Miracle Control

So 4 monastery mentor build is strong vs delvers decks and?

Miracles with clique and venser + karakas is better vs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TarmoX

So 4 monastery mentor build is strong vs delvers decks and?

Miracles with clique and venser + karakas is better vs?

---

.....everything. But you need to make sure you're skilled enough, Legends is much more difficult to pilot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard

.....everything. But you need to make sure you're skilled enough, Legends is much more difficult to pilot

---

surely there are a lot of interactions with these creatures, but what MU's can they help (ok MD clique vs combo) and why?

What are your experiences?

Thanks in advance :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TarmoX

surely there are a lot of interactions with these creatures, but what MU's can they help (ok MD clique vs combo) and why?

What are your experiences?

Thanks in advance :smile:

---

Theres a lot of misinformation being given to you here. The truth is, nothing is really cut and dry. If you want to test out what's better vs what, do exactly that and test it out. Miracles is almost all about stylistic differences rather than matchup analysis and you absolutely just have to get a feel for it yourself. Having someone else to you that x is better than y in some matchups while y is better than z in other matchups will definitely do you more harm than good in the long run, especially if you're still learning the deck. It's not as easy as it seems.

Miracles also requires you to have vast format knowledge; you essentially have to know how each and every other legacy deck plays in order to understand how to navigate miracles around each and every other legacy deck.

Don't deal in absolutes. Legends isn't better vs literally everything. 4Ponder isn't better vs literally everything. These are just people with biases telling you of their personal beliefs and none of this info will ever help you learn or get better at the deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Theres a lot of misinformation being given to you here. The truth is, nothing is really cut and dry. If you want to test out what's better vs what, do exactly that and test it out. Miracles is almost all about stylistic differences rather than matchup analysis and you absolutely just have to get a feel for it yourself. Having someone else to you that x is better than y in some matchups while y is better than z in other matchups will definitely do you more harm than good in the long run, especially if you're still learning the deck. It's not as easy as it seems.

Miracles also requires you to have vast format knowledge; you essentially have to know how each and every other legacy deck plays in order to understand how to navigate miracles around each and every other legacy deck.

Don't deal in absolutes. Legends isn't better vs literally everything. 4Ponder isn't better vs literally everything. These are just people with biases telling you of their personal beliefs and none of this info will ever help you learn or get better at the deck.

---

Im learning the deck and im testing 4 Ponder build with 2 Mentor 2 Snap 3 Jace 1 ETA 2 Predict. Was curious about Legendary Miracles cause i saw is mostly played in USA; is meta there so different or is only playstile???

Thank you for advices :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TarmoX

Im learning the deck and im testing 4 Ponder build with 2 Mentor 2 Snap 3 Jace 1 ETA 2 Predict. Was curious about Legendary Miracles cause i saw is mostly played in USA; is meta there so different or is only playstile???

Thank you for advices :wink:

---

its rarely played, mainly ponder miracles and this version with predict....very few people play the legends version

I am glad someone mentioned RIP HELM combo because I really want to run that, and I am going to. Mill is my favorite bad strategy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard

its rarely played, mainly ponder miracles and this version with predict....very few people play the legends version

---

There's no evidence to support that claim. As far as I know, Dan Musser and other frequent viewers of Joe's stream are obviously the fans of Legend version. Then there're the in-between versions, which has Karakas but not necessarily Cavern/Clique/Venser MD.

The flavor of the archetype is highly customizable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

There's no evidence to support that claim. As far as I know, Dan Musser and other frequent viewers of Joe's stream are obviously the fans of Legend version. Then there're the in-between versions, which has Karakas but not necessarily Cavern/Clique/Venser MD.

The flavor of the archetype is highly customizable.

---

Agreed. You can see people 5-0 leagues with it pretty often. Even as late as today.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/435586#paper

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

There's no evidence to support that claim. As far as I know, Dan Musser and other frequent viewers of Joe's stream are obviously the fans of Legend version. Then there're the in-between versions, which has Karakas but not necessarily Cavern/Clique/Venser MD.

The flavor of the archetype is highly customizable.

