[DTW] Bant Survival

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Originally Posted by Slayer

@K1LO, I have been using Bant Survival for a few months now (The best Legacy deck I'v used) & Wonder has been great, sometimes even playing it out ( When things have gone realy bad) to get the kill with 2 or 3 Exalted men on the board.

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I used to play it too before Retainers/Iona became popular, but with that change Wonder feeled to be pretty much redundant. But, as I´m siding out Retainers/Iona more and more often, because it is either too slow or too fragile against some matchups, I´m now at the point of evaluating Wonder new. I should mention that I´m noting every game in a small book and therefore exactly know that it would have won me more games (against Dredge, Merfolk, Aggro Loam, ...) or at least finished the game much faster, without any sort of overkill. From my experience with the deck, most opponents are getting better and better prepared to fight Iona and also therefore I´m definately giving Wonder a chance again, as I´d rather side it out than playing without it anymore. On the other hand it doesn´t do much without Survival online, but the last time Trygon Predator has been usefull in any kind, exept as Force-fodder^^, is about 4 months ago.


Greetz, K1LO

Hey guys, I need some help. I'm going to participate on a tourney the next week. I do not have any ideas what the meta looks like, and I have the option to play either Bant Survival or Canadian Thresh. Can some of those, who have more experience with the deck, give me some pros or cons why I should or should not pick up Bant Survival for this tourney? Also, what cards would you put in the SB? For reference, my list:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Spell Snare
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Savannah
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Forest
2 Ponder
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Thanks. By the way the tourney is a monthly event with 70 participants each time, so I expect to face good and highly developed decks.

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Originally Posted by spider900

3 Survival of the Fittest
1 Wonder

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My initial thoughts, why only 3 survival? Specially when you have wonder maindeck. Their doesn't seem to be any other method to get wonder in the yard. I would up the count to 4 by cutting something. My first thought is to cut wonder in favor of a 4th survival. As for sideboard I've seen a lot of people run sideboards similar to this:

3 Path to Exile (also I have seen a couple of jitte's)
2 Krosan Grip (3 maindeck art/ench hate so 2 is ok)
2 Gattock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Llanawan, Cephalid Emperess
5 Additional slots, depending on what is or isn't in the main they can be: Kira, Great Glassspinner for Zoo, Genesis for slow decks like Landstill, Sower of Temptation is nice, more yard hate in the form of Tormod's Crypt, I have seen some lists run Engineered Explosives, and various additional combo hate like Spell Pierce, Meddling Mage, or Cannonists.

What do you guys think of the new Eldrazi spell replacing Iona? It serves the same purpose of dodging removal, however, if you attack once with it, you pretty much win the game.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1269384672

It would be a little harder to do, you'd have to have Retainers on board before you search so you can place the shuffle trigger on the stack and then respond by reanimating him.

Not sure if its worth it but probably worth testing.

Ah some good news, we have a possible new devastating Loyal Retainers target : Emrakul, the Aeons Torn!

Hoorah! And setting up the combo can't be intervened by with creature removal as with Iona.

- Make sure you have survival in play, 4 mana, loyal retainers and Emrakul in hand
- Cast loyal retainers, pass priority, (resolves)
- Discard Emrakul to survival, shuffle trigger goes on the stack, do not pass priority
- Sack loyal retainers, pass priority
- Get Emrakul into play
- Watch your opponent crumble in fear to the meanest fattie in fattie history

EDIT : Damnit CUB3X! :) One minute earlier

Ok next. This is totally danger of cool things.

Iona also can't be stopped by creature removal. Just for the sake of rules clarification..
I storngly believe Iona is still a much better combo as she just wants you to have a single creature in hand. Bonus fact: she's aeons better against combo.

Against Combo: You play a 15/15 fattie and get an extra turn (so you will have at least 3 mana becasue you allready played Retainer), you attack them for 15 (or 16 if you played a Exalted-critter this turn) and destroy all his permanents.
Mhhh...I think that's pretty much game.
Postboard you just play a Teeg or Meddling Mage in your extraturn and they have to go off without permanents and with 1 hatebear on the board.

