All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This is a pointless and jaring discussion as countless posts in this thread have outlined a hundred times, that this approach results into you having to ban 5-12 cards and even more over time.

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So?

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

So?

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We already know how such things work out, respectively don't.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

We already know how such things work out, respectively don't.

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So?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

We already know how such things work out, respectively don't.

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For example:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

For example:

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Vintage Apocalypse? Just look at the players feedback, crashing player numbers, format "health", sellouts, 6y long reign of Workshops, etc.

The Format was repeatingly chopping the head of the cantrip core for years like in Legacy, but when they decided to restrict the whole blue core, the format as such took a huge hit in general as they also removed the ability of decks to fight back the onesided games of Lodestone Golem + Chalice. Blue decks only started to become viable again with the release of Dack and Co.

What I am trying to say is that you have several options:

- keep chopping the hydras head just like WotC does since forever in Legacy (TC, SDT, DTT, DRS, etc.) and just accept that Fetches/BS/Ponder are there to remain the best core period,
- ban Brainstorm and watch how the blue decks streamline even more without significantly improving the situation for other cores because Ponder/Preordain/FoW are still better than Sylan Library/Nissas Oath,
- hammer the whole bunch of blue cantrips from Brainstorm over Ponder to Preordain in order to leave Legacy with Modern powerlevel of cantrips and alienate most of the playerbase like it happened in vintage and deal with the fitting description of Legacy as "Modern with ABU Duals and FoW"
(- ban fetchlands and unban all the cards which are just banned because free shuffle/yardfill effects broke them, leaving Brainstorm & Co suddenly as very fair cards)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Vintage Apocalypse? Just look at the players feedback, crashing player numbers, format "health", sellouts, 6y long reign of Workshops, etc.

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This is a pointless and jaring discussion as countless posts in this thread have outlined a hundred times, that this approach results into you having to ban 5-12 cards and even more over time.

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Looks like they forgot the other part. You'll have to find another example.

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Originally Posted by Bithlord

To be honest, I'd prefer that they raise the other colors up to parity, rather than ban blue down to parity. But, there is no way that will ever happen because how could you do it without jsut making the blue cards in other colors?

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I think that this is the crux of the problem. As Zombie pointed out, card selection is one of the most inherently powerful actions in any sort of card game. Every color should have access to good card selection, not only Blue (possible exception being White, since they touch on everything else on the pie, so it's sensible for them to have a major downside in weak card selection). WotC has realized this and recently has been trying to hand it out to every color, each with their own twist (for example, Red's exile from top). The problem is that until other colors receive cards in the same power level of Brainstorm and Ponder, there is no reason not to run Blue.

On another topic, I think that fetchlands are the worst thing that has ever happened to the game for multiple reasons but I understand that banning them is even more unreal than banning Brainstorm.

I think it would be enough to not outright ban "the cantrip shell" or any sizeable part of it, but to print accessible, relevant and individually strong (as in, Legacy playable in principle, even if they did not have this cantrip-nerving effect/ability) cards that make playing a cantrip-heavy game, or relying on cantrips doing their job properly, a liability. Stuff like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Spirit of the Labyrinth kinda work in that direction, but the first one is just stupid (oughta be symmetric, so it doesn't find its way into Xerox to only fuck the opponent), and Spirit is too weak.

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Originally Posted by colo

I think it would be enough to not outright ban "the cantrip shell" or any sizeable part of it, but to print accessible, relevant and individually strong (as in, Legacy playable in principle, even if they did not have this cantrip-nerving effect/ability) cards that make playing a cantrip-heavy game, or relying on cantrips doing their job properly, a liability. Stuff like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Spirit of the Labyrinth kinda work in that direction, but the first one is just stupid (oughta be symmetric, so it doesn't find its way into Xerox to only fuck the opponent), and Spirit is too weak.

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W
1/1
If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card.

or

1W
Enchantment
If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card unless they pay (2).

