Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Not suggesting we should account for "fringe" strategies, but even more established/meta decks are starting to run these problem walkers. Rather than change our lists once these walkers become more common, shouldn't we be proactive in having cards to stop them (so we're not caught off guard)? To add, Clique is a solid card even in the absence of these problem walkers.
the only decks i've seen play these walkers are random junk walker decks and 4c loam, both fringe. they might be in other decks but currently i'm not aware of what those decks are. i guess gideon saw some play in the top 8 of columbus but even then, 1 decklist isn't really a pandemic or a reason to act, especially given legacy's glacial progression.
being proactive is good but you can't be proactive about everything without being willing to dilute the lean-ness of your deck. for example, if i begin to worry about these walkers, then i have to worry about problems x, y, z. and the answer to all those problems is probably a super clunky card like CJ or venser or weird stuff that i personally am not a fan of playing
also yes, clique is still "solid" but the other cards (again imo) are "better" in a majority of situations. nobody is wrong for playing some number but in terms of theory i dont think the downgrade to "master of none, jack of all" is worth it... yet
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I now have the urge to sell some SDT....
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/ban-miracles
is this the end?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I hate to say that I would be happy to see it happen, but I do feel the format would become more diverse.
I don't think we need to start worrying though, Caleb Durward had a ban Top article a while ago andd nothing came of it. Also, Sensei's Divining Top was literally JUST REPRINTED.
Now, Wizards have been known to reprint staples and then ban them not 6 months later (Modern Masters 2015 Splinter Twin: I'm lookin at you), so maybe I feel too safe.
If it does get banned, I think we should port Modern UWR Nahiri. The Snapcaster/Mentor + a million cantrip shell is still there, and it really isn't too far a cry from Miracles these days.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
Also, Sensei's Divining Top was literally JUST REPRINTED.
So was Mana crypt, lol.
I am edging on the side of them not doing anything, though.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
the only decks i've seen play these walkers are random junk walker decks and 4c loam, both fringe.
4c Loam is not fringe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
If I had a dollar every time CFB put out and article about banning Miracles...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Ban the Angels : Another problem that Miracles raises is the fact that the Miracles player can just stall for 40 minutes, holding Entreat the Angels of top of his deck, eventually playing it to win the game and leaving just a few minutes after sideboarding to let you win the match 1-0. Matt Sperling covered the ethics of such a play—I say that if a deck is capable of such a thing, it shouldn't be legal.
This is the only good arguments I read in the whole article. And banning the Angels dosent sound like killing Miracle at all. I can deal with an Angels ban.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Of course that play should be legal. One of the important skills in playing *against* Miracles in a tournament is knowing when to scoop.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Of course that play should be legal. One of the important skills in playing *against* Miracles in a tournament is knowing when to scoop.
It's the Modern-players' mentality: if I can't beat it, it's their fault not mine. Thus, their only solution is to ban their deck so I don't need to git gud.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
a) clique just feels less powerful lately. its great as a flash beater vs liliana but against shardless 4x snap 3x mentor 3x cs is sufficient to stop her. clique is also mediocre vs eldrazi as its inefficient at blocking; the ability to race is pretty cool but contingent on not plowing one of their big dudes. similarly clique is worse vs grixis delver since it doesnt interact positively with YP or DRS and delver is manageable via blast x1,2,3,4,howevermanyyouwant. in the mirror clique is fine but predict replaces it as the flash threat of choice. clique seldomly resolves while predict can, and being able to protect predict w/ a flusterstorm a turn sooner is critical. vs combo like storm clique is nice in that it is a bigger clock than snapcaster but really vs combo 2 snapcasters combined w/ infinite counterspells is pretty sufficient. the exception is sneak and show for the reason that peeking in their hand is relevant vs boseiju, but i dont know if the % points are worth it.
