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So what? It doesn't look better than Grudge, because in my experience, when you're fighting Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb, the best anti-hate is actually Tireless Tribe, which will eventually help you dredge up the Grudge to force them to pop crypt and then leave the way clear for you to go off.. You'll almost never have the sabotage to counter crypt/relic on the way down.
To add to that: dredge pilots are usually on the draw on game 2 which makes that card is less effective if they play a first turn relic/crypt/spellbomb (since you can still bounce the hate using that spell). The only thing good about that card is that you can use cephalid coliseum to cast it but I think I'll stick with chain of vapor when it comes to bouncing permanents.
@Shaboogs: How do you usually play around opponent who drops turn 1 relic backed up by countermagic? (eg:Merfolk, counterTop, etc).
Keep hands with lots of lands. Several discard outlets help too. You have to find the Grudge for the Relic as well as to fight through the counters. Cabal Therapy is a great card to have at hand. You know, the more counter maguc and grave hate they have, the less pressure they can put on you. So maybe you can win in the end. Still it's going to be hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadakiyo
Firestorm is your friend because it forces them to pop Relic.
I usually go for what Izor and Ozymandias suggested. It really depends on my opening but I try to resolve a discard outlet when facing relic by baiting them with multiple discard outlets or blind cabal therapy on force of will. Once your outlet hits the board, it's easier to get around relic's first ability since you can discard several cards in the yard to control what you exile once the first ability is activated. From there you can just dredge once per turn and wait for them to blow up relic or until you see ancient grudge in the yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadakiyo
thanks, I will try that strategy on the next tourney
That Sphinx that allows you to draw two everytime your opponent draws a card. Would that be a good DR target for Dredge? It would allow you to Dredge twice on your opponents turn, or even allow you to draw some cards.
Not a very good target because if we are able to resolve DR, we should be able to win now or at least next turn. Sphinx of Lost Truths is still better than the new one because it draws 3 when it comes into play and doesn't have to wait until next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parax
Have there been any variations that use Vengevine? A sort of alternative win in case Bridges get removed?
I have some questions related to one of the usually played Dread Return targets.
I do understand why Ancestor's Chosen is considered a strong choice, that's why I'm playing it in my sb. Sometimes, though, I get my graveyard wiped out, so I only get about 10/15 life. I mean, it is still an important swing in my favor. Alas, the decks against which Chosen is told to perform the best are capable of packing a heavy duty punch against my life total. With the sole exception of TES and Burn, which are something like the embodiment of a set amount of damage per time, Zoo and Goblin might tap enough creatures to end the game with my loss. Isn't Caldera Hellion a better call against those archetypes (generally against tribal and the mirror)? Sadly, neither can replace the other, since they have unique effects; but I think they're a complementary part of the sb. Is Darkblast enough to take care of Tribal decks/the mirror or is it recommended to play a singleton Hellion in a very aggro environment? Also, while Survival was popular, I used to play 2x Ray of Revelation. Now, is it a reasonable thing to replace 1x Ray with Caldera Hellion, seeing I'd virtually have 6 slots total against enchantments (4x Nature's Claim + 1x Ray of Revelation + 1x Angel of Despair - every slot dedicated to a particular kind of card)?
P.S. - Before the argument is taken into consideration, I really dislike Firestorm.
narcs and ichorids aren't castQuote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
As you said, even if someone played Hellion, one would sill have to play the Chosen. His effect is just so good for this deck, it's not even fair against Aggro (especially without Firestorms btw). So a replacement is out of question. Then, there is a really big flaw in Hellion, which makes it unplayable: It kills each single creature in your own deck, but practically never kills the best and most played creature in the whole format, namely Tarmogoyf. That beast will mostly be 5/6 or bigger against us and it will easily blow you out after you resolve Hellion I imagine. Against Goblins and Merfolk, which don't have Goyfs, it's not as terrible but still not worth the slot (and the loss of all your Tokens !).Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
Oh, and Hellion nukes our own Bridges, which isn't too awesome either.
May I ask why you consider the Hellion, but dislike the strictly better and overall awesome Firestorm?
Veggies are completely unplayable in Dredge. As say no to scurvy said, we don't cast most creatures we get into play. I have difficulties remembering a single time when I've ever cast more than one creature during one turn. Aside from that, they're dead cards in the opening hand and we don't really have any slots left for anything in such a tight main list.Quote:
Have there been any variations that use Vengevine? A sort of alternative win in case Bridges get removed?
