relics helps but this seems like a horrible matchup so I'm looking for some general pointers, there might be some things I've not thought of since like I said earlier I lack some playtime :)

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Raw cardadavantage wins, It's a strong engine but horribly slow. They aren't doing anything usefull for 3/4 turns to get back a Pernicious Deed. Ow that and Elspeth wins the game, get to 8 counters ASAP with building tokens and Ultimate her. The only danger you have after this is Tombstalker. They can only Vindicate it, but it should be possible to stop that. Try to plow the Eternal Witness so they can't recur it.

If you are playing Crucible of Worlds it's easier, because it allows you to destroy things like Volrath's Stronghold, wich they need a drawstep to get it back with Life from the Loam.

@Misplayer:

Why not play Landstill? All the matchups are winnable with Landstill if you build it properly. Alot of spot-removal against Merfolk and Zoo is nice and Combo can be dealt with in the SB by boarding 6/7 cards in like Meddling Mage, Sculler and Vendillion Clique.

Then you are still able to win against Scrub and hopefully Thresh( allthough you will weaken that matchup.)

The greatest power of Landstill is that it can win every matchup( except maybe 43 lands and Ichorid) without changing the deck to much.

Benie

It seems to me that E. Plague isn't used very much in this build anymore, if so, whats the reason for this? Is it too slow or just not needed?

Meta-consideration I guess, but with merfolk running rampant and (at least where I live) people experimenting around with faeries I'd say it's safe to bring at least 3.

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Meta-consideration I guess, but with merfolk running rampant and (at least where I live) people experimenting around with faeries I'd say it's safe to bring at least 3.

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I suppose, but yeah Merfolk is definitely on the rise. I was using 3 Plagues but had to bring them down to 2 actually (I didn't think I was facing enough Tribal for it to warrant 3 spots). E. Plague is great against them when it lands but thats the hardest part. It'll usually get countered or possibly bounced. Along with Swords, the Paths may be a better choice due to its speed.

@Misplayer, ultimoman, Ectoplasm
Indeed, I have always been more concerned about aggro than combo.

If you play black, Engineered Plague is the way to go. Wake Thresher doesn't stand a chance.

I don't though, which is why I pack 2 Path to Exile maindeck.

@Benie Bederios
I typically have not had too much trouble with Loam Control in the past. I find that they're rather slow and vulnerable to permission. But then again, I have not played more recent versions.

Aside from the cards that enable its card advantage engine, Devastating Dreams is probably the key threat, but I main deck Spell Snare, so I don't worry too much. The biggest problem is usually killing them. Second game might be smoother when I put in Tormod's Crypt and Krosan Grip, but even this is no guarantee.

But yeah, Cabal Therapy is definitely one good reason to play Sensei's Divining Top over Brainstorm. Hiding a Force of Will all day can be rather useful to stop the Devastating Dreams for 6.

Anyhow, another plus to black is that Extirpate, Planar Void, and Leyline of the Void can be played.

Guys first in a tournament in Hollland.

Code:

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// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
    3 [R] Tundra
    3 [ON] Flooded Strand
    2 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [R] Scrubland
    2 [GUR] Island
    2 [GUR] Plains
    1 [GUR] Swamp
    3 [ON] Polluted Delta
    3 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
    2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
    3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    3 [IA] Counterspell
    3 [DIS] Spell Snare
    2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
    2 [R] Wrath of God
    2 [SC] Decree of Justice
    1 [TE] Humility
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
    4 [OD] Standstill
    3 [IA] Brainstorm
    3 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile

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This was my list and I was very very happy with it. We played 5 rounds of Swiss and I won 4-1-0 ending first.

G1 UGr Balanced Thresh 2-1
G2 Merfolk 2-1
G3 Suicide w/ Blue 2-1
G4 Eva Green 2-1
G5 Aggro-Rock 1-2

The maindeck was just perfect, from the SB I boarded in Path to Exile quite some time( against Merfolk and Eva Green). Crucible of Worlds was nice too, but didn't need it often. Vedalken Shackles was very good against Merfolk.

The only slop I had was that I didnt use 10 card from my SB all day. There were Loam, combo and aggro-players but I didn't face them.

Benie

Grats on the finish!

One thought though: Only 22 land (23 with e. dragon) and 3 brainstorm didn't seem light? Especially in the merfolk matchup I'm always happy I have 23+2 dragons+4 brainstorms.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Grats on the finish!

One thought though: Only 22 land (23 with e. dragon) and 3 brainstorm didn't seem light? Especially in the merfolk matchup I'm always happy I have 23+2 dragons+4 brainstorms.

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A mistake creeped into the decklist. If you count correctly there were 59 cards there. There should be a second Island.

Benie

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

A mistake creeped into the decklist. If you count correctly there were 59 cards there. There should be a second Island.

Benie

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Gotcha. Still lighter than I like to run (as far as non-land mana fixers go) but it makes more sense now.:cool:

What did you think of the 2/2 els/DOJ split in that build? I haven't had time to test it out too much and I've been running a 1/2 split. Was the second els worth it?

yes

Once again, Elspeth is what is going to win you a large chunk of your games followed by Decree and Factory tied in a close 2nd. 2 has become the optimized number and I see people running 2 in 90% of the lists I come across.

I guess my question was referring to a vindicate-still build. I haven't seen any lists run more than one 'till now.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I guess my question was referring to a vindicate-still build. I haven't seen any lists run more than one 'till now.

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I play 2 in vindicate still. Have been since it debuted.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I guess my question was referring to a vindicate-still build. I haven't seen any lists run more than one 'till now.

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Maybe you should check deckcheck.net a little more often, then :tongue: I see eslpeth as a standard in 2x. I've got many friends who play the 3rd. I have tested the 3rd but I prefer the second doj in every situation. And obviously in the mirror match I have vindicate to get rid of opponent's PLW, so I don't care having the 3rd to "counter" my opponent's eslpeth. For the rest, nothing more to add to what rockout and (laconic but precise :laugh: ) mossivo said.

gustha jump on aim.

and yes 2 elspeths or 3-1 split it optimal. no less no more.

1. I've cut Counterspell from my latest build (only 4 Spell Snare/4 Force of Will permission main). I've found that not needing UU except to occasionally play Jace makes the manabase incredibly more stable. I'd be interested to know what others thoughts are on this.

2. Wish Targets: How relevant is Tsabo's Decree? By the time you hit 6 mana haven't you either stabilized or lost? It seems like auto-includes are Path to Exile, Extirpate and Pulse of the Fields. I also like FoF, Fracturing Gust and possibly Counterspell in that order. With Tsabo's Decree that's almost half the sideboard as Wish targets which seems excessive. Other current SB cards include Ajani, Crucible, additional PtE and Crypt/Relic (are these necessary with Wish->Extirpate? I'm leaning towards yes).