[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

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Originally Posted by jthanatos

Round 2 vs Mujadaddy playing Pox/MBC

This was rough as MWS kept taking dumps on our games, probably took 14 games to get our 3 in.

-Telemin Performance, seriously, that card does bad things to people.

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Telemin was certainly an all-star, letting you run virtual threats at my expense, just like shackles & sower.

I think all those games were decided by the opening hands, though. In many instances, I had great hands and nearly won...until MWS crapped out on us.

The specific matchup of MUC vs Pox is probably 50/50. My particular build, though, is tuned against opponents running threats, which MUC doesn't, so you took it 60/40, which in 14 games was about 8-6 :laugh:

Real counterspells > Counterbalance :wink:

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Originally Posted by jthanatos

Round 1 vs Eldritch Alien playing The Mighty Quinn

Game 1: I keep a hand with Shackles, Force, Think Twice, Rainbow Efreet and some lands. I end up pitching Rainbow to stop an early painter combo. By midgame, I have the board pretty much locked down, but he has a full fist of cards to stop any shenanigans. I dig and dig, but both sowers and the Call are in my last 5 cards. I get decked.

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How exactly did that happen? He had no outs to Academy Ruins other than the 1-2 copies of Grindstone, which you had all the tools to fight (counters and Kegs).

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

How exactly did that happen? He had no outs to Academy Ruins other than the 1-2 copies of Grindstone, which you had all the tools to fight (counters and Kegs).

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To be quite honest, due to a play mistake on my part. I played a second back to basics.

I've gone through the logs of our match again, just to refresh the games in my mind. Telemin Performance was the card that owned me, both games 2 and 3. I remember having to read the card the first time you played it...and my jaw dropped. Without Telemin Performance, I would have had a good shot at taking a 2nd game in the match.

I wasn't prepared for it, it was hard to answer, and it changed how I had to play the remaining games. I'm going to try Telemin Performance in my MUC.

I was surprised you came back in g2. I dropped that lock pretty early in the game, with the protection of 3 Orim's chants to force it through, but you seemed to have the perfect hand to answer it.

You made a deck with very relevant cards for our match, and you played your deck very well. Thanks for the games.

What do you think of maindecking 4 disrupt in place of the 5th-8th draw spell?

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Originally Posted by Tea

What do you think of maindecking 4 disrupt in place of the 5th-8th draw spell?

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I tried that idea briefly, and it just doesn't work well. If you catch an early game cantrip with it, it can help swing tempo for you...but MUC doesn't do much with gained tempo. Also, mid to late game, it is infuriating against most decks to draw as it is useless against most threats they play and can't just replace itself or dig for answers like the rest of our card draw suite can. In the end, it still is best left in the sideboard to bring in for dead cards against combo.

Is there any reason why not to run 4 Wastelands in a control deck such as MUC? I checked most decklists and people run 22-25 Lands, which I believe is too much.

Played a similar deck in Vintage and I was manaflooding a lot even with 22 lands I was playing. :)

Wastelands aren't that exciting in this deck; Back to Basics does what you would want Waste to do and more so.

Even with 24 lands and 4 Impulse, I've found sometimes that hasn't been enough. Brainstorm and Impulse help alleviate this problem in a fetchland version. This deck is very mana hungry and the key spells cost three and 4, and with just Impulse as manipulation it sometimes misses its land drops. Mana flood should rarely be an issue, since you run so many card advantage spells to keep drawing business. Also, Call the Skybreaker is a great way to get rid of excess lands.

I've found 23 to be the perfect amount. Playing 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Spell Snare certainly helps a lot. Making good mulligan decisions is key. A 1-land hand is never good. A 2-land hand can be keepable (if you have AV/Snare/CSpell/Keg - these spells will keep you in the game until you draw into a third land, and 3 is the magic number). A 3-land hand and you're (usually) looking good to win the game.

As important as card advantage is in MUC, I'd rather mull more frequently than draw lands when you want business spells. Once you hit 5-6 lands you don't want to be drawing too many more. Also, in the midgame, if you don't have any draw spells, topdecking three islands in a row can cost you a game. In fact, I've lost more games to mana-flood in MUC than to any other cards. This is probably because the ONLY thing MUC does with mana is play spells (and occasionally activate Morphling), hence, land is usually not good without spells. This may seem like a really stupid statement (and it probably is), but most other decks can do lots of things with their lands beyond just play spells.

That's why I'm trying Sensei's Divining Top in MUC as a secondary "Cantrip" in Fetchland-Versions as a 3 of.
With 3 EE, 3 Shackles and Ruins it makes TfK playable as a 2 of (still testing).