b) every matchup
c) counterbalance isn't really that great right now. most decks have adapted to it in some way or the other (read: gp lists). on modo it was appearing quite early, but decks like storm have 6 answers now, cb was never great vs shardless or eldrazi, in the mirror cb is good but not on the level of other cards like red blast and snapcaster. i wonder sometimes if i can just play the deck without counterbalances, but out of fear i still play 3. the inspiration was pvddr's top 8 list, which only had 2 counterbalances. if it weren't for lands and burn, who knows, maybe i'd play two as well. counterspell is a generically good card that functions somewhat similarly to cb. the big difference is that it is low power, but high utility (ie less generic). i prefer my build to be as consistent as possible while being just barely powerful enough to win, and this change to 3 cb 3 cs reflects that
d) burn. oops. maybe 1 vs elves. card is a 2 mana instant speed divination, a control player's wettest dreams. i wouldn't board it out ever if i could get away with it
One last thing I don't get, if we board in 4th Snapcaster Mage in every matchup why isn't in the main deck?
BTW I'm trying out predictable miracles and it works just fine, do you feel having a 3rd mentor in sb fulfill a similar role to a miser blood moon Vs. midrange decks?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
It's the Modern-players' mentality: if I can't beat it, it's their fault not mine. Thus, their only solution is to ban their deck so I don't need to git gud.
Totally agree. I guess the worry is that Wizzards will take the same approach as the do to Modern and just ban something. Don't know how you guys feel about it, but:
If they ban top the Miracles deck is dead.
If they ban Terminus a counter-top shell will still exist, but creature strategies will become much more powerful. I'll probably try to make Bonfire of the Damned work as a replacement. Probably won't work ;)
If they ban Counterbalance a miracles shell will still exist, but storm/delver strategies become much more powerful. I'll probably try to make Scepter work as a replacement. Probably won't work ;)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
prepare4robots
Totally agree. I guess the worry is that Wizzards will take the same approach as the do to Modern and just ban something. Don't know how you guys feel about it, but:
If they ban top the Miracles deck is dead.
If they ban Terminus a counter-top shell will still exist, but creature strategies will become much more powerful. I'll probably try to make Bonfire of the Damned work as a replacement. Probably won't work ;)
If they ban Counterbalance a miracles shell will still exist, but storm/delver strategies become much more powerful. I'll probably try to make Scepter work as a replacement. Probably won't work ;)
Wizards probably won't do anything. I really hope they don't, anyway. TC and DTT really were smothering, but Miracles isn't overly dominant, just overly popular.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Wizards probably won't do anything. I really hope they don't, anyway. TC and DTT really were smothering, but Miracles isn't overly dominant, just overly popular.
I totally agree with you. I worry that Wizards doesn't know the difference....
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
One last thing I don't get, if we board in 4th Snapcaster Mage in every matchup why isn't in the main deck?
BTW I'm trying out predictable miracles and it works just fine, do you feel having a 3rd mentor in sb fulfill a similar role to a miser blood moon Vs. midrange decks?
Because its better post board with more targets (4 pyro/reb etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Miracles isn't overly dominant, just overly popular.
Its pretty dominant when you look at the results.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsck
Its pretty dominant when you look at the results.
The results don't tell you much unless you take into account the Day 1 frequency of the deck as well. Since it's no secret Miracles is the most played deck, it would make sense that it puts more copies into Day 2 than a deck that isn't as widely played.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi everybody! Long-time lurker, first time poster.
I looked up MTGtop8 earlier this morning, and I wanted to share the following:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3879&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3957&d=223399&f=LE
The discussion about the popularity of Miracles made me wonder if there was a historical analogue/antecedent. This appears to be the time when (Shardless) BUG/Team America had its heyday: it was shortly after Deathrite Shaman was printed, and that Delver of Secrets was primarily the engine for Canadian Threshold. (And, more than that, Canadian Threshold was the deck of decks at the time).
They were popular, but not unbeatable. It took the metagame a little while to adjust, but each deck settled in and came down from both their popularity but also their matchup strength.
Miracles is popular, sure, but it's also been popular for just. so. long. that I think people are getting tired of seeing it everywhere. (I certainly don't blame them; a bigger target on the deck's back makes it harder for an individual player to get wins :wink: ). I hope nothing gets banned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
One last thing I don't get, if we board in 4th Snapcaster Mage in every matchup why isn't in the main deck?