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

W
1/1
If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card.

or

1W
Enchantment
If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card unless they pay (2).

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Those are both atrocious vs half the format that doesn't run brainstorm. The card needs to be fine vs non brainstorm decks I would think. Put that text on wild nacatl maybe?

Chains of Mephistopheles is a card that exists that does a lot of what you're looking for.
If availability wasn't a factor I think you'd see it more often.

I own two Chains and whenever I try playing them (this is just my experience), they end up hurting me more than the opponent. In theory it seems great, but you need to give up card draw in your own deck (very bad) and in general the opponent can negate the disadvantage by cantripping in response, using removal on it, countering it or ignoring it anyway to just destroy you with whatever. (Edit: and like Kinda says they are very bad vs some popular decks). Similar to Chalice, the deck building cost seems too steep even if it occasionally wins you a game. Chalice is more powerful though.

Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick. Being green makes it Green Sun's Zenithable which means it's worth playing as a one of, since you get 5 virtual copies in your list with 4 GSZ's, while only 1 in the matchups where it's useless (it can still be a 2/2 should you need it). And it's not answered by StP, bolt or Snapcaster Mage. This would be an efficient but not too powerful answer to Brainstorm. And good creature to put equipment on. Only a few decks would play it but it would offer a way to take blue decks down just a little bit, enough for other decks to be more relevant, relatively. But I may be far off on this...

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick. Being green makes it Green Sun's Zenithable which means it's worth playing as a one of, since you get 5 virtual copies in your list with 4 GSZ's, while only 1 in the matchups where it's useless (it can still be a 2/2 should you need it). And it's not answered by StP, bolt or Snapcaster Mage. This would be an efficient but not too powerful answer to Brainstorm. And good creature to put equipment on. Only a few decks would play it but it would offer a way to take blue decks down just a little bit, enough for other decks to be more relevant, relatively. But I may be far off on this...

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Why WG specifically? White Green already has a huge hate warehouse to pull from - spread the hate to other colors.

{R/G}{R/G}
hexproof.
2/1
When a player draws a card, other than the first card of their draw step, ~ deals 2 damage to that player.

@Bithlord: you have a point but this card would just be a combination of features, and creatures, that already exist in these colors. For red-green we could wish for a hexproof Eidolon of the Great Revel, that could also do the trick.

Edit: I'm an idiot, I just read what you wrote, again. To answer your question, WG could be included in a few decks that are already popular but not good enough, they need some help forward to open up the meta more. A green-red creature might not be played in any deck and so the effect would be wasted. I'd love to see it though.

Would also be cool to see a chains on legs. Maybe 2/1 for 1B, and give it a downside like you lose 1 life in your upkeep.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

@Bithlord: you have a point but this card would just be a combination of features, and creatures, that already exist in these colors. For red-green we could wish for a hexproof Eidolon of the Great Revel, that could also do the trick.

Edit: I'm an idiot, I just read what you wrote, again. To answer your question, WG could be included in a few decks that are already popular but not good enough, they need some help forward to open up the meta more. A green-red creature might not be played in any deck and so the effect would be wasted. I'd love to see it though.

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To be fair, the creature I made is also GG and RR (it's hybrid!). But, I think that's more my point -- White is able to come to the table without the cantrip package precisely because it has all the hate. What we need, assuming the cantrip package is locked into blue, is the hate to be spread to the other colors as well. (in my opinion of course).

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Originally Posted by kinda

Those are both atrocious vs half the format that doesn't run brainstorm. The card needs to be fine vs non brainstorm decks I would think. Put that text on wild nacatl maybe?

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1 CMC 3/3 with hate attached? That seems broken. It could be a 2/2 for 1W Chains on a stick. That way it at least doubles as a threat. Alternatively could make it GW as people suggested so it can be tutored with GSZ.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Chains of Mephistopheles is a card that exists that does a lot of what you're looking for.
If availability wasn't a factor I think you'd see it more often.

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I'm aware of the card.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Looks like they forgot the other part. You'll have to find another example.

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You mean like TC, DTT, Chalice, Lodestone and Probe, which all followed?

Including the original incident, at least 10 different cards have been restricted. Is that enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You mean like TC, DTT, Chalice, Lodestone and Probe, which all followed?

Including the original incident, at least 10 different cards have been restricted. Is that enough for you?

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I can't keep up with these rocket powered goalposts.

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

1 CMC 3/3 with hate attached? That seems broken.

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:frown: ...it really wouldn't be though. Wild nacatl is a running joke in this thread for a reason and it's not even modern viable. Adding the anti cantrip text to make it situationally better might make some people interested in zoo again (which is the goal right?) but miracles/stoneblade/sneak and skill would certainly still be better decks.

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Originally Posted by kinda

:frown: ...it really wouldn't be though. Wild nacatl is a running joke in this thread for a reason and it's not even modern viable. Adding the anti cantrip text to make it situationally better might make some people interested in zoo again (which is the goal right?) but miracles/stoneblade/sneak and skill would certainly still be better decks.

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Nacatl isn't played because Naya colors are not good; not because the card itself is underpowered. If it was BUG/Grixis/RUG colors I'm sure it would be one of the most played threats for the tempo decks.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

I can't keep up with these rocket powered goalposts.

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Where did I lost you? I was hinting that mass-bans don't present a lasting "fix" and delivered an example of 1) a format pretty much ruined for the playerbase due to a mass ban, which you claimed lacks the follow-up bans, except that history proves, that 2) more was banned, because (unsurprisingly) there is always a best deck. Being a bit less cryptic about what you want from me would be really helpful, as it's hard to adress questions consisting of "so?".

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Where did I lost you? I was hinting that mass-bans don't present a lasting "fix" and delivered an example of 1) a format pretty much ruined for the playerbase due to a mass ban, which you claimed lacks the follow-up bans, except that history proves, that 2) more was banned, because (unsurprisingly) there is always a best deck. Being a bit less cryptic about what you want from me would be really helpful, as it's hard to adress questions consisting of "so?".

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He just wants to find a way to make Chalice the best card in the format (it's not; again, Brainstorm's obviously not either), and he's not interested in entertaining the idea that you'd have to cut half the viable decks out of Legacy to make that happen.

FourDogs, it sounds like you're deliberately disregarding what he's saying regardless of its veracity.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

He just wants to find a way to make Chalice the best card in the format (it's not; again, Brainstorm's obviously not either), and he's not interested in entertaining the idea that you'd have to cut half the viable decks out of Legacy to make that happen.

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The problem with the rabbithole of bannings is that you remove more and more viable decks while being unable to fix the problem of "best deck" and complaints about it anyways.

WotC tried both Variants of banning approaches, with just chopping in Legacy whatever floats on top of the cantrip shell, no matter if it was TC, DTT, SDT, DRS or else; and in vintage with a mass banning. Neither case solved the "best deck" issue and both cases resulted in further bans anyways.

So the question is, if we just stick with the cantrip shell as the clear best option and keep just killing the top card every 1-2 years, ban every cardselection and anti-RNG mechanic until Eldrazi Aggro (or the like) become a problem itsel or, just remove Brainstorm and with it the tempo supertype and many combo subtypes to create an even more homgenous metagame.

I see no option which wields a desireable outcome in any case. My personal best-case-scenario of WotC establishing SEVERAL EQUALLY COMPEDITIVE cores is a pipe deam anyways.

i think the main approach here for wotc would be printing cards that have synergies, but aren't very good on their own. eldrazi is a good example of this. even though it's not the most interesting deck, it's nice to see a chalice deck that has some consistency.

I'm kind of diggin' the new 'fair' approach to dredge they are attempting in the new set. They brought back Narco, they added a dredgy Lava Spike, and surveil as a mechanic seems really cool (basically a new keyword for an already existing effect.) The filtering while adding graveyard synergy seems very promising. None of this really has an impact on Legacy, but it shows that even formerly 'bad' mechanics (dredge) aren't off-limits to innovation from a design perspective. Combine that with some fairly predictable legacy playables like Assassin's Trophy and it seems that Wotc might, might, finally have taken their thumb out of their ass. Even Unmoored Ego is a fairly direct answer to Tron lands in modern without banning them (not that Tron is worthy of a ban.) Assassin's Trophy also hits problematic lands efficiently.

I was skeptical of the DRS ban, but overall it seems like a fairly decent effect on the format. Adding relevant new cards to the mix really helps, in my opinion. I wish they would have given us some unbans as well, but we'll see if they pull the trigger at the next ban announcement on those.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I'm in total agreement, but I'm wondering how much of a difference it would actually make to replace Brainstorm with the next-best cantrip.

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I am really surprised by this perspective given that I know you play/have played Storm.

Brainstorm is head and shoulders above all the other cantrips; it just does so many more things. Fixes bad draws, is instant speed against discard, lets you put back one-ofs, can get you multiple distinct cards at once as opposed to a single specific card, sets up the top of your deck if that's relevant, etc, etc.

Getting rid of brainstorm might be enough to put me off ANT, and that would be a huge bummer (though a little while ago I bought cradles so I could have Elves and still play engine combo in case they banned Probe...figured they'd do Deathrite or Probe but not both, look where that got me....:cry:) I don't think they should ban brainstorm because the card is just so sweet and fun to play with, but I think it would be way more reasonable if it were "draw two, put back one" - could still set up terminus and get your Ad Nauseam or Tendrils back in your deck, but would "unmulligan" considerably less.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick.

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Yes, that's what Magic needs - more miserable, tutorable, binary hatebears...

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Originally Posted by Bithlord

{R/G}{R/G}
hexproof.
2/1
When a player draws a card, other than the first card of their draw step, ~ deals 2 damage to that player.

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I actually like this, because it applies pressure without being just a binary switch of, "oh, now your deck doesn't work at all" like many of the white hatebears/chalice. I do think hexproof is a really, really dumb mechanic, though.

Also, there are other options against turn one combo that are color ambivalent, like the leylines/mindbreak trap/surgical/faerie macabre/etc; I don't think just straight up printing force in other colors makes sense, and it would muddy the color pie. I'm not saying there aren't opportunities to print more early interaction for other colors, but there's no reason it has t be pitch counterspells.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

it's nice to see a chalice deck that has some consistency.

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....is it, though? :eyebrow:




(no, those decks are boring and ask nothing of their pilots.)

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

He just wants to find a way to make Chalice the best card in the format (it's not; again, Brainstorm's obviously not either), and he's not interested in entertaining the idea that you'd have to cut half the viable decks out of Legacy to make that happen.

FourDogs, it sounds like you're deliberately disregarding what he's saying regardless of its veracity.

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Well, I'm sure it looks like that to you a guy who thinks I want Chalice to be good.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

I am really surprised by this perspective given that I know you play/have played Storm.

Brainstorm is head and shoulders above all the other cantrips; it just does so many more things. Fixes bad draws, is instant speed against discard, lets you put back one-ofs, can get you multiple distinct cards at once as opposed to a single specific card, sets up the top of your deck if that's relevant, etc, etc.

Getting rid of brainstorm might be enough to put me off ANT, and that would be a huge bummer.

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I think out of the many combo decks in Legacy, AnTs core is the one most likely to survive without Brainstorm, due to how the deck core is constructed.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

....is it, though? :eyebrow:

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Good God yes. It's good to have something running around attacking the meta the way it does. Chalice, Choke (Though Plug has vanished.) and Moon are all important cards.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

... I don't think just straight up printing force in other colors makes sense, and it would muddy the color pie. I'm not saying there aren't opportunities to print more early interaction for other colors, but there's no reason it has t be pitch counterspells. ...

