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Intresting idea. Do you have a more complete list?Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
I used to run 3 Petals sideboard to ramp out Thalia/Canonist/Teeg (depending on the version I played) turn 1 vs. storm on game 2. Actually had the happy few moments where this also happened.
Unfortunately I don't, but I'll try something like this as a starting point, I think:
// Monkey Taxes
// 60 Maindeck
// 6 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
// 27 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Flickerwisp
1 Stonecloaker
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Phyrexian Revoker
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 23 Land
2 Plateau
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
// 6 Sideboard
// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Pyroblast
(I find Mindcensor interesting because it can virtually shut down opponent's fetchlands as soon as T2 with that list, flies, and is light on W mana.)
Spirit guide mana is best against combo. It’s pretty bleh against Daze, honestly. Pitching it to counter Daze does not actually happen. Thalia gets played turn 1 instead. In fact, anything that gets Thalia on turn 1 or Big Thalia in turn 2 deserves serious consideration. (Mox, Petal)
Definitely need a list because I don't see how you run SSG without undercutting critical creature count unless you 1) run less than 4 and/or 2) cut down your land count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draggo
DnT is a control deck and we usually want to drag the game out and out card-advantage them rather than beat them quickly with an empty hand. I think if you're gonna shift to a Plateau Stompy direction, you need to increase the number of fast lock pieces - definitely Magus, maybe even something like Leonin Arbiter, which is as strong a t1 play as Thalia. Cavern is also good to ensure your self two-for-one actually resolves. (Hard to design a manabase that works with all of those cards though.)
For a traditional WR DnT build, I have sometimes considered a 1-of SSG, but it's hard to judge what the value of that kind of 1-of is. A playset is definitely bad, there's a reason why people don't just throw Lotus Petals into every deck. But a 1-of could just catch your opponent off guard once in a while. WR can actually cast the card and sometimes you just need a creature on board to go with your equipment, so it's not a dead draw. But you usually don't win legacy games with a board of Grey Ogres.
I'm with iatee on this, though the idea is at least intriguing since turn 1 locks can be very good. however, it does tend to increase our tendency to very quickly go into top-deck mode. My experience with SSG is with decks also running Gemstone Caverns and Chalice of the Void.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Something along these lines?
7 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
26 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
23 Land
2 Plateau
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
Does anyone out there have extensive testing with Ghost Quarter? Is it worth it as a one of or two of? Grixis has recently moved to playing four basic lands, so perhaps now is not the right time, but it is additional disruption and seems like it would be effective when paired with Cataclysm.
I'd say that the card is not good if not paired with leonin arbiter.Quote:
Originally Posted by JitteJitte
Also, there is a lot of non basic hate currently and with DRS gone, lots of decks have more basics than before the ban.
I'd say no in the current meta.
Personally, I don't like going down to two Revokers, because I draw it less when I actually need it, but still draw it often enough in the matchups where it sucks that I feel like I'm basically even on one front and losing on the other. Moreover, I don't want to play a 24th land currently, and most of the cards I'd play over a third Revoker are three drops, and I want to keep my curve lower. My local meta is pretty good for Revoker, with multiple D&T mirrors and lots of random combo decks, but I'm happy to have the extra card that's easy to board out in the bad matchups as well. I agree that we aren't in a world where 4 Revokers is necessary anymore, but I support and will be playing 3 for the time being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
Holy cow! My last few tournaments on mtgo have been an endless nightmare of Big Green Eldrazi, BUG with what seems like full sets of Liliana, the Last Hope, Assassin's Trophy, and Abrupt Decay, and TES. Is anybody else experiencing this, and, if so, how are you adapting?
I just played two leagues in the last few hours and faced: Dredge, Elves, Reanimator, RUG Delver, Depths, UR Delver, Shardless, Lands, 4c Loam, UW Stoneblade, so you probably just hit a weird set of matches.
So has d&d fallen off the cliff again? Looked over the last few weeks of challenge results and not a single decklist to be found. Storm, dredge and reanimator are all back on the rise again which may explain why our results are less than stellar.
EW is in a few weeks and I’m nervous to go into a room full of grixis and combo.
D&T still puts up plenty of results on mtgtop8. It's tied with Death's Shadow, and they only trail Grixis and UWx control as far as number of top 8 appearances.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
I know one site isn't everything, but the deck ain't dead.
Hello all ! What is your side against Delver Shadow ? And do you board out Revokers ?
Grixis Control is, to me, the only singularly bad match-up aside from Elves. Sneak and Show is of course tough if Omnitell is what you are facing and Miracles is always challenging. EDIT: Post Eldrazi is bad, thanks to Walking Ballista.
There is an uptick in Storm, but that is not actually bad for us unless we lose before turn 2. EDIT: UB Death's Shadow is very beatable.
I hate to say it, but if Grixis Control and UB Death's Shadow (a deck that should prey on Grixis Control) are what you fear facing in your meta, it isn't awful to consider cards like Devout Lightcaster, which is both pro-B and a source of recurring exile for any B permanent, and Paladin en-Vec, which is first strike + Pro-B/R, which UB Death's Shadow has essentially no answer to and which Grixis only deals with via Toxic Deluge and Edict effects. Given the playability of Goblin Cratermaker in Grixis and the stupid synergy of that card with Kolaghan's Command, and the fact that it gives Grixis new angles to fight Sneak and Show, Eldrazi, MUD, Stoneblade decks and Steel Stompy, as well as decks with toughness < 2 with, Paladin might be our new pally.
Just a note on Pally, that would give us up to 9 creatures with first strike (4 TGoT, 3 Crusader, 2 Pally) against Eldrazi, a not irrelevant way to wall them off until we get equipment in play.
I'm still not convinced that RiP isn't a solid sideboard decision versus Grixis.
In any case, I would not despair.
EDIT:
If the Tier 1 is kind of like the DTB list here, then yeah, iatee seems right in his estimate below.
DnT is really good against tier 2 decks right now and pretty bad against tier 1 decks, which means it's gonna crush locals and do fine in leagues, but it's gonna struggle at larger competitive events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajomir
Ha! Not my locals. :cry: Freakin Paul Lynch, Matthew Vook, and several other Mid-Atlantic Legacy staple players show up to our Legacy night with greater or lesser regularity. I've been getting pasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Which would suggest a more extreme approach on D&T (try out different builds, different and unusual cards...), no?Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
I mean, surely we would want our deck to be at least even against Tier 1 decks and then the matchups vs tier 1 decks would be "solely" skill-dependent.
Well, if you have read my posts on the last 5 pages, I am clearly all for trying out and working through new things. I'm on board in WW with Lightcaster and Paladin en-Vec, of all the nonsense. I salute Medea_ for trying out Chalice. I'm a fan of going WR again just to do the grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by potentia
I agree that that has to be done, but there is another level at which our problem isn't any of that. The problem is that we are a fair, non-U creature deck that relies on the Stoneforge package to close out games. That is both our strength and our weakness. Many of us have tried to find ways to replace the SFM package, but in the model of DnT it isn't something easily done because it is the source of our ability to close games in 1-3 turns. Without it, D&T takes too long relative to being a soft lock deck. If we were a hard prison deck with the ability to really lock people out of the game, we could eschew the SFM package, but we can't.
I'm not suggesting we don't try to innovate, but if you think that innovating and getting outside the box hasn't been the centerpiece of discussions on this list since before the DRS ban, then go back and look it over. I'm open to the idea that we missed something.