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Goblin, Foodchain, stack of red cards and the need to get it right and hope someone does not force something important.
Eldrazi, Griffin, Foodchain, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Manipulate Fate, Baleful Strix and Walking Ballista.
Someone please help, I can not work out which of these is the more threatening pile.
Look, I love Goblins and all but Goblin Recruiter is pretty tame compared to a lot of the stuff in the format already, whether it's FCG or just regular Vial Goblins. Comparing it to Tinker, one of the most broken cards ever printed, is absurd. Is this a troll?
yeah tinker is safe recruiter isn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
We have our answer. Ok all, don't feed this moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
OhOh The Source. You never seem to let me down when it comes to insanity
https://i.imgur.com/JWyCbik.gif
This shit again.
I'll just cut to the chase and save us all the time: Balance is obviously a fine card, even as a 4-of. The card is even named Balance, so what could be more balanced than that?
https://data.whicdn.com/images/304979704/original.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Couple things. Whoever thinks Tinker should be unbanned had better have a brain tumor or be completely new to older Magic formats. It's a one card combo. It can adapt to any changes in the metagame cause there are enough busted artifacts to get that'll answer anything. It also won't ever get unbanned anyway so why even bring it up?
Goblin Recruiter and Earthcraft are banned for different reasons than Tinker. It doesn't make much sense to compare them besides the fact they're all on the same banned list. Tinker is banned for power level reasons. Goblin Recruiter is banned for logistical reasons. It's probably the least powerful card on the list, but it takes FOREVER to resolve. And don't come at me with the excuse that people should only play it if they're good. That's not how signing up for a Magic tournament works. Bad players play at every Grand Prix. At least if a bad player plays ANT they'll fuck up their cantrips or miscount their mana and die. You go up against a bad Goblins player at any Comp. Rel. tournament (i.e. most Goblins players), prepare to be sitting there for five minutes for this one trigger to resolve. On top of this, if Sensei's Divining Top is banned, Goblin Recruiter certainly won't be unbanned. Despite not being that good, Goblin Recruiter does allow you to stack your entire deck which is a far more broken affect than what Top did.
Earthcraft is just banned cause it's on the Reserved List. There's literally no other reason for it to stay on the list. Elves doesn't even need it anymore. It should come off and I think Legacy would improve cause Enchantress would be another viable(ish) option. But, WotC doesn't want to remind people of the RL so it'll just stay there.
You'd think there would be some kind of rule to punish players guilty of this...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeckBird
https://78.media.tumblr.com/b32dd094...1uuio1_500.gif
Is there anyway to put a dunce cap over someone's username? I think that would actually be a qol improvement for the forum.
Can we just unban workshops already? Artifacts suck in this format anyways.
Word, the fun police is just trying to take our fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Can you tell me which artifact is not answered by sword/council/command/disenchant etc... ? There are two memory jar which is banned and sundering titan. If you except sundering titan tinker is fine. card disadvantage it is true story.Quote:
Couple things. Whoever thinks Tinker should be unbanned had better have a brain tumor or be completely new to older Magic formats. It's a one card combo. It can adapt to any changes in the metagame cause there are enough busted artifacts to get that'll answer anything. It also won't ever get unbanned anyway so why even bring it up?
Yes, there are slow play rules. And yet Top, Frantic Search, and Goblin Recruiter are all banned. Wizards isn't unbanning Recruiter as it's more egregious than the other two. Now, if we could implement a chess clock at paper tournaments then I'm all for an unban.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
https://media.giphy.com/media/xThuW2...qmUU/giphy.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Okay, I think I'm done. All out of Shaun Murphy gifs...
Tinker is a good card because you can tinker for bofa.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Not even needed since there are only a handful of people that would bother playing the deck. :P It would make me ecstatic though and I'd bust out my Taigas so fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Shuffling once, then revealing all the cards is a legal shortcut -- assuming nothing has intervened in between resolutions that would change the state of your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
There's good reasons Mind's Desire is banned, but the shuffling time isn't them.