Com'on Iona can't do it better, because Iona can be bounced/removed.

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Originally Posted by Windux

Against Combo: You play a 15/15 fattie and get an extra turn (so you will have at least 3 mana becasue you allready played Retainer), you attack them for 15 (or 16 if you played a Exalted-critter this turn) and destroy all his permanents.
Mhhh...I think that's pretty much game.
Postboard you just play a Teeg or Meddling Mage in your extraturn and they have to go off without permanents and with 1 hatebear on the board.

Com'on Iona can't do it better, because Iona can be bounced/removed.

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You aren't casting it so you won't get an extra turn. You also have to jump through more hoops to get it into play.

Clearly weaker against combo, but this seems stronger against the rest of the field. Does the Retainer-in-reponse-to-shuffle trick really work?

Yes it does because unlike its Darksteel Colossus counter-part it isn't a replacement effect. And yes Iona is better against combo. Thats why Iona gets moved to sideboard or you can SB in Emrakul against non combo.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

Ok next. This is totally danger of cool things.

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Quoted for truth! Iona is strictly superior in Survival-based decks, as it comes down much faster and almost does the same job if not a better one. Also, not to forget that Iona can be hardcast (happened to me twice^^) with 18-19 lands + 4 Hierarch and that no creature-removal can be used to stop Retainers bringing Iona, at least if you´re doing it right^^.


Greetz, K1LO

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Originally Posted by K1LO

and that no creature-removal can be used to stop Retainers bringing Iona, at least if you´re doing it right^^.

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Creature removal does not stop bringing in Emrakul either. That said, his home is not in this style of bant survival.

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Originally Posted by conboy31

Creature removal does not stop bringing in Emrakul either. That said, his home is not in this style of bant survival.

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Sorry, you´re right^^! Actually, the "discard a creature" is part of Survivals activation-cost and therefore creature-removal doesn´t stop Retainers from bringing Emakrul. At least I´m feeling awkward for this, I should have known it better.


Greetz, K1LO

It's also worth noting that it costs one more mana and one more creature card or turn to get Emrakul into play. While he's probably better against most of the field, I don't think he's so much better that it's worth the extra costs.

While Emrakul is a better creature than Iona against non-combo decks, I don't like some facts:

- Needs one more mana/creature/turn: Very relevant as you often win games thanks to fast Iona, specially against Zoo or combo. That extra turn may be lethal.
- Needs four mana. You can cast Iona with 3 mana. Sometimes you don't draw 4 lands in the first 4-5 turns. Sometimes you face mean opponents playing Stifle and/or Wasteland.
- You can't discard it to get Loyal Retainers: VERY relevant when low on mana and/or need to drop Iona fast.
- It's harder to play around Qasali Pridemage, Maelstrom Pulse and other cards. Very often I win games against these cards by discarding a random creature to Squee (optional), to Iona, to Loyal Retainers in response to their attempt to destroy your Survival. I mean, you don't need Survival in play to win.

Really guys, this guy is just weaker than Iona, believe it or not. Whenever a new set comes out people will be looking for potential cards to break but once the dust settles only very few will actually see play. I will play Iona instead of this guy ANY day. Iona is SOO much faster, mostly due to the fact that she doesnt require another creature in your hand.

I will, however, play the FUCK out of that guy in my EDH Survival deck!

Yeah Emrakul does sound pretty sexy, but I think Iona is better overall just because she's easier/faster to get out.

One nice thing about Emrakul though is that it shuffles your Retainers back into your library, so you can reuse it!

Guys, as of now im actually doubting the power of the iona/retainer package. Since imo the problem matchups are right now game 1: Merfolk and perhaps something else. Iona isn't that effective at all.

Did anybody else got the feeling that the games he won could just as simply be won by just outrunning them with survival advantage?

If not people please convince me im terribly wrong. I will try a new list without iona and see how it goes.