---

if you want the evidence, look at all the decks played at the latest GPs, its all predict miracles....yes I know Dan and many others (including myself) watch joe. Karakas without Clique/Venser is there for defense vs. legendary threats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Yes, I'm very well aware, but Predict being a card to build around is a relatively recent thing, and you'll notice large differences between the lists that incorporated Predict now vs the ones of years past. It was a splashable card back then, but now there are builds that are built to abuse it, which is a huge difference.
Refer to this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...racles-happen/
And, specifically, this line: "The rest, as they say, is history. Playing Predict in Miracles or Legacy certainly isn’t new, but making it a focal point of the deck is"
-
Jeez, people are asking about Predict a lot, aren't they? =P.
Please refer to the original theory post about the start of Predictable Miracles here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post921438
Do note that this post was written before the eldrazi menace appeared in Legacy, so obviously a little bit of the info is outdated.

Secondly, this will be a short primer on Predictable Miracles:
What is Predict?

Predict

1U
Instant
Name a card, then target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard. If that card is the named card, you draw two cards. Otherwise, you draw a card.

Why play Predict?
Predict is a true source of Card Advantage. Now, a deck like miracles doesn't seem to really be wanting for an effect like this, but let's take a closer look: Not much in Miracles actually creates card advantage! Virtual card advantage is created by Counterbalance/Top, while cards like Brainstorm and Jace, the Mind Sculptor (ideally, in conjunction with fetch lands) create actual card advantage. Outside of those two scenarios, however, card advantage is difficult to generate. However, Predict allows you to do that, with a little bit of set up.
In the above article by BBD, he refers to it as "Predict is, in many ways, similar to Dig Through Time. It’s like a Dig Through Time where you need to know the top card of your library to cast it for value, and you get two random cards instead of the best of seven."
So it does a pretty cute Dig Through Time Impression, and allows you to compete for card advantage against decks that win by, essentially, outcarding and outtrading you.

When streamlining the deck, we also allow ourselves to do some things exceedingly well:

• Lower amount of clunky cards, by virtue of having an overall lower mana curve.
• Being able to operate on fewer lands than average miracles can
• Being less vulnerable to "soft" countermagic like Daze and Spell Pierce by reducing the overall CMC of the deck
• Lower opportunity cost of getting value off of your spells, by virtue of having your source of card advantage being an 2 mana instant.

Why not play Predict?
Predict has been a splashable effect in Miracles for many years, but it's never been a build around card. In older iterations, it's power was never amplified, and it was simply played as a 1-of for the value of it. However, the differences with these newer iterations of the deck is that we streamline a lot of the deck to be able to make it as efficient as possible. However, there is a cost here: Miracles has always kind of had 2 prevailing schools of thought along the spectrum of Power v. Consistency and by going in one direction, you'll lose value from the other. In this case, the concept of "Predictable Miracles" goes on the extreme along the "consistency" part of this spectrum, so we lose out on some of the power of other builds of the deck. Namely, we are essentially shaving on the 3rd Jace and another flex spot to play the Predicts, and lowering the overall curve of the deck, in most scenarios. We don't have the fancy tricks that Joe Lossett's deck has, even if they are soul-crushingly powerful, nor the trumps of hammering Jaces down on our opponents, since we only tend to play 2, but we do have a different source of card advantage, and a number of matchups go up in value, while a number go down in value for sure.

Strengths and weakness of Predict
Essentially, in playing a "Predictable" variant, you get improved matchups where card advantage is paramount, so matchups such as Shardless BUG, the mirror, etc, and you lose some percentage points in matchups where the consistency of your deck doesn't actually matter as much, so some fringe strategies, Death and Taxes, super fast combo, etc.

Brief look at different Predictable Decks

Marcus Ewaldh's deck from GP Prague:
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Predict
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Spell Snare
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict

This deck incorporated a lot of our early ideas when Eldrazi hit the format. We were running into a problem, in that, when we streamlined the deck, it caused us to become extremely soft to Chalice of the Void, but that wasn't a problem until Eldrazi became a Tier 1 deck. So we decided that we would return to Entreat the Angels and try to utilize that as a card to fight the eldrazi menace and this is pretty close to what we originally arrived at. It retains the power level of stock 4p miracles while also being able to utilize the strengths of Predict fairly well. However, Marcus was not happy with the sideboard of this deck was, as it still has a fair bit of clunky elements to it, making it a bit weaker in the mirror than the builds we'll be looking at below, but he was happy with the power level of the main deck.

