[Deck] The Rock

I don't find Edicts super-stellar past turn 3 against Goblins, since they'll just sac some useless dude they don't need, like a token or a used Matron. Firespout would be super-sweet tech, I have to admit, even though it's so unstable.

But, I think Ghastly could be good, or Path as well. Only problem with Path is you're giving the tempo deck...well...tempo in terms of lands drops.

EE could also work, albeit slowly. Obviously the key play is to just play Elish Norn and profit, but I'm not sure about step 2.

-Matt

Path gives them a land, but that's probably better than eating 9 points of a hasty Piledriver that you didn't see coming. Also, Path matters in other matchups whereas Ghastly Demise is cold against Tombstalker and Dark Confidant, two creatures that are seeing a resurgence in play.

You could be like the many Team America decks running Go for the Throat... though that card is really bad due to a deck calld affinity. I've always been an advocate of Ghastly Demise though Arsenal has a good point. So many people are now playing Tombstalker and Dark Confidant again, it may be best to run with Path to Exile though I don't really like the card. Personally I'm a fan of engineered plague and tariff. Tariff gets tombstalker and helps agains show and tell and NO decks.

There's always Snuff Out, too. Its primary disadvantage is also its primary advantage--if you're running Confidant, however, it probably won't work out.

@Aggro steve


The problem of rock with zoo is the sheer speed then the versatility of burn... if your using shock lands.. the worse the match up is going to get.... Match up is already slightly in zoo\s favor because of burn... And if you use shocklands.. its just going to get worse...

I would recommend more spot removal however... Whats important for us is that we avoid all those early damage so that we can live through the burn later on....

then my question would be what would be the best thing to cut?, probalbly the utility darkblast, but what else?,.... or should i just cut the krosan grips in the sideboard? for path or go for the throat?
i would probably take path over go for the throat because there are a few affinity players here

@ f|i[p]

how would you suggest as boardplan against zoo with my sideboard (last post from previous page, but with path to exile instead of krosan grip), but specially considering the shockland think

would leyline of sanctity be a nice thing against zoo, or would it be just blown a way by quasali?

Leyline of Sanctity fucks Zoo's shit up, if you don't mine my saying. They won't always have Qasali, plus it means they won't Qasali something else, like Deed or attack with Qasali.

-Matt

did not yet think it that way, intresting, kinda think i have to get a playset and test,... specially cause it helps allmost the same matchups teeg would help against and some problematic ones like burn, and as you say zoo as well...

now i was just wondering what you would board out for the leylines, and would you mulligan aggressively to get them against zoo?, or are they something like "haha, you can't hit me anymore" on turn 4, if not allready to late?

btw. i do not mind your saying at all^^, i think as long as it is completely honest anyone should spell their freaking first thoughts on every matter^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Leyline of Sanctity fucks Zoo's shit up, if you don't mine my saying. They won't always have Qasali, plus it means they won't Qasali something else, like Deed or attack with Qasali.

-Matt

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I don't know. Sure they can't bolt or fireblast your face but they should have plenty of creatures to hit you with. And they can save that removal for your creatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Leyline of Sanctity fucks Zoo's shit up, if you don't mine my saying. They won't always have Qasali, plus it means they won't Qasali something else, like Deed or attack with Qasali.

-Matt

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Typically zoo is boarding out some of their burn for more removal, which is the bigger issue. Leyline is really only good vs fireblast. The issue with the matchup is that they put pressure on much faster than you, they always win the goyf war, and all of their removal goes straight for knight. Leyline fixes non of these issues. Jitte is a much better board option for the zoo matchup because it allows you to deal with their steppe lynxs and lavamncers easily, allows you to win goyf wars, and the life gain can dramatically slow them down. Jitte also helps shore up the goblins matchup which can be shaky at times.

I'm not saying Leyline has the same value against Zoo as it does Burn, but having the ability to at least not take it all to the face can help.

What "more removal" are they bringing in? Maybe it's just my local Zoo players aren't playing really traditional builds, but there's not much to bring in regarding their cases. Jitte is better, I agree, but it's still not great. They can still remove all your guys without putting Jitte to good use.

The Goblins matchup is helped by Jitte, but again, it's slow. I had Jitte online in a Goblins game and it went well until I got Warren Weirding'd and Perished out of the game. That wasn't so hot.

The games I've won with Rock against Zoo usually involve me blowing up their hand, removing their creatures, and then trying to keep large creatures on board without dying to Price of Progress or Paths. It's not as easy as can be. Also, Having Confidant bolted really sucks. Let's put it this way: I don't like seeing Zoo or Goblins.

-Matt

since the goblin and zoo matchups are the most discussed on the previous pages, i am suggesting to keep it up, but maybe we should talk about options, or point out a list of cards that have been tested with success against both archetypes......

engineered plague obviosly is the best option against goblins, but it is completely cold to zoo, thus i do not want to spend 3-4 sideboard slots to it

the problem with jitte has allready been stated, and even if jitte is good, both deck we have problems with, have enough ways to deny a creature connecting with it

other options that have been pointed out were addictional targeted removal, but most of the time.... specially against goblins that won't be enough

the thing is that none of these 3 things help enough in these two matchups to assure victory over them.... so my question would be if anyone knows some techs to make zoo and goblins fail to our deck

practically i would also want to know how you people are doing to beat them consistently (if you do)

i for my part am trying darkblast and doran again, and hoping them to show some good results, .... on paper it should help the goblin matchup significantly, but i have barely any time to test right now since i have a lot to do for university at the moment (and that wont probably change for the next 2 months... doh)

Burrenton Forge-tender perhaps? A pretty decent card to keep Lackey/Piledriver at bay, can be sacced in response to a Warren Weirding to delay a hit from Lackey, etc. Has utility versus Burn.

Against, Zoo, it will probably suck. That's the problem, there's no "catch-all" answer that we can play that will help versus both decks. Dueling Grounds is the closest thing I suppose, but even then, that doesn't guarantee anything.

true i forgot about dueling grounds, but still zoo wins the goyfwars, which sucks, in in lists without mox it even could be to slow against goblins

burrenton forge-tender is really sweet against goblins, stops early lackeys and saves your bigger dudes from being burned with incinerators, and sacs to warren wierding (at least once, hence if opponent has recurring wierdings it will suck again), plus forge tender would only be a viable choice if we would run equip as well... so for the stoneforge lists he might be a not so bad option against both deck i think, but he would definitely be only a metachoice i think

For the E Tutor guys (like myself), I suppose CoP: Red could be viable... seems janky though.

rape theyre hand and extirpate theyre paths / swords....this matchup is tough but heres the thing I dont v=care what you do you are gonna have a tough matchup you just have to pick your poison...Ive had some success with damnation outta the board though.....Some builds run up to 6 to 8 swords or paths and thats the problem...Ive heard the kitchen finks is good too....

If you run 3 Finks out of the Board instead of, say, another card, you'd do much better.

-Matt

I think the best card against both Zoo and Goblins is Firespout. Sure, the manabase would have to be adjusted a little bit (Moxes makes this a little easier), but it would be totally unexpected, and it doesn't affect your own creatures. It's also really good against other decks like Elves, Affinity that have been seeing more play.

Burrenton Forge-tender is INSANE. Seems like not a big deal, but it is. Test it.

Insane versus Goblins, but against Zoo? I mean, they really only have burn spells as their Red sources of damage, and in G2 and G3 (when Burrenton Forge-tender is active), they board in things like Jitte, Path, etc... not more Red sources of damage (if anything, I'd presume they take their burn out for Jitte, etc).