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I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

Yes, that's what Magic needs - more miserable, tutorable, binary hatebears...

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You're entitled to not like hatebears, but do you really think any hatebears are making the format miserable? In my view, hatebears allow permanent based strategies to interact with spell based strategies. And if they are good enough they force spell based decks to play some answers to them. This makes for more interactive games and a more varied metagame, not less. If spell-based decks get to ignore permanents, that makes for more miserable games in my view..

Edit: dividing decks into spell-based vs permanent based decks is an oversimplification, I don't define them because I'm guessing the general idea is clear anyway. Hope that is fine, or else we shall discuss!

Edit2: I can see why you wouldn't want hatebears to have shroud though, and that is perfectly reasonable..

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think out of the many combo decks in Legacy, AnTs core is the one most likely to survive without Brainstorm, due to how the deck core is constructed.

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Dark Ritual wins games.

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Originally Posted by rufus

I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.

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That would be awesome. Actually, why HAVEN'T they done that?

FourDogs, I realize I was being a bit trashed and indecorous in my previous post. Sorry about that.

EDIT: The discussion of hatebears is interesting to me. I agree that it would be cool to see more of them in slightly different colors, but that raises some issues in red and black because Rituals are real.

One thing I've noticed is that of all the lockpieces Wizards has printed over the past few years, few of them are strong enough to replace tools that are already there in their colors. But doubtless, there will come a time that someone figures out how to jam all of them into a viable 60, and printing more would only hasten that. I don't necessarily think that would be bad for the format, but I can't say I'd be happy to see it given that I'm a combo junkie. Designing hatebears is tough because it's difficult to make them viable but not totally patently busted.

I'd also like to mention that one of Legacy's strengths (compared to every format except maybe Commander) is that combo is a robust supertype in the format, and I don't think I'd be the only person to seriously consider cashing out if that were to change. I'll Burn 'em out as readily as the next guy, but there's something special about decks that don't do what Magic decks are supposed to do.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

I actually like this, because it applies pressure without being just a binary switch of, "oh, now your deck doesn't work at all" like many of the white hatebears/chalice. I do think hexproof is a really, really dumb mechanic, though.

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I'd be all about shroud instead. But, WotC in their "infinite" wisdom, has decreed that mechanics with both upsides and downsides are "not fun", and therefore are not allowed.

I'm a big fan of taxing things, rather than prohibiting them. Because, like you noted, it doesn't turn off a deck, just makes it weaker.

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Originally Posted by rufus

I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.

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Ricochet Trap is about as close as we have now...and it has to be triggered by blue, and still costs R to cast. It's an underutilized gem, but I get what you mean. We need pitch cards like Force of Will that aren't terrible, and Misdirection effects fit a lot better in red.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think out of the many combo decks in Legacy, AnTs core is the one most likely to survive without Brainstorm, due to how the deck core is constructed.

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I'm sure some version of the deck would still be playable, but I think it would be much, much worse. I have won so many games I had no business winning because a topdecked brainstorm turned my hand of a ritual and three bricks into a game-winning line that it's hard to believe that losing the "hand reconstruction" effect wouldn't severely weaken the deck.

Wouldn't something like SnT, where you just have to find busted pokemon A + cheaty enabler B just be better at that point?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Good God yes. It's good to have something running around attacking the meta the way it does. Chalice, Choke and Moon are all important cards.

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So, I don't dispute that cards like Chalice, Choke, and Moon are important regulatory valves to particular excesses, but I do dispute that their viability is something "good to see."

Stompy decks make for some of the absolute most binary, random, boring "games" (if you can call them that) of magic you can get, and then after you randomly lose to them having Chalice into TKS two games in a row, they go ahead and lose several rounds after knocking you out because they didn't get the sol land into dumb lock piece draw, so they just feel like random pairings landmines.