I think the idea is that, post-board, there are more cards we want to take out. The extra Snap gives us more ways to access the cheap spells we want to (repeatedly) cast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
BTW I'm trying out predictable miracles and it works just fine, do you feel having a 3rd mentor in sb fulfill a similar role to a miser blood moon Vs. midrange decks?
As Minniehajj (et al.) has mentioned in previous posts, there's a certain catchall preparation that most opponents have to Blood Moon. It works to slow down opponents, but it requires a certain mini-lock--or at least delicate timing--to know when to cast and resolve it. (If they have a basic Plains or basic Forest? Expect a Disenchant or Krosan Grip, respectively).
My understanding is that Mentor has the strongest outlet against midrange Shardless BUG; after Shardless has committed to the board (Goyfs and Agents) and, presumably, after they've Brainstormed-away their boardwipes, a Mentor that makes monk tokens can act as a strong defensive card. In that matchup, Blood Moon can be a lock, but it doesn't threaten an active win the way that a defensive Mentor would.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
its rather sad that you guys don't give kudos to Joe Lossett and coming in 2nd in the Columbus GP using his Legends Miracles.
You're all fixated on "Predictables"
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MiraclesWizard
its rather sad that you guys don't give kudos to Joe Lossett and coming in 2nd in the Columbus GP using his Legends Miracles.
You're all fixated on "Predictables"
Yeah, not sure what that's about.
Super awesome congrats to Joe (oarsman) for those that don't know! He ran the table day one with a perfect 9-0 record and played some really really good magic all weekend long. Definitely great to see him do so well at the event, with his trademark legends build! Keep it up sir!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3hmyth
Hi everybody! Long-time lurker, first time poster.
I looked up MTGtop8 earlier this morning, and I wanted to share the following:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3879&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3957&d=223399&f=LE
The discussion about the popularity of Miracles made me wonder if there was a historical analogue/antecedent. This appears to be the time when (Shardless) BUG/Team America had its heyday: it was shortly after Deathrite Shaman was printed, and that Delver of Secrets was primarily the engine for Canadian Threshold. (And, more than that, Canadian Threshold was the deck of decks at the time).
They were popular, but not unbeatable. It took the metagame a little while to adjust, but each deck settled in and came down from both their popularity but also their matchup strength.
Miracles is popular, sure, but it's also been popular for
just. so. long. that I think people are getting tired of seeing it everywhere. (I certainly don't blame them; a bigger target on the deck's back makes it harder for an individual player to get wins :wink: ). I hope nothing gets banned.
You can blame the field-percentage on all the Modern players buying into the best deck in the format. Enfranchised Legacy players will switch decks if they get bored, but new players don't have the collection size to do that. It's a bummer but it's their fault for buying into a deck that they suck at piloting just because it's been touted as the best deck in the format.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
You can blame the field-percentage on all the Modern players buying into the best deck in the format. Enfranchised Legacy players will switch decks if they get bored, but new players don't have the collection size to do that. It's a bummer but it's their fault for buying into a deck that they suck at piloting just because it's been touted as the best deck in the format.
thats the problems, good pilots play legacy decks for years to master it. We have a lot of people coming into the format (which is good) who don't know the meta, don't know the decks, don't know the strategies. You can put the "best deck" in a poor pilot's hands and they'll still lose.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Minniehajj
Yeah, not sure what that's about.
Super awesome congrats to Joe (oarsman) for those that don't know! He ran the table day one with a perfect 9-0 record and played some really really good magic all weekend long. Definitely great to see him do so well at the event, with his trademark legends build! Keep it up sir!
Big congrats to the oarsman! It's a shame about the finish :frown: "Always a bridesmaid..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MiraclesWizard
its rather sad that you guys don't give kudos to Joe Lossett and coming in 2nd in the Columbus GP using his Legends Miracles.
You're all fixated on "Predictables"
I think that because Joe has such thorough tactical knowledge and has tuned his list to himself that it feels that his results are different from the other theoretical developments in the thread. If I could play as well as Joe, it wouldn't matter as much what list I'm running or how tuned it is, because my mental evaluations of each situation would be much stronger.