That's true. Ichorid never actually casts it's creatures now that I think about it: they are either reanimated or put onto the battlefield.
It kills almost any creature on the field and can outclass in combat the few survivors, including Tarmogoyf. If I kill my creatures with Hellion I still get some zombies before Bridges are removed. Zombie tokens which would die anyway are devoured, thus making Hellion stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I consider it to be a Golgari Grave-Troll plus a free Wrath of God effect.
P.S - Actually Firestorm nukes Bridges, too.
Hellion doesn't cost mana, doesn't need a certain amount of cards in my hand and leaves a huge body on the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I think I could promise you 10 dollars if you ever manage to DR a Hellion that kills Tarmogoyf. That's impossible. No Goyf will ever be 2/3 only if you have access to both Hellion and DR in your graveyard. Apart from that it doesn't kill any Rhox War Monks and practically never any KotRs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
Hellion will never get as big as Grave Troll, except if you consistently devour 15 Creatures, which I doubt. And it doesn't regenerate. And Firespout is not Wrath of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
Yes. But Firestorm is simply not a card we use after we milled 4 Bridges into our graveyard, but before we even go off. You'll rarely have Firestorms in your hand after you go off anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
I think you got something wrong. Firestorm costs one mana as well as some cards in your hand, which you will usually want to bin anyway. Hellion is NOT free. It costs the following (I mean you need to have all that in order to resolve Hellion):Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
- a Discard Outlet
- Mana to play the Discard outlet
- a bunch of Dredgers
- Hellion in your graveyard which either takes 5 or more turns, or of course you need also:
- a Draw spell
- Mana to cast the draw spell
- and you need DR in your graveyard
- plus at least 3 creatures to pay for DR
So what's easier to resolve? I guess it's obvious. And the body that Hellion leaves really pales in front of Grave Trolls.
But anyway, it's not my point toget anyone to play cards they don't like. I just say that Hellion is just so much worse than Firestorm. So especially for someone who dislikes Firestorm, the Hellion shouldn't be the right choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
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Originally Posted by Digital Devil
I know Firespout isn't Wrath of God, but unless a Merfolk/Goblin/Elves player has 3+ lords on the battlefield by the time I DR Hellion, it virtually is. When I said "it's GGT + poor men's Wrath of God" I wanted to say "It's a big creature (obviously not as big as GGT, as in my experience it's usually a 7/7, in comparison with huge 18/18 Trolls) which still puts me in a favorable board position by clearing away blockers and/or troublesome creatures". Of course if I have enough creatures to win I won't DR Hellion, and I also know sometimes it's win more, but I only have 1 free slot in my sideboard and can't play with 18 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
G2 I want to keep in my hand as much cards as possible. The only cards I'd like to toss in are redundant Lands and DR + targets, since redundant dredgers are useful to fight hate, draw spells are obviously insane and 1cc discard outlets are simply too strong. To go off with Firestorm, you still have to play lands and cast a draw spell thereafter. And since Firestorm doesn't win the game by itself, you still have to DR something in order to win. It's also way easier to start the game with one of my 8 permanent discard outlets than with one of my 4 Firestorms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
For the effect of Caldera Hellion , I would rather use Thunder Dragon. Nukes the board for three , 5/5 with flying to fight opponent when the battlefield is clogged.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...2544&type=card
C'on guys! Are you beeing serious in the last posts??
Haha yeah, what are we discussing now? All these DR target suggestions are coming from somebody who hasn't played the deck. That's all I can conclude.
Anyways, on the topic of fighting Relic, there are some flaws in your plan to just discard multiple cards and fight through it. Okay, it's going to be G2 and you'll be on the draw, most likely. If they have Relic it's coming down their T1 and ideally, you'll be following up by dropping a Tribe or PImp before passing back. Now they have untapped, and, if they're smart, they'll keep a mana open the rest of the game to pop the Relic whenever necessary. If you discard one dredger in your upkeep, they can tap the Relic. If you discard a second dredger still in your upkeep, then they can pay use Relic's second ability. If they're smart, they won't ever let you dredge. And mathematically, you're not going to have Land + Discard Outlet + 3 dredgers in your top 8 cards (since you're drawing).
So what do we do here? Just hope we have some Careful Studys to dig for extra dredgers?
Edit: I'm being dumb, we just discard some erroneous card in response to the Relic tap. Nevermind, guys. But still, we need 2 dredgers, and what is the math behind having 2 dredgers + rainbow land + PImp/Tribe?