I don't think they need to be banned or anything, but if I never got paired against a Chalice deck again in Legacy, it would be too soon.

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Originally Posted by rufus

I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.

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This actually sounds sweet.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

You're entitled to not like hatebears, but do you really think any hatebears are making the format miserable? In my view, hatebears allow permanent based strategies to interact with spell based strategies. And if they are good enough they force spell based decks to play some answers to them. This makes for more interactive games and a more varied metagame, not less. If spell-based decks get to ignore permanents, that makes for more miserable games in my view.

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I actually don't really disagree with this all that much, it just feels like they're constantly printing new idiots that just make it impossible to do anything interesting. I get that duder decks need a way to interact with combo, but why are they all these functional gates where it's either:

1. Don't draw Thalia/Teeg/Canonist, etc, get run over.
2. Draw one, opponents deck is now a ham sandwich.

For instance, they're never gonna print, like:

1U

At the beginning of your upkeep, each of your opponents mills two.

Creatures can't attack.

Or:

1B

All creatures get -2/-2.

That's what cards like Thalia or Teeg feel like to combo decks, if you were a creature deck. The second one doesn't even attack! Still never seeing the light of day.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Dark Ritual wins games.

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YASSS

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I'll Burn 'em out as readily as the next guy

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OH GOD VOMIT REACT

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

but there's something special about decks that don't do what Magic decks are supposed to do.

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This is what makes me want to play magic.

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Originally Posted by taconaut

I don't think they need to be banned or anything, but if I never got paired against a Chalice deck again in Legacy, it would be too soon.

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Want a game? I got Stax ready to go and it's really fun. It's quite an active deck, well, when it doesn't self distruct.

@Taconaut: I see, I wouldn't want to push combo decks out of the format or bring them too much disadvantage. I imagine a hexproof, or shrouded, card draw preventing hatebear would often be ignored by combo decks as they can win right through him and in addition both Ponder, Preordain, Intuition and Impulse work relatively well through it, while combo decks can, and often do, play sweepers that would remove it - and both Omnishow (splashing red) and TES have maindeck wishes that can find removal, sweepers, for it. It would be more relevant vs the fair decks that depend on spot removal to get rid of opposing creatures, these decks are not threatened much by Spirit of the Labyrinth and they could still Daze, FoW or just race the hexproof/shrouded hatebear with their Delvers or Gurmags or Mentors or whatever. And they can play edict effects and sweepers. I can see how many would object to the printing of such a powerful (I'm not sure how powerful it would be) hatebear but I think it perhaps might help some green, nonblue decks get on more even ground with the blue ones. And that alone would open up for other decks that would be good vs these green decks (like the combo decks, perhaps, and even other strategies). Well, this is just what I imagine and probably would be way off..

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Combine that with some fairly predictable legacy playables like Assassin's Trophy and it seems that Wotc might, might, finally have taken their thumb out of their ass. Even Unmoored Ego is a fairly direct answer to Tron lands in modern without banning them (not that Tron is worthy of a ban.) Assassin's Trophy also hits problematic lands efficiently.

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Field of Ruin, Damping Sphere, Alpine Moon, Assassin's Trophy, and now this. If Wizards is this intent on hurting Tron (even though it's never actually been the best deck in Modern), it'd be nice if they'd actually toss some hate towards the decks that are consistently outperforming it. When are we going to get an Engineered Plague reprint as anti-Humans tech already?

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Field of Ruin, Damping Sphere, Alpine Moon, Assassin's Trophy, and now this. If Wizards is this intent on hurting Tron (even though it's never actually been the best deck in Modern), it'd be nice if they'd actually toss some hate towards the decks that are consistently outperforming it. When are we going to get an Engineered Plague reprint as anti-Humans tech already?

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Just reprinting EE so Modern players could buy it would really help.