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How about instead of the 3 Dismemeber you do 2 Warren Weirding and 1 Stingscourger? This way you won't have to dilute you deck for more spot removal, and you have the added benefit of having removal spells that are also bodies when needed (Stingscourger is a 2/2 body with a removal spell built in, Warren Weirding can be played on yourself to net you one more goblin).Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
Instants
4 Mental Misstep
Basic Lands
5 Mountain
Lands
2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
I'm thinking of giving this list a try at my next tourny. I'm very interested in exploring the power of MM. I believe it has many benefits which we haven't taken enough time to explore, and I think it has many synergies which we're overlooking.
On to the deck-
The Manabase
22 Lands, 7 Fetches, 2 Duals, 5 Mountains, 4 Ports, 4 Wastes.
An equal number of fetches and colored mana producing lands seemed decent for several reasons. First, fetches thin out your deck (I know, not really, but every basic you fetch out of you deck is one less card to blank Ringleader). Secondly, fetching is less risky in a deck with MM because you have an out to Stifle.
I'm running 4 Ports for several reasons. They're great cards, and without them our chances in MUs like Enchantress and Control go down significantly. I played Enchantress last week with a deck that only ran 1 Port, and I realized Port was the only meaningful interaction I had against it (G splash so no Warren Weirding to kill Argothian Enchantress). Another reason to include Port is our access to MM. Now, when we Port them in their upkeep and they Brainstorm in response we can MM their Brainstorm (or whatever 1-drop they try to play off of the Ported land. More on this later).
No Chrome Mox - I decided that since I'm running 30 non-red cards Chrome Mox won't be as reliable. Also, since I have MM to back up Lackey/Vial I don't need to run Warren Instigator. I really think a MM protected Lackey is far superior to a T1 unprotected instigator anyway.
Green Splash- Tin Street Hooligan is a natural balance against Stoneforge Mystic. Also, it allows Ancient Grudge to be played out of the side, which is pretty huge for today's Equipment filled metagame.
The Creatures
The Core 26 cards are all in there. The only additional ones are Gempalm (which I've always felt should be an auto 4-of), 2 Stingscourger (which is another great card for stalling your opponent out), and 1 TSH for artifact bashing. The lone Goblin Chieftain is there because, well, I like him. I've found many occasions where his pump takes me from an even to dominant board position, and more Haste enablers is always a good thing.
Mental Misstep
Probably the two most popular cards in the format are Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares. MM stops both. Why does that matter for Goblins' gameplan? Because Goblins wants to connect with Lackey and Waste/Port lands. MM allows Lackey to resolve through an opposing MM, keeps Lackey from being discarded on the draw, stops a blocker from entering the battlefield on the draw or the play, and prevents a resolved Lackey from being Swords or Bolted. When you sent a Lackey through an open board and your opponent Swords it, MM wins the game on the spot. It destroys your opponent's gameplan. They go from playing a game where they force you to play fair to a game where you're cheating things into play again. Cheating Gobbos into play frees up your Ports to tap down your opponent. When they try to use that 1 mana in response, you can MM that spell. If that spell was Brainstorm that means no digging for more land or combo pieces. No shuffling away useless cards to crack a fetch. No hand sculpting to find their conditional spells (or ditch the conditional spells that are useless). The strength of non-blue decks has always been redundancy. They strength of Blue decks is their ability to sculpt their hand, thereby optimizing their conditional spells. MM weakens their ability to do so. Resolving a MM on Brainstorm can effectively Timewalk your opponent. That's a huge deal for Goblins. We still have all the tools we did before, but now MM allows us more ways to fuck up our opponents' plans.
MM Tactics-
Stop a discard spell T1 on the draw.
Resolve a Lackey/Vial through MM.
Counter the opposing Lackey/Vial.
Counter a 1drop blocker or Green Sun's Zenith for 0.
Protect Lackey against Swords/Bolt/Darkblast/BEB.
Counter Stifle on a fetch or Wasteland.
Counter 1cc cast in response to a Port activation.
And, in many ways its most powerful application, counter Brainstorm (leaves dead cards in opponents' hand, makes them miss land drops [which is more relevant with 4 Ports], keeps them from fetching away chaff).
The more I think about it, the more I like Mental Misstep. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I'm extremely interested to see how it works out and I hope to report back on it later this week.
jrw1985: Please use that list, and write how MM and the deck went.