Problem with MUC's draw suite has always been that pure CA either costs you

a) 4 Mana (FoF)
b) time in form of being delayed (AV)
c) too many slots (Accu / Intu / Merchant Scroll)

so TfK fills either the role as an early game filter or as later CA as you can wait until your hand needs improvement increasing the chance of having an artifact ready to discard.

So this is what I'm currently testing in Fetchland-MUC:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 SDT
2 TfK

May look strange, but just try SDT (without CB ;) ) and you will see why it is included even in UWx Landstill.

I've always wanted to build MUC in Legacy but somehow I have always dropped the project out. Now I'm really going to make one (have most of the cards for it) and have several questions regarding to it. And since I'm going on budget, I will run just basics and most likely B2B.

1. Is it worth to sacrifice few slots for CB-Top engine? I know that MUC has other ways to generate CA but I think it is really strong against aggro. It doesn't require much mana to use yet it can totally wreck some decks up. However, I haven't seen many people to run these so I started wondering if it's better to spend those slots for something else? Especially since I won't be running fetches for shuffle effects?

2. Drawing? Is 4x AK + couple of facts yet good or should I run something like AV? I like the fact that AV gives 3 cards for 1 mana but I think it's terrible if you need the cards right away.

3. Win conditions. I am thinking about running Morphling + Meloku or 2 Morphlings. Morphling requires a lot of mana to use but damn I love that guy and couldn't imagine playing MUC without it.

4. Cantrips. I really like Brainstorm since it is 1cc and instant and can be used defensively against hand disruption (and also setting up for CB if running them). But without shuffling effects it feels pretty weak. Is Ponder or Impulse better alternative? I like impulse since it can dig deep and I can dump away the cards I don't need plus it's instant. Or is there anything else that's worth running?

5. Counters and amount of them. I think 4x FoW and Counterspell is auto include, but what's good split between Daze, Spell Snare, Mana Leak etc.? I don't have any Cryptic Commands but maybe could afford getting couple, are they worth it?

They might be pretty stupid questions but since I haven't played MUC in ages and there are lot of new cool cards, I'd love to hear opinions from more experienced MUC players.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I've found 23 to be the perfect amount. Playing 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Spell Snare certainly helps a lot. Making good mulligan decisions is key. A 1-land hand is never good. A 2-land hand can be keepable (if you have AV/Snare/CSpell/Keg - these spells will keep you in the game until you draw into a third land, and 3 is the magic number). A 3-land hand and you're (usually) looking good to win the game.

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I don't think 'making good mulligan decisions' justifies running 23 land or fewer. This is why MUC runs 24-25 land, to lower the risk of mulliganing in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Drizzy

1. Is it worth to sacrifice few slots for CB-Top engine?

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You need to sacrifice more than a few slots if you want to run CB-Top. You have to change the mana curve of the deck. You can run CB-Top, but the deck becomes CounterTop, not MUC anymore.

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2. Drawing? Is 4x AK + couple of facts yet good or should I run something like AV? I like the fact that AV gives 3 cards for 1 mana but I think it's terrible if you need the cards right away.

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Intuition+AK never sees serious play in Legacy anymore, let alone just AK. AV is way better. Every few pages in this thread, people always talk about running TfK, but you never hear from them again about their results, which is probably because those people figure out on their own that TfK isn't worth it.

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3. Win conditions. I am thinking about running Morphling + Meloku or 2 Morphlings. Morphling requires a lot of mana to use but damn I love that guy and couldn't imagine playing MUC without it.

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Morphling is a standard win condition. People don't run Meloku anymore in MUC, probably because it doesn't protect itself any removal other than burn.
In the past, people tried out Call the Skybreaker. I never liked the card because it was sorcery speed, but it's nevertheless powerful in MUC. But it may not be that good anymore, since you see Relic everywhere, and running CtS hinders you from running Relic yourself.

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4. Cantrips. I really like Brainstorm since it is 1cc and instant and can be used defensively against hand disruption (and also setting up for CB if running them). But without shuffling effects it feels pretty weak. Is Ponder or Impulse better alternative? I like impulse since it can dig deep and I can dump away the cards I don't need plus it's instant. Or is there anything else that's worth running?

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I don't like running cantrips myself, since you have to shave off certain 4-ofs to accommodate them. However, you don't really need any more cantrips outside of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Think Twice. Impulse is worse than all of the aforementioned cantrips so you never have to think about running it.