There isn't a permanent in the game that isn't answered by these cards, yet, there are permanents on the banned list. In your line of though then, all permanents should be taken off the list, yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
By the same token, all spells on the Banned list can be answered by Force of Will/Counterspell. Consequently, all spells should be taken off the Banned list.
Also, Stifle cleanly answers Goblin Recruiter, therefor Recruiter is necessarily fine to unban. (And also Storm, so get Mind's Desire in there.)
See guys, format management is easy.
I am on the contrary for the ban of goblin recruiter, but tinker is safe because it is card disadvantage, most decks have answered to the creature/artifact you go for cause it doesn't produce an immediate impact in term of CA.Quote:
There isn't a permanent in the game that isn't answered by these cards, yet, there are permanents on the banned list. In your line of though then, all permanents should be taken off the list, yes?
By the same token, all spells on the Banned list can be answered by Force of Will/Counterspell. Consequently, all spells should be taken off the Banned list.
Also, Stifle cleanly answers Goblin Recruiter, therefor Recruiter is necessarily fine to unban. (And also Storm, so get Mind's Desire in there.)
I didn't say that evry card that can be answered shldn't be banned, most cards which are banned are because they are must answered or win on the spot, produce huge CA (here recruiter) or too much redundance (one cc tutors).
Survival is banned because if t it resolves it wins with huge CA, hermit druid is banned because it wins on the spot, tutors are banned because for their cc they produce too much redudancy. Treasure cruise and DTT are banned because of the CA.
Tinker is fine cause you just search for an artifact that can be easily answered. In this term show and tell which wins on the spot is more problematic to me and so more banworthy. In vintage by example jeskai mentor doesn't play tinker while still playing lot of artifacts.
As for myself I think mind's desire is safe cause 6 mana is a lot and you need storm already to 6-7 to win and it is a really gamble you can storm 6-7 mind's desire and still lose, most storm decks will not switch to mind's desire, current decklist are better.
Unfortunately, your criteria doesn't even pass it's own internal logic. Cards that are banned because they "must be answered" are fine to ban. OK, good thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
However, then you say:
Now the criterion is different. Now cards that "must be answered" are OK, so long as they get something "easily answered."Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
You'll probably retort that Tinker is not a "must answer" card then. So, I'll preemptively ask you, if your opponent Tinkers for Blightsteel on Turn 1. What do you need to do? Get a ham sandwich? Take up sailing? Or, perhaps, you must answer Blightsteel (and by extension, the Tinker) or the game ends?
Sorry man, I love Tinker too. It's not a Legacy card though, by any stretch of the imagination.
Just cast your one mana sword, your two mana diabolic edict in this term show and tell is much more problematic cause griselbrand or omnisience is GG and it doesn't even produce card disadvantage.
Or vampire hexmage into marit lage.
Also tinker turn one is harder to do than show and tell turn one you need tomb+2 petals contrary tomb+petal for show and tell.
There is alos lot of hate available grafdigger's cage and containment priest
So, now you've conceded that the Tinker was must answer and then further proved so by illustrating your idea that Show and Tell is a must answer card and then likening Tinker to it. If Show and Tell is a problem, then so would Tinker be. Again, you've failed your own logical foundation for why Tinker is OK to unban. Card disadvantage doesn't matter if your play wins the game. In fact, this is why Force of Will is a playable card.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
In reality, Tinker is likely much better than Show and Tell, because it only requires 1 copy of a given artifact to be in the deck, not in your hand, when you cast it. This means the rest of your deck can have more things that aren't redundant, dead combo pieces. And you propose it as OK in a format with 4x Brainstorm no less.
Sorry, your analysis defies logic, even it's own established kind, and anything we can see as good sense. You really need to do better.
Well, now you went and added this, further moving the goal posts. Now, you equate Tinker with A+B combos. Which it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
But then, you attempt to make the case that "available hate" means it is OK to unban. There is the same hate for Oath of Druids, is that card OK to unban?
You aren't making any coherent argument. Just declaring "facts" which you imagine support your precluded idea that Tinker is OK to unban. It's not. And you've done nothing to illustrate the idea that it would or could be.