I'd really like to read that.
I've been working with my buddy on his goblin deck. What do you guys think of the W splash and MD tinkerer?
White splash gives:
MD Mirror Entity which gives goblins the beatdown power in mid-late game
MD Crib Swap which is amazing at ridding yourself of opposing lords, goyfs, knights, pesky pro red dudes, etc.
SB Great combo hate to improve that abysmal matchup.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I'm testing them as 4-of in SB on the next tourney (two weeks) and will report only on that topic.
Bro we ran almost the same list but my experience with 2 taiga's maindeck is not that so good. I'd split it to a single TAIGA and a Forest due to reasons that all decks ran wastelands and in an early game/late game use of the taiga is prone to wasteland. Yes we can delay its entry until we need the green mana source but in an early draw with taiga's with no fetches and basics you are obliged to use it, thus its prone to wasteland. This is what happened to me in our Duels for Dual tournament, Id fetch my taiga that turn with wooded foothills and destroyed his jitte with tinstreet, then his turn he wasteland my taiga and cast Eplague! WTF I have a Kgrip in my hand and had no green source . . . . If it was a forest it would be different. Now I ran a lone taiga and a forest and it works great for me, just ran 7 fetches with 4 wooded foothills.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I think you'd get screwed up more often playing with 13 R manasources. Maybe if you fetch the Forest you won't be able to cast Warchief+Piledriver next turn, and that cost you the game. You can aways hold fetches. I know people like to use them ASAP, due to "thining", but it is not a good idea. That manabase could cut a Port for another Fetch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinoy Goblin
That is a different scenario bro, what cost me the game is that Eplague (after he wasteland my taiga) if only I have a green source I have my kgrips on hand . . . regarding fetching a forest with warchief and pile on hand on an early game that is just plainly stupid. Fetching of a green source will only be done when you need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Regarding screwing with 13R sources . . . So far I have no problems with that manabase, I dont like to cut my ports but maybe I'll add a fetch and cut a goblin card so that i'll have 14R sources and 23 total lands, we'll see... more testing to do.
+ 1 here too, though if it were me I'd skip the green and work in some Instigators.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I have tested Mental Misstep in the maindeck, and so far my verdict is that it is playable in Goblins (which is something by itself, not that many cards are) but also not necessary. The hands where you get MM and something to protect with it (e.g. Lackey or Vial) are the games where it shines, at other times it is just a counter that trades with one of your opponents cards (it is rarely dead). Which is bad in Goblins, because we need threat density more than answers. Four non-goblin, non-mana cards dilutes the deck, not by much, but it is noticable. Even if we get Vial/Lackey + MM, sometimes they can Force or Daze, bypassing our MM. In that situation, and with Goblins in general, we want to answer counters and removal with more threats, not with counters. For this reason, I feel that 4 Warren Instigator is a must these days, because it is a better answer to MM than MM is. Earlier I had a gut feeling that MM was going to be fantastic, not so much in every deck, but particularly in Goblins, but testing has so far made me doubt it. It would be interesting to hear other peoples findings.
Hi! I've been reading the old thread and I was pretty interested in a discussion about Cabal Therapy (it was mostly harass on Lejay's list).
So, I got really curious to test Cabal Therapy again, since it's stupidly great in Dredge (my main deck).
I haven't had a chance to test it, but as a sketch, what are your opinions on this list?
Lands [22]
7 Fetches
3 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
Core [25]
-1 Piledriver
Others [12]
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pithing Needle
1 Boartusk Liege
The Flex slots should be called SYNERGY PACKAGE imo. Every card has a good interaction, making the mid-game mini-combos a fine option.
The sideboard is my current for R/b. Shattering Spree and Pithing Needles are fine, and I won't even talk about the other slots.
Any comments?
My bad. I missed that card. Pyrokinesis is a better card than Dismember in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by raindrainxi
Thanks for your feedback. I'd like to start with mono red for now and save up for duals and fetches in the long run so Warren Weirding would be out of the question at least for now (even though I already have that in my cardpool). With your suggestion in mind, the others section would look like this for now:Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Others (12):
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mental Misstep
2 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis
Again, thanks for the feedback! I'm looking forward in trying out this archetype. XD
Wanted a opinion of a Goblin deck [B/R] that I have been working on recently...
[Core] (26)
[Land] (21)
4 Rishadan Port
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstainded Mire
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
The Variables
4 Goblin Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Warren Instigators
2 Mogg War Marshall
SB
2 Pyrokenesis
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Perish
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 tormod's Crypt
1 Boartusk Leige
2 Chaos Warp (tested it this past Weekend, blew out a overextended Team America players with E. Plague on the Board.)
Your variable ("flex") slots are solid choices; all are established, good cards, and the specific numbers are generally a matter of personal preference. Most given winning goblin lists are not *exactly* the same in regards to the flex slots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deck Dont Matter
I will say, though, that Tinkerer is usually considered worse than TukTuk Scrapper or Tin-Street Hooligan, at least, if its your only anti-artifact. Having to wait a turn to activate if you don't have a Warchief can be really harsh, espeically if you're facing down something like a Jitte (which can kill your Warchief in response to the Tinkerer, and then next turn kill your Tinkerer). If you're going mono-red and you're only going to run one anti-artifact, I would choose TukTuk.
Finally, I would say that you probably need at least 22 land. The deck is mana hungry and plenty of people have run 23 or even 24. I don't think I've ever seen a successful list get away with less than 22.
Thanks for the advice...I think I'll go with the change out of
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg War Marshall
+1 Mountain
+1 TukTuk Scrapper
Let you all know how play goes this weekend...
I want to welcome those new Warchiefs that have found their way into our baracks. I hope you will be successful with the deck and have lots of fun with it.
Threre's one thing I find strange:
Weren't Goblins suppossed to be dead? It's not that I share this oppinion, but that somehow seemed to be the consensus of the magic community. Still, it appears to me that there are more people starting with the deck than ever before (which I find really, really cool).
:cool:
Hi everyone, I’m a new goblin player and would like some advice from you guys!
Here is my R/b list and some explanations on my choices:
[Core] (26)
[Land] (22)
7 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie’s Hovel (budget reason)
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port (only 2 cause 11 goblins demand double colored mana)
1 Swamp (to make sure i have access to B source vs Wasteland)
The Flex Slots
[Removal] (6)
2 Goblin Incinerator (without War Marshall, more incinerators would be weak)
2 Warren Weirding
2 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigators (for better threat density)
2 Goblin Chieftain (nice interaction with Instigators + Tinkerer)
1 Goblin Tinkerer (I read that Tuktuk might be better?)
1 Wort (the only goblin card as far as I know which allow us to use our cemetery)
SB I’m pretty sure about
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Perish
3 Relic of Progenitus
Sb I’m not sure about (need advice)
4 Thorn of Amethyst (do you think that chalice of the void would be better here? Something else?)
2 Tuktuk scrapper (should I place 1 in MD with that many Stoneforge around?)
1 Earwig Squad (only combo-hate goblin I could find)
Thank you for your help!
What I have noticed here is that there has been a surge of players selling off their Goblins, the rising availability may have been one of the causes of new players.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I personally think that the loss of Goblins in Top 8 lists may cause other players to underestimate us, which will ultimately be to our advantage.
Hovel by itself is not such a good idea, although as you said it is due to economic reasons. If it is because of this, monoR should be considered. The B splash has been relatively weak nowadays, notably because of Weirding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethi
Just a question guys, has Merfolks officially become better than Goblins? By better I mean, has the match-up become unfavorable, and have they become ultimately better in the meta? I know Merfolks has a large showing in top 8 lists, but this can also be attributed to the low showing of Gobs overall imo.
I picked it up just before the GP because I was expecting blue to be everywhere. People never stop playing blue. Ever.
It's generally agreed that Chalice of the Void is better than Thorn as an anti-combo card. Personally, I tend to use Mindbreak Trap as my anti-combo card, but that's mostly because I see Spiral Tide in my meta and every once in a while I rip a couple off of a Time Spiral and one of them gets there. If I owned a set of Chalices I'd probably run those instead though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethi
I run one artifact killer in the main and two in the board. My main deck target is always a goblin, and I use Pulverize out of the board. I see TezzAffinity pretty regularly, so a resolved Pulverize is pretty much GG. Having the option in the main deck has been relevant more often than not for me, there are plenty of problem equipment and artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge) that people main deck these days. As for Stoneforge, Gempalm Incinerator solves that little problem, and bouncing the Batterskull germ with a Stingscourger usually gives me the couple turns I need to win when coupled with mana denial.