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5. Counters and amount of them. I think 4x FoW and Counterspell is auto include, but what's good split between Daze, Spell Snare, Mana Leak etc.? I don't have any Cryptic Commands but maybe could afford getting couple, are they worth it?

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Daze is counterproductive in MUC, as setting yourself back a land drop is suicide. Spell Snare is amazing. Mana Leak is ok, but I never tested it. You should save your money and not buy Cryptic Command. It's not worth it in MUC. The cantrip and Fog effect are practically irrelevant, especially the Fog effect since you can't capitalize off the tempo the way Faeries does.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

With Chalice, accel to get it out earlier is really needed. I am on the fence on how to go about it. Mox Diamond is definitely stronger of the two, getting me any color I want, not making me get rid of goods, etc. However, it makes me run more lands. This isn't horrible because getting lands is awesome, but it does eat up two slots since with Chrome Mox, I would run 4 Mox and 22 Land. Still needs testing but I am leaning towards Diamond since it makes the mana base a lot more stable.

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How about Ancient Tomb? In a way it's even card advantage, being two lands in one. Unfortunately, it costs life.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

But it may not be that good anymore, since you see Relic everywhere, and running CtS hinders you from running Relic yourself

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Not necessarily, you can retrace Call then respond with blowing up your own Relic. I run Relic (and Crypt because Dredge usually runs Needle) in my sideboard and the two conflicting isn't really a problem. Unless you Fact away a Call, your own Relics won't remove it a large percentage of the time. Also, most decks run Relic sideboard. Are they really going to be siding it in for one card? If they do, just smash them with a 5/5, one of your other two win-conditions, or a creature stolen via Shackles. (Yes, if I was playing Landstill against MUC I would side in Relic, but that's because it cycles whereas Swords to Plowshares does nothing in that mu.)

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I've found 23 to be the perfect amount. Playing 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Spell Snare certainly helps a lot.

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The problem with banking on Ancestral Vision to hit land drops is it doesn't resolve until turn five at the earliest. If you've already missed a land drop of two, the ones you may get from Vision are most likely too late.

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In fact, I've lost more games to mana-flood in MUC than to any other cards. This is probably because the ONLY thing MUC does with mana is play spells (and occasionally activate Morphling), hence, land is usually not good without spells.

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I think it's the opposite, but in a less obvious way. Loosing games to mana screw always aren't always "He Sinkholed and Wastelanded me to oblivion", it's more subtle. I can't count how many times I've played against Counterbalance thresh with either landstill or MUC, and have lost games where I missed a few land drops early, eventually built up a bunch lands, and lost. I was so far behind the lands coming late didn't make a difference. MUC is very, very mana-intensive, with Fact costing 4, Shackles essentially costing 5, and it's win-conditions (which will sometimes need to be cast to be used defensively) all cost at least 6, if you don't want to get annihilated by a single piece of removal.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Morphling is a standard win condition. People don't run Meloku anymore in MUC, probably because it doesn't protect itself any removal other than burn.
In the past, people tried out Call the Skybreaker. I never liked the card because it was sorcery speed, but it's nevertheless powerful in MUC. But it may not be that good anymore, since you see Relic everywhere, and running CtS hinders you from running Relic yourself.

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Morphling may be a standard win condition but I still feel it is not even worth running anymore. Rainbow Efreet is just better overall. It CAN come down a turn earlier if necessary, but basically Morphling and Efreet are coming down at the earliest around the same time (turn 6). Efreet has been much better because it can avoid Wrath of God and Pernicious Deed. Sure Morphling is a 4-turn clock opposed to Efreet's 7-turn (usually 6 because of fetches and otherwise), but the additional vulnerability of Morphling is rarely worth the cost of gaining 2 or 3 turns. I've said that numerous times and I will continue to say it.

Also, Call the Skybreaker is a house! Opposed to Morphling or Rainbow Efreet (or some other win conditions), you don't have to worry about throwing it away to the graveyard in a Fact or Fiction pile. Plus you don't have to worry about it getting COUNTERED. With Morphling or Efreet, an opponent forcing through a counterspell spells game over for your win condition. Because of this, Call the Skybreaker can come along to save the day. With Call the Skybreaker in your deck, you really only need to run 2 win-conditions (unless you count Sower of Temptation or Vedalken Shackles as a win condition) because it is the win condition that will never stop coming. Wrath stops Morphling. Counters stop Efreet and Morphling. They only slow down Call the Skybreaker. Also, almost no one runs Relic of Progenitus main deck, and if your opponent is boarding it in for one card, I think you can feel fairly confident of your ability to win game 2 or 3. Plus, as Shawn said, Call the Skybreaker does not keep you from running your own Relics. But even if you do feel scared of running Call + Relic, you can always just run Tormod's Crypt. I heard that's also pretty decent against most graveyard decks. A lot of decks just can't deal with the inevitability of Call the Skybreaker, and I have found it to be the most amazing win condition MUC has.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

I don't like running cantrips myself, since you have to shave off certain 4-ofs to accommodate them. However, you don't really need any more cantrips outside of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Think Twice. Impulse is worse than all of the aforementioned cantrips so you never have to think about running it.