This is all a joke but:
Sol Land, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal, Tinker is 4 cards to win, assuming Blightsteel with a single turn for the opponent to draw something or die.
Sol Land, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell & card in hand is 4 cards to win, assuming same win condition. If Omniscience is the card in hand, then 5 cards needed to follow up with. Also they get to put a card into play.
A joke is a joke, but come on.
I'm pretty sure if Tinker was legal the deck built around it would have free artifacts to sacrifice in abundance. At a minimum I think it would have some amount of Baubles (Mishras, Urza's), Lotus Petals, Chrome Mox, maybe even Mox Opal. T1 Tinker would be a breeze, protected with your friend and mine, Force of Will. That's just the speed issue; the other issue is what can you do with it if you have 1-2 turns to set up? It would be depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Blightsteel is one avenue but I wouldn't want to see Sundering Titan or Inkwell Leviathan, either. Turning a Seat of the Synod into any of those is broken not just for efficiency, but because it's also a tutor. Show and Tell at least requires you to have your combo piece in hand. And don't get me started on how Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere would be nuts in a Tinker deck, either.
the problem with what you are saying is that show and tell wins if not COUNTERED while with tinker you have much more answers you have also removals ; meaning you have no dead cards in your deck to answer it.
Show and tell is much better than tinker and it is not ban and it is not even a tier one deck so I don't see any reason why tinker is banned. That would prodcue new tier 2-3 decks good for diversity but likely not break the format.
Most removal in the game does not deal with Blightsteel. Even most of the removal actually played doesn't. Again, there are answers to every card in the game, that doesn't make them healthy to unban in Legacy. You could preemptively Pithing Needle Survival of the Fittest, but that doesn't mean Survival is ok to unban. Also, when resolving Tinker, you are not set on getting just Blightsteel. You could have Thoughtsiezed your opponent earlier and knowing what they have, get something they can't answer, again, because as has been pointed out, Tinker is a tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Again, your argument makes no real logical sense even by it's own proposed rules.
Once more for the cheap seats: Show and Tell has a built-in out to itself.
Unban Library, clearly a win-more card, dies to Wasteland, 8 card combo.
Source: My extensive experience playing it in Cube decks on mulls to 5. Didn't do shit, so much for "most powerful land". Overhyped/10 would not tap.
Can confirm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape
They could reprint tinker at RRR, then it would be fine.
Jesus fucking Christ! Why is Tinker compared with SnT? One combo uses 5 slots total and one combo piece in hand, the other needs 12-16 and 2 combo parts in hand. Claiming the first is worse than the second clearly was not the slightest clue of deck construction/theory.
Edit:
Sure. Give modern storm access to t1/t2 Blightsteel Colossus. Seems fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinda
So if you're in a close game, or up a game, you don't use the shortcut and waste all the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bithlord
I would certainly be happier with Modern if storm tried to kill me with a blightsteel colossus instead of grapeshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Upvote. Library of Alexandria is the sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape
I think Black Lotus is safe to unban too. One time, I drew it on turn 7 and it was absolute fucking garbage. Another time, my opponent was on the Play and put a Chalice on Zero! Black Lotus worse than a land, confirmed. Card is just not very good unless you specifically have it turn 1 and you are on the play. Clearly safe to unban in Legacy. Ceremonious Rejection exists too.
I played it in extended. Time shuffling wasn't an issue -- because if you play it for any reasonable amount the game is over already and your opponent concedes unless it's their second loss. in extended, playing it for 5-6 was enough to win easily. In Legacy you would be able to get much higher numbers, with relative ease.Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Exactly! All these Mana Vaults, Mox emeralds, Sol Rings and Workshops are junk if you cant cast your Ancestral off them. No need to keep that useless junk restricted or outright banned. Ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I agree, ban Islands!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But then how am I going to pay Nix? Which I shouldn't have to tell you is the best answer to to lotus bloom!Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Eladamri's Vineyard into Manamorphose, the way God intendedQuote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit