Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Treasure Cruise breaks a primary system in the game, the rate at which the two players draw cards. That's why it should be banned.
At the risk of stating the obvious: many Legacy staples (Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, Shardless Agent into Ancestral Vision, several others we could mention) used to do just that for years, and very efficiently. Drawing one card per turn, or being in topdeck mode, are closer to being the exception than the rule in Legacy. It's really not a matter of TC breaking some part of the 'normal' flow of the game, after all we're talking about the format with Show and Tell and Reanimate and TNN.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DLifshitz
At the risk of stating the obvious: many Legacy staples (Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, Shardless Agent into Ancestral Vision, several others we could mention) used to do just that for years, and very efficiently. Drawing one card per turn, or being in topdeck mode, are closer to being the exception than the rule in Legacy. It's really not a matter of TC breaking some part of the 'normal' flow of the game, after all we're talking about the format with Show and Tell and Reanimate and TNN.
All of those are either far more conditional than TC, more costly to use or can be removed before they've done most of their damage. TC casts turn 3 or 4 for :u: and you can usually play the cards you get that turn. Card draw wins games more than any other factor than random chance and TC is a mitigator in the chance sweepstakes because it lets you acquire 3 cards at once for very little investment.
There's a pretty good argument that nothing in Legacy should allow you to draw 3 cards at once and also play those cards the same turn. Harmonize is not broken because it costs you a turn to go +2 cards. TC and Brainstorm (and Standstill in certain lists) are clearly broken because they let you draw 3 cards and often play them right away.
Ancestral Vision is probably broken as well but it is conditional enough that it's not clear this is the case. Suspending Ancestral Vision requires you to make an investment of a card for an advantage down the road and the opponent knows it is coming and can both Stifle and counter the vision when it resolves. Shardless Agent makes Ancestral Vision a bit better but it also effectively costs 3 to cast in that situation and only during your main phase so the ability to exploit the wealth in cards immediately is lessened.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teveshszat
Ah yes. I expected insults like this because you display your lack of arguments with it. I, from my point of view, am more the logical type which shoudl explain why I prefer mathamatical facts above feelings from persons.
Nope I also can place a Ki in front of you to play against you. This maybe will be easier for you because this is not an game with complete information but a computer can also play this game.
No because than you are lacking of threats and the cantrips canīt win you the game because you missed a basic deckbuilding rule.
And there is the word i love potential. All the cards have the POTENTIAL to win you the game. All cantrips increase the chance that you can make use of this potential to win the game so again cantrips are the factor which makes the difference between a deck with and without them.
And why should I do this because you see Iam not wrong and different persons also tried to explain it to you. All I try is to show you why the blue shell is so dominant as now and why banning Brainstorm or and Ponder is not the solution.
I belief all of this and even more. I mean I play a game were Iam a great Planeswalker who has godlike powers If I would
not believe that such thing could exsist I would not play this game.
But this doesnīt mean that I donīt know effects of cards and yes while the fetch effect isnīt that great it is there.
So you are going to continue to restate your initial belief yet again. That's helpful for the beginning part of a discussion, and you really are good at that part. But typically a discussion then moves on to point, counterpoint, consideration, etc. See, the rest of us are responding to the points made by others. But you don't really do it that way, huh? You are apparently misunderstanding the intricacies involved with the counterarguments made and then simply gainsaying. My 5-year old argues like that - and for the same reason. When you find yourself ready to move beyond the first stage of a discussion, by all means let's continue this one.
Many, many times before you I have encountered folks who sign up to this message board and right away think they know more those of us who have actually experienced these things and have had this discussion several times before. See, I have argued both along with and against FoolofaTook, Tao, Barook, etc. But even when we disagree, they tend to have the ability to respond to input from others. It makes for a more useful conversation than what we are experiencing here with you. I suspect that the idiomatic phrases of English are actually contributing to your difficulties, and I do not mean to confuse you. Whatever the case, I can wait until you figure it out or get bored trying to be louder than everyone else. Until then, prattle on.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teveshszat
Quote:
It's the amazing level of the color fixing or synergy with Brainstorm that makes the fetchlands worth it, not decreasing land count.
Than why are non blue decks playing fetchlands in the firstplace? Because in general the ability to find the right land you need and the decreasement of the land count is worth 1 lifepoint because you know life is just another resource.
Uh, the answer to your question is right there in my post. The reasons non blue decks are playing fetchlands is because they give you nearly perfect color fixing. I mean, you quoted me in your post, so I'd like to think you read what you were responding to. I say right there "It's the amazing level of the color fixing or synergy with Brainstorm that makes the fetchlands worth it." That right there applies to non-Blue decks. So why the heck are you asking me why non-Blue decks are running fetchlands when I literally answered it in the thing you were responding to? It's right there.
Quote:
I never claimed that the exact percentage is over 50% or so. I said it doubled and yes is a bit exagerted but double mean not over 50 or even over 1% it just says its twice as much as the percentage before.
And a 1% increase is not doubling when the chance normally would be something like 60%.
I will admit I phrased myself poorly, but it's still not doubling. I can understand some level of hyperbole, but there's a huge difference between your claim of it doubling the odds and the actual percentage increase.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
What is a creature-heavy-control deck in your books which can use Clamp as a reliable draw engine aka running Creatures with 1 toughness or the ability to sacrifice them? I can't imagine more than Veteran Explorer to qualify for such a deck.
Talking of it: GSZ + Explorer + Dryad Arbosr + Clamp sounds nuts. Convert every Fetchland into drawing two fresh cards for 1 mana is Hardcore
-Thopter Foundry + SFM would be an/the obvious Clamp deck IMO. (SFM fetches the missing piece. Foundry could sack things like SDT for a free card + dude, equip and get two more cards; turning even minor interactions into an effective Draw 3. If you're concerned about the sword; it becomes a 1+ 2x mana for 2x cards.
-I could imagine some kind of Myr Servitor deck.
-Grim Lavamancer is a decent control card that also clamps fine.
-GB or GR Elves would be good as control (they have good mid-late card drawing and the builds would likely use Arbor as the mid-late game card draw engine)
Also, you know that SotL + Chains decks would exist in such a meta (it's version of DGA, Miracles, or D&T)
Further, I kinda think Miracles would exist fine in that meta on the back of not-caring. It makes me "lol" how good that deck is at just existing through nigh-anything. I don't even get why it went away for a few years.
I still think the Brainstorm/Skullclamp analogy is quite good (with the caveat that I think Cruise or something else are better targets.)
For the sake of how fast this thread bumps; I am on the Mind Twist train
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
There's a pretty good argument that nothing in Legacy should allow you to draw 3 cards at once and also play those cards the same turn.
Meh, I feel that's simply another somewhat arbitrary idea on how Legacy should work. Like you said, Ancestral Vision also lets you draw 3 without spending mana on the turn that you draw them. Thoughtcast, now largely consigned to Modern Affinity, used to enable drawing 2 cards for 1 blue, that was pretty good in its era.
In my very humble opinion, the reason that TC should be banned is not because it breaks some rule or guideline on how the Legacy games should play out. No, it's becasue its qualities (low effective casting cost, synergy with cantrips, immediate effect) have enabled it to warp the format around itself. And even I realize that this is not decisively strong argument, because what constitutes a warped format is a matter of opinion. Also people are clearly adapting, or at least trying to adapt, to the new, very blue-heavy meta. But I believe that the kind of adaptation we're seeing (maindecking REB, Carpet of Flowers, Chains, Choke) is not the kind of adaptation that the format should foster.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Also, you know that SotL + Chains decks would exist in such a meta (it's version of DGA, Miracles, or D&T)
Hard to say if the deck would be still viable in a Skullclamp meta, but D&T would definitely run Skullclamp, simply due the high creature count and the numbers of X/1s it runs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DLifshitz
In my very humble opinion, the reason that TC should be banned is not because it breaks some rule or guideline on how the Legacy games should play out. No, it's becasue its qualities (low effective casting cost, synergy with cantrips, immediate effect) have enabled it to warp the format around itself. And even I realize that this is not decisively strong argument, because what constitutes a warped format is a matter of opinion. Also people are clearly adapting, or at least trying to adapt, to the new, very blue-heavy meta. But I believe that the kind of adaptation we're seeing (maindecking REB, Carpet of Flowers, Chains, Choke) is not the kind of adaptation that the format should foster.
Even if they only banned TC, I doubt the effect would last long and we'd be right back at 70+% blue meta representation. Blue was already good before TC and future prints of dumb shit only nurtures it further compared to other colors.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Skullclamp + Young Pyromancer. Hell no!
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Finn
So you are going to continue to restate your initial belief yet again. That's helpful for the beginning part of a discussion, and you really are good at that part. But typically a discussion then moves on to point, counterpoint, consideration, etc. See, the rest of us are responding to the points made by others. But you don't really do it that way, huh? You are apparently misunderstanding the intricacies involved with the counterarguments made and then simply gainsaying. My 5-year old argues like that - and for the same reason. When you find yourself ready to move beyond the first stage of a discussion, by all means let's continue this one.
This would be easier if you actually had any valid argument I can respond too. But a the moment it looks more like that you are resorting to insult and ignorance not even trying to find an argument which I can decontruct anymore.
I am not missunderstanding anything I just donīt want to give in to your areguments because they continue to be false.
If you find any real argumentation again that can hold its ground than please let me know.
Quote:
Lord Seth
It's the amazing level of the color fixing or synergy with Brainstorm that makes the fetchlands worth it."
This is nearly the right thing but instead of only Brainstorm its more that all cantrips can do this in combination with fetchlands.
Quote:
Lord Seth
So why the heck are you asking me why non-Blue decks are running fetchlands when I literally answered it in the thing you were responding to?
Because just to fix the color was not the whole answer why they do it. Despite beeing not that great a lat drawn fetchland is still better tha a drawn land because the fetch effect is still there(despite beeing not that great).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Even if they only banned TC, I doubt the effect would last long and we'd be right back at 70+% blue meta representation. Blue was already good before TC and future prints of dumb shit only nurtures it further compared to other colors.
The way to reduce the blue presence in the meta is to take the cards that foster that heavy presence and ban them. If you ban the blue power spells the cantrip engine will just find non-blue spells to replace them. It's the engine that is the problem. That's what needs to be banned. WotC should ban Brainstorm and Ponder at a minimum. Really they should ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise and possibly Standstill as well. It's not clear that a lot of lists would move towards Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and potentially other manlands alongside Standstill in the blue vacuum created if the 3 above were banned but it's a real possibility.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
FoolofaTook
The way to reduce the blue presence in the meta is to take the cards that foster that heavy presence and ban them. If you ban the blue power spells the cantrip engine will just find non-blue spells to replace them.
How can you first argue against banning cantrips and blue powerspells and than post this
Quote:
FoolofaTook
It's the engine that is the problem. That's what needs to be banned. WotC should ban Brainstorm and Ponder at a minimum. Really they should ban Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise and possibly Standstill as well
in the next sentance and agrueing activly against your first point to quit from trying to ban cantrips (Brainstorm and Ponder) and Blue Powerspells( TC and Standstill).
Quote:
FoolofaTook
It's not clear that a lot of lists would move towards Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and potentially other manlands alongside Standstill in the blue vacuum created if the 3 above were banned but it's a real possibility.
This is a possibility. Another one is that again there will be some but not many dominant decks. For numbers I guess 6-8 ad most which will dominate 1 of them shoudl be clearly elves. So your ban would only change the dominant decks and colours but not the numbers let allone the boradness of competitive decks.
The reason is that some decks will be better (more consistenant than others) and will be played more often with a greater degree of sucess. It will not allow you to play old (suboptimal decks) again because not blue is the reason but the more effective cards which got printed in the recent sets.
So Banning blue spells will not help to get a diverse format back. What would really helping is developing new decks and not sticking to the banning crowd but try to adjust your deck to the current meta and try to find way to prevent them from getting their
plan executed. We have so many cards in this format so this should be possible.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
For fucks sake, we are only 13 and a half hours away from the fucking announcement, can you all just agree to give it a rest for the next 14 fucking hours?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
For fucks sake, we are only 13 and a half hours away from the fucking announcement, can you all just agree to give it a rest for the next 14 fucking hours?
Either that, or we start placing bets...
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
For fucks sake, we are only 13 and a half hours away from the fucking announcement, can you all just agree to give it a rest for the next 14 fucking hours?
The announcement won't be until 11am EST tomorrow.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aCatNamedBootsy
The announcement won't be until 11am EST tomorrow.
I have no idea what that means, all I know is it normally happens as the 1800 Monday evening for me and that was what I was basing my math around. I will wake up this afternoon and the announcement will be up, that's how it always works.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I have no idea what that means, all I know is it normally happens as the 1800 Monday evening for me and that was what I was basing my math around. I will wake up this afternoon and the announcement will be up, that's how it always works.
EST= Eastern Standard Time in the U.S.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teveshszat
This is a possibility. Another one is that again there will be some but not many dominant decks. For numbers I guess 6-8 ad most which will dominate 1 of them shoudl be clearly elves. So your ban would only change the dominant decks and colours but not the numbers let allone the boradness of competitive decks.
The reason is that some decks will be better (more consistenant than others) and will be played more often with a greater degree of sucess. It will not allow you to play old (suboptimal decks) again because not blue is the reason but the more effective cards which got printed in the recent sets.
So Banning blue spells will not help to get a diverse format back. What would really helping is developing new decks and not sticking to the banning crowd but try to adjust your deck to the current meta and try to find way to prevent them from getting their
plan executed. We have so many cards in this format so this should be possible.
Here's the problem with your line of argument: Most of the power spells printed 6+ years ago are still power spells. They're still very powerful at achieving the effect that you want to achieve. However, the blue shell has become so good that unless those cards fit smoothly into the blue shell they won't see play. This is because with a few exceptions a vast chunk of the color pie has been reduced to just a few cards that can be played in Legacy effectively. Not because the other cards are weaker but because they don't fit as smoothly into the shell.
As an example: Terminus is a terrible card in a non-blue shell list. Nobody plays it in a non-blue shell list because the inability to accurately predict when it will emerge from your list makes it too random to rely on and it's true casting cost makes it too expensive to cast in Legacy. In a blue shell list Terminus is a wonderful over-powered card. The blue shell helps to find it in the appropriate context and it is a huge power card.
What did the blue shell and Terminus do to Legacy?
Anybody who wants to play control and creature sweepers plays Miracles and Terminus. There's no other good option, with apologies to BUG and it's attempts to use Golgari Charm to control x/1's and Ur Landstill and it's attempts to use little red sweepers to manage x/2 and under swarms. Even Supreme Verdict that costs 4 and cannot be countered almost never sees play in Legacy and that's in the blue shell which can find it fairly effectively. All the 4cc sweepers that were good in the old meta are bad now, and that's not because they couldn't be used effectively in the right shells, it's because Terminus in the blue shell is just much better than them.
For people arguing that the meta has just gotten much faster and that's what invalidated the 4cc sweepers, that's just not how control works. You can always find a way to parry creatures until you get out to the point that you can sweep them. You can't do that with 90% consistency the way that Miracles does but you can do it at a high enough rate that control is very playable even in a fast meta like this one. The problem is that there's no percentage in playing any other type of control than Miracles at this point. The blue shell and Terminus make Miracles the best control list in the format by a wide margin.
Another example: Delver of Secrets is a very strong card because there are so many cheap and very effective cantrips available in Legacy. It would be a good card anyway but the fact that the cards that flip it are Brainstorm and Ponder and Daze and Force of Will among others makes it a very strong card at this point. It's not the super powerful presence that people claim because it is after all just a creature without hexproof but it is very strong in the early game.
What did the blue shell and Delver of Secrets do to legacy?
It invalidated an entire archetype in Zoo. There were other factors involved too (ahem, Terminus) but what is the percentage in trying to play a Wild Nacatl on turn 1 when you could instead be playing a creature who will turn into an evasive 3/2 protected by counterspells? The blue shell itself became more versatile because a blue beater of this type allowed the shell to have greater options in terms of the instants and sorceries that it included. All other blue flyers became secondary options overnight. The blue shell became even more focused on instants and sorceries, the things that non-blue lists have real trouble interacting with.
A third example: Omniscience is a very powerful enchantment with a huge drawback which is the fact that it costs 10 mana to play. It has an effect that nobody can deal with once it hits play. You land Omniscience and you've won the game. The blue shell provides 16 ways to go looking for Omniscience in Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and Gitaxian Probe. It provides a way to cast it on turn 3 in Show and Tell. The casting can easily happen earlier than that given other factors. It provides a way to protect Show and Tell that requires no mana to cast. The overall effect is devastating to any list that is not playing blue and many that do play blue.
This is not Omniscience being too powerful. It's not even Show and Tell being too powerful, although it probably is. It's the blue shell being too good at putting Omniscience and Show and tell together in your hand early enough that the opponent has no outs unless they are playing the blue shell and often no outs even if they are. Remove the most powerful cantrips from the blue shell and the power level of Omniscience declines dramatically. The power level of Show and tell also declines at that point as players are forced to put more win-cons in and still must use inferior cantrips in order to put those win-cons and Show and Tell together. Entire archetypes that do not have counters become more playable once the threat of Show and Tell into something unmanageable declines.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aCatNamedBootsy
The announcement won't be until 11am EST tomorrow.
Is that when they update the site now? I thought that their site was updated at midnight, and that the (un)banning announcement went up at the same time. At least that's what I think it was like last time.
Did they either change the time the site updates, or are they putting the announcement up later than the rest of the new articles?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
FoolofaTook
What did the blue shell and Terminus do to Legacy?
I see your argumentation after this but that Zoo died was not the fault of Terminus or the blue shell. What killed Zoo was the printing of better avasive creatures like delver, which are easier to defend and generate mor threat than Zoo creatures. Terminus was a reacation to the increased speed of the format and for this it is a good card.
Quote:
Anybody who wants to play control and creature sweepers plays Miracles and Terminus.
And were is the problem. This is the case everytime each and everybody who wants to play archtype x will tend to play the best
deck of it and this will lead to all play deck Y. This means changes wil only effect the archtype not the boradness of decks.
Quote:
There's no other good option, with apologies to BUG and it's attempts to use Golgari Charm to control x/1's and Ur Landstill and it's attempts to use little red sweepers to manage x/2 and under swarms. Even Supreme Verdict that costs 4 and cannot be countered almost never sees play in Legacy and that's in the blue shell which can find it fairly effectively. All the 4cc sweepers that were good in the old meta are bad now, and that's not because they couldn't be used effectively in the right shells, it's because Terminus in the blue shell is just much better than them.
Only because no one trys to create one. Yes Terminus is strong and cost efficient but you also can disrupt it with instant hand interaction so maybe this is a way to defend against it.
And Supreme Verdict is played because of the ability to be uncounterbable. Yes most of the time it sticks to SBs but it
is played.
BTW the sweepers are not bad because of Terminus but because of the fact that the meta is faster than before. You just donīt have enough time for them in some cases.
Quote:
Another example: Delver of Secrets is a very strong card because there are so many cheap and very effective cantrips available in Legacy. It would be a good card anyway but the fact that the cards that flip it are Brainstorm and Ponder and Daze and Force of Will among others makes it a very strong card at this point. It's not the super powerful presence that people claim because it is after all just a creature without hexproof but it is very strong in the early game.
Yeah and here you go wrong. What exactly is the problem in the interaction between delver and cantrips. The answer is blue should not have such a cheap beater who also becomes stronger and evasive when tehy play their corespells. So removing him would be the right thing to do. This also would take some of the speed out of the format and maybe enable more of the older decks again.
If you ban 1 cantrip instead like Brainstorm. It will just be replaced and the deck will be as fast as before.
Quote:
It provides a way to cast it on turn 3 in Show and Tell.
Show and tell is not an essential part of the blue shell because it is not played in every blue deck.
Quote:
It provides a way to protect Show and Tell that requires no mana to cast. The overall effect is devastating to any list that is not playing blue and many that do play blue.
Thats not right. You have many ways to interact with SNT and not all of them can be countered. One example could be that you put something ingame which screws his plan like something that removes the entchantment. Also you can play splitsecond cards to destroy it and ofcourse you can counter it with things liek Pyroblast.
So even as non blue player you have options to defend yourself against it.
Quote:
It's the blue shell being too good at putting Omniscience and Show and tell together in your hand early enough that the opponent has no outs unless they are playing the blue shell and often no outs even if they are.
No the blue shell its not too good. It is right their were it should be. And btw you can defend against this. You can play non blue draw effects and Senseiīs or even splash some blue for the good cantrips( This will not make your deck a blue deck). If you donīt believe this than tell me how Maverick have won against blueshell at the SCG or how DNT can win against it.
Quote:
Entire archetypes that do not have counters become more playable once the threat of Show and Tell into something unmanageable declines.
Yeah than why not ban Show and Tell. It was dangerous at any time and will stay a problem as Wotc focuses powerfull creatures over spells at the moment. Banning Sow and Tell could be an option but than I donīt think thats the reason for playing blue because SNT isnīt as present as I has to be to be a reason for not playing without counterspells.
I mean no one stopped playing Zoo because they feared solidartiy combo.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
What did the blue shell and Delver of Secrets do to legacy?
It invalidated an entire archetype in Zoo. There were other factors involved too (ahem, Terminus) but what is the percentage in trying to play a Wild Nacatl on turn 1 when you could instead be playing a creature who will turn into an evasive 3/2 protected by counterspells? The blue shell itself became more versatile because a blue beater of this type allowed the shell to have greater options in terms of the instants and sorceries that it included. All other blue flyers became secondary options overnight. The blue shell became even more focused on instants and sorceries, the things that non-blue lists have real trouble interacting with.
The classic Zoo got mayor hits by Survival + Vengevine and GSZs printing which formed Big Zoo and later Maveick, which was years before Delver/terminus