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That's not a fair statement at all. Impulse is not the worst of those cards. It digs 4-deep and can easily help you find answers at instant-speed. Sometimes those answers ARE lands, but the ability to go four cards down and find your answer make it awesome. Brainstorm is better IF and only IF you are running fetchlands or some sort of shuffle effect. The number of bombs this deck runs is so great that filtering four cards down to find just the right answer is huge. I either run 4x Impulse or 4x Think Twice in my deck as my card draw 5-8 because they are the cheapest and most efficient in a deck with no shuffle effects.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Daze is counterproductive in MUC, as setting yourself back a land drop is suicide. Spell Snare is amazing. Mana Leak is ok, but I never tested it. You should save your money and not buy Cryptic Command. It's not worth it in MUC. The cantrip and Fog effect are practically irrelevant, especially the Fog effect since you can't capitalize off the tempo the way Faeries does.

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Mana Leak is so good. It's nearly always a hard-counter. When it isn't, you will be forcing your opponent to usually tap down non-basics which will open him up for having a Back to Basics thrown down. 1x Cryptic Command is a great silver bullet to have in your deck. The "Fog effect" is NOT irrelevant. Playing against Landstill or Dreadstill, after my opponent activated their Mishra's Factories, I tapped them down and drew a card. Next turn, Back to Basics. Win. It's also great for a counterspell + bounce Counterbalance or counterspell + bounce Humility or just good for tapping down manlands. The cantrip is rarely exciting but since the card is so versatile, it is a necessity to have at least one in the deck.

Aside from all that, I want to know if anyone besides my good friend jthanatos has tested Telemin Performance as a valid sideboard card. I was the first to suggest it in our group of friends. I haven't had a time where I want it in my sideboard but I know it destroys combo decks, really hurts landstill, and is amazing in general against a lot of Legacy decks seeing as so few creatures are run. Any thoughts on the card?

Another nice finish (7° out of 60) by soulles with his MUC deck here.

Nice list as usual, only you cut Powder Keg for Divert? Did it worked good?

If you got time to write a report too will be nice, your version of MUC seems the best actually, results speaks by itself.

Why isn't this deck playing Fetchlands? You got too many islands which will be useless lategame, while Fetchlands will help out thining the deck lategame and add shuffle effects as well. :)

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Originally Posted by DeMarki

Why isn't this deck playing Fetchlands? You got too many islands which will be useless lategame, while Fetchlands will help out thining the deck lategame and add shuffle effects as well. :)

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#1 Because Fetchlands thinning ability is not good at all. There is an analysis on this somewhere.
#2 Some MUC decks don't play Brainstorm. So shuffle effects are not needed.
#3 MUC doesn't want Moon effects to matter.
#4 Refer to #1. People need to get this through their heads.
#5 Getting a land stifled and losing a turn sucks. And if you counter that stifle, then you just wasted a counter. (had you been playing island this could have been avoided)
#6 Dealing damage to yourself is not good when playing control decks, unless for a good cause, which #1-#5 proves its not.

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Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin

#1 Because Fetchlands thinning ability is not good at all. There is an analysis on this somewhere.
#2 Some MUC decks don't play Brainstorm. So shuffle effects are not needed.

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Deck thinning might not be noticable early to midgame but drawing 1-2 extra spells lategame instead of lands it's worth the damage taken.

I play this version of the deck with Impulse, putting spells I might need on the bottom of my library, thus I believe a shuffle effect is always welcome.

Playing Impulse is another reason fetches shouldn't be played.
When playing Impulse, you'll probably take the card best for the current situation. If we assume the 4 cards you saw are no better in quality than the rest of the deck (which is statistically probable), the 3 you'll be putting on the bottom will average a lower quality than the rest of your deck (since you chose the best). This creates a slightly higher quality of topdecks for the rest of the game, which you'll be undoing by fetching.

Chubby has made a good point about why they shouldn't be played here.
The math concerning fetchlands and deckthinning can be found here.