Nicolas Tholance's Deck from GP Prague:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Mountain

This list is extremely close to the list that AnziD, myself, and Exallium took to GP Columbus. This was the next evolution that we wanted to try out for fighting the Eldrazi menace, and that was to flex the power of the card Monastery Mentor and just essentially ignore COTV by suiciding our one drops to feed the hungry monk. Mentor kills VERY fast, and allows us to continue utilizing our cantrips and just play normal magic. We all settled on this build because Mentor wasn't a clunky card, you weren't unhappy to draw it in your opening hand (most of the time) and doesn't require a massive mana investment in order to play. This build also allowed us to streamline our approach in mirrors the majority of the time, taking out almost every single "bad" card.

Brian Braun Duin's Deck from GP Columbus:
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
4 Terminus

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Wear/Tear
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

This approach is similar to Nicolas's deck above, but the sideboard is a bit different. It favors powerful effects, like Blood Moon and Staticaster, instead of a "more of the same" approach you'll find in Nicolas's deck. Makes the deck a bit more powerful against more fringe strategies, but lacks a bit of consistency in some percentage.

Wilson Hunter's Deck from GP Columbus:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterbalance
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa

SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

This approach is an even more extreme variant of Predict, cutting Jaces entirely and focusing on the power of Monastery Mentor. (This is also the build that I am currently playing IRL and having a blast with =P). Its strengths , as opposed to the other variants listed above, are all in on the card Monastery Mentor, flexing the card's power level to the extreme, and forgoing Jace as a way to catch up from being behind. Wilson and Phillip Braverman are the hosts of the Brainstorm Show Podcast, and you'll find that they explain their entire thought process behind the deck, as well as presenting you with a sideboarding guide of their own here: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/

In Summation
Predict is a very cool card, but the streamlined builds that play the card are definitely not for everyone to be playing. You definitely give up a lot of the power behind the deck, and some deem that the idea of card advantage in a powerful deck like miracles is simply unnecessary, but I definitely disagree with that assessment. It fits my style of play significantly better than traditional 4p miracles ever did, and I don't think I can go back to playing a deck without Predict for a major event. That being said, I'm testing out anything and everything again, even planning on revisiting Legend Miracles in the near future, as there are no major events in my future to prepare for.

If you are well practiced with 4 ponder builds of Miracles, and value the ability to vastly improve the power of your cantrips, I would strongly recommend giving Predictable Miracles a try, but losing that power level can be a bit of a cost.


Sideboarding
In testing for GP Columbus, I developed a sideboarding guide for one of our earlier builds of Predictable Miracles. It's essentially 2-3 cards off of where we ended up for the GP, but a lot of the ideas should still be present here, and I'd be happy to answer any questions as to different card choices, etc. http://imgur.com/a/4bitA

I hope that this short primer on the idea behind Predictable Miracles helps clear up any confusion behind the concept of the deck, and I hope people will continue to test the card. We've done a lot of work on the archetype and I'm extremely happy to see it come to fruition.

Shameless Plug:
I also wrote a report on my experiences at GP Columbus here, if anyone cares for more reading material: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...adness-Series!

---

Thank you a lot for this detailed answer. I am sure I will find a list that is fitting me.
I was going with a list of Philipp since 6 month and liked this classical 4 Ponder variant.
I am sure you will hear more of me in the near future :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard

its rarely played, mainly ponder miracles and this version with predict....very few people play the legends version

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard

if you want the evidence, look at all the decks played at the latest GPs, its all predict miracles....yes I know Dan and many others (including myself) watch joe. Karakas without Clique/Venser is there for defense vs. legendary threats.

---

Your logic is flawed. You said "Rarely Played," latest GPs show performances, not popularity. GP results show highest finish, doesn't show what's popular. You can certainly have plenty of Legend Miracles pilots, more than the predict Miracles pilots, and one group just does not finish higher than the other.

Do I have the evidence? Certainly not, but I'm not the one making claims.

For what it's worth the three people who played the 4 Mentor 2 EE list went 13-1-ID with zero byes and then lost in the top 8, 11-4 with zero byes, and X-1-ID then lost in the top 8 of the Sunday Super Series. Long live BDM! Have a nice afternoon, friends.

So, Finally I had some time for playing miracle and like I said earlier...I had a tournament.
Well, the result is just bad: 2 won, 1 draw and 2 lose (then I dropped), maybe I was a bit unlucky in some matches but I will try to give a quick report.
After waking up at 4.40 am and 3.30 hours of car we finally reach the location...it is pretty hot and we will not have the air conditioner (nice...).
Round 1: Sneak and Show 1-2
I hate this match up, game 1 we have a nice and pretty intense fight on a counterbalance that I win, he has 2 cards in hand...untap, draw, show and tell into omniscience and emrakul (I revealed counterbalance btw).
Game 2 goes for the long, we just play lands and ponders until I manage to resolve a counterbalance...vendilion will win the game some rounds after
Game 3 it was pretty rough...his second lands is boseiju and his third turn he play a show and tell...I reveal vendilion, he reveals omniscience , his hand is: Emrakul, intuition , force ...I have only a pyroblast ...fair enough
Round 2 Lands 1-1
Nothing out of the ordinary...game 1 I sword his big flying monster thing 3 times and counterbalance lock him until jace won the game.
Game 2 I had a good start and managed to stick a counterbalance and 2 blood moon on the field...2 turns later I have 3 counterbalance in hand and no blood moons on the field...never saw a ponder, a sdt ,a predict or a brainstorm
Game 3 I stabilized, exctracted his loam and ticking jace up but it is a draw.
round 3 Bug Delver 2-0
Game 1: He hymm me, I predict, He plays some creatures, I swords his creatures, I entreat for 3, he decay 2 angels, I entreat for 1
Game 2: he hymm me, stick a liliana on the field with some deathrite, I manage to land a jace, he ultimate me and I keep the pyle with lands and sdt, I untap and play the second jace and after that a snapcaster...jace will win in few turns
Round 4 Sneak and Show 2-1
2 sneak and show in the room...
He win game 1 and I win the other two...the only thing that happened is a counter war on the third game over a sneak attack , we had a pretty nice stack: sneak attack<-force<-force<-pyroblast<-fluster ...it resolves but he doesn t have another red mana so I just wear//tear it
Round 5 Miracle 0-2
Game 1 was long and pretty enterteining ...He saw a lot more than me but In some strange way I managed to gain card advantage and a situation where I have a sdt, 5 lands , jace on the field and EE+Sword in hand while he has a 7 or 8 lands ,sdt and 0 cards in hand...then I started to see a lot of white cards and he regains some nice gas. The second game I just give up because the time.
Round 6 drop

A friend just brought Personal Tutor to my attention. Is it a good card in this deck? I feel that the synergy with the Miracle mechanic is good, but since I haven't seen it in a build anywhere on YouTube, I am not sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FNTwin

Round 5 Miracle 0-2
Game 1 was long and pretty enterteining ...He saw a lot more than me but In some strange way I managed to gain card advantage and a situation where I have a sdt, 5 lands , jace on the field and EE+Sword in hand while he has a 7 or 8 lands ,sdt and 0 cards in hand...then I started to see a lot of white cards and he regains some nice gas. The second game I just give up because the time.
Round 6 drop

---

You lost a mirror game when you had Jace and EE in hand (which you should have windmill slamed on 0) on the field and your opponent only had Top and 0 cards in hand? You must have punted somewhere because that's an unbeatable board... Do you remember what you were doing with Jace?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda

A friend just brought Personal Tutor to my attention. Is it a good card in this deck? I feel that the synergy with the Miracle mechanic is good, but since I haven't seen it in a build anywhere on YouTube, I am not sure.

---

Same reason why Enlightened Tutor isn't good. Plus Personal Tutor is a Sorcery, which is even worse.

Getting torn apart by 4c Loam.

Here's my 75 (sorry for the xmage formatting):

NAME:miracles
3 [LEB:300] Tundra
4 [CHK:268] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AVR:20] Entreat the Angels
2 [LEB:302] Volcanic Island
2 [WWK:31] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [ISD:78] Snapcaster Mage
4 [KTK:233] Flooded Strand
4 [ALL:42] Force of Will
1 [ZEN:211] Arid Mesa
4 [ICE:278] Swords to Plowshares
1 [MOR:55] Vendilion Clique
2 [MMQ:69] Counterspell
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
1 [5DN:118] Engineered Explosives
1 [CNS:16] Council's Judgment
4 [MMQ:61] Brainstorm
4 [CSP:31] Counterbalance
4 [AVR:38] Terminus
4 [ZEN:223] Scalding Tarn
2 [EURO:9] Plains
3 [M10:68] Ponder
4 [EURO:7] Island
SB: 2 [DGM:135] Wear // Tear
SB: 1 [C14:5] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [DRK:57] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [CMD:46] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FRF:20] Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 [PLS:116] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [LEG:197] Moat
SB: 1 [FUT:46] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 [MOR:55] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [RTR:18] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [ICE:213] Pyroblast

What I bring in:

2x Wear // Tear
1x Containment Priest
1x Blood Moon
2x Monastery Mentor
1x Moat
1x Vendilion Clique (on the play)
1x Rest in Peace

What I want to cut:

2x Counterbalance
1x Force of Will (on the draw), 2x on the play
2x Terminus
2x Ponder

My rationale for cutting 2 Terminus is that we want to be the aggressors in this MU so we don't want to see Terminus at inopportune times (i.e. when we have Monks). I want to keep 2 CB because that way we can try and prevent PFire from mopping up our dudes, which is a problem I encountered when I tested the MU and cut all 4.

Bringing in Meddling Mage @ Punishing Fire is also not bad. It blank the half of they removal leaving only Abrupt Decay to deal with your dudes and your CB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Getting torn apart by 4c Loam.

Here's my 75 (sorry for the xmage formatting):

NAME:miracles
3 [LEB:300] Tundra
4 [CHK:268] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AVR:20] Entreat the Angels
2 [LEB:302] Volcanic Island
2 [WWK:31] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [ISD:78] Snapcaster Mage
4 [KTK:233] Flooded Strand
4 [ALL:42] Force of Will
1 [ZEN:211] Arid Mesa
4 [ICE:278] Swords to Plowshares
1 [MOR:55] Vendilion Clique
2 [MMQ:69] Counterspell
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
1 [5DN:118] Engineered Explosives
1 [CNS:16] Council's Judgment
4 [MMQ:61] Brainstorm
4 [CSP:31] Counterbalance
4 [AVR:38] Terminus
4 [ZEN:223] Scalding Tarn
2 [EURO:9] Plains
3 [M10:68] Ponder
4 [EURO:7] Island
SB: 2 [DGM:135] Wear // Tear
SB: 1 [C14:5] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [DRK:57] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [CMD:46] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FRF:20] Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 [PLS:116] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [LEG:197] Moat
SB: 1 [FUT:46] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 [MOR:55] Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 [RTR:18] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [ICE:213] Pyroblast

What I bring in:

2x Wear // Tear
1x Containment Priest
1x Blood Moon
2x Monastery Mentor
1x Moat
1x Vendilion Clique (on the play)
1x Rest in Peace

What I want to cut:

2x Counterbalance
1x Force of Will (on the draw), 2x on the play
2x Terminus
2x Ponder

My rationale for cutting 2 Terminus is that we want to be the aggressors in this MU so we don't want to see Terminus at inopportune times (i.e. when we have Monks). I want to keep 2 CB because that way we can try and prevent PFire from mopping up our dudes, which is a problem I encountered when I tested the MU and cut all 4.

---

why are you cutting 2 counter balances? you want them out there as soon as possible to stop the 2 drops loam, confidant, and punishing fire, once you have the 2 drop y ou keep it on top basically tying his hands.