[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by learntolove6

can i ask if they were MD or SB?

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I played them mainboard because i wanted to test them, and there was quite some aggro in the meta.

today at a bigger tournament i performed poorly with the deck, just not to say i did terrible. I ended up only boarding them in against goblins and some deck i can't recall.
It is a blowout everytime you resolve it, and otherwise it's just a 2 for 1 removal spell or better. Sometimes the time and brainstorms wasted on setting up terminus can be ennoying though.

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Originally Posted by learntolove6

Another question: What do people think about Mirran Crusader instead of Geist of Saint Traft in straight UW Stoneblade. He can be targeted, yes, however, consider the fact that he can block Nimble Mongoose all day and get through all of Maverick's defenses. In addition, Geist is outclassed by Esper by Lingering Souls. You go T3 Geist, they Lingering Souls and suddenly you can't attack anymore. Crusader completely avoids that. His clock is slower, but he wears a Jit better.

In theory, he sounds very strong, but you need to protect him. Geist protects himself from Bolts and Plows, but Crusader doesn't, but could these upsides be enough of a reason to run him?

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I play Mirran Crusader over Lingering Souls in esper and its been great for me. I felt Geist wasn't good enough on defense and crusader's pro green was very strong in some of the bad match-ups. I tried realy hard to like Lingering Souls and sometimes i did but offten it was just a fog effect. Jitte is easy to find in stoneblade and on Crusader it owns the bord.

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Originally Posted by learntolove6

Another question: What do people think about Mirran Crusader instead of Geist of Saint Traft in straight UW Stoneblade. He can be targeted, yes, however, consider the fact that he can block Nimble Mongoose all day and get through all of Maverick's defenses. In addition, Geist is outclassed by Esper by Lingering Souls. You go T3 Geist, they Lingering Souls and suddenly you can't attack anymore. Crusader completely avoids that. His clock is slower, but he wears a Jit better.

In theory, he sounds very strong, but you need to protect him. Geist protects himself from Bolts and Plows, but Crusader doesn't, but could these upsides be enough of a reason to run him?

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I play Mirran Crusader over Lingering Souls in esper and its been great for me. I felt Geist wasn't good enough on defense and crusader's pro green was very strong in some of the bad match-ups. I tried realy hard to like Lingering Souls and sometimes i did but offten it was just a fog effect. Jitte is easy to find in stoneblade and on Crusader it owns the bord.

Stoneblade is starting to put up worse and worse results. I feel like the Black splash was a good meta-call for a while, but I feel like it's a trap in an environment filled with so many mana denial strategies (Maverick, Aggro Loam, and RUG).

I agree that splashing into b is actually slowing the deck down and offering opponents too much time in many situations.

I have reverted back to U/W and will see how that goes for a while again.

Geist has been a nice addition though, and I am hoping to see if Entreats/Terminus works out to possibly replace WoG in one-two slots of the SB.

Cheers

Splashing into black doesn't slow the deck down - it just naturally isn't fast. Lingering Souls are quite awesome though.

Personally I've just adopted to run Delver/Daze/Wasteland, which does work wonders.

I don't like the black splash at all. Splashing for Discard seems fine to me but Lingering Souls feels not got enough, but this is just my personal experience with it. Sure it can win games when you connect with jitte, but the opponent has many ways to interrupt you with that.
I'd like to post my list that won me a ~45 Player tournament three weeks ago:

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Island

Sideboard
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wrath of God


I will admit this seems a little bit random with this many 3offs. It was due to testing measures. In retrospect would increase Snapcaster, Visions, Bolt to 4 and Decrease some Geists and move an Elspeth to the board.
This deck has some advantages over creature heavy decks and Controlish decks like NicFit, but lacks maindeck answers to combo. This seems fine in the current meta. The deck forces the trade with the opponent and wins through resolving a Visions or another Bomb like a Jace.
Just for reference: I won against Protean Hulk Combo 2-0, Nic Fit 2-0, Reanimator 2-0, Supreme Blue 2-0, Mud 2-1 and lost to Esperblade 0-2.
As some may be aware of this list was adapted from the russian national championships. I tried it becaurse i really like Ancestral Vision in this deck. I think the card is well positioned right now as many matchups turn into grindy games (Maverick, RUG, mirror and other control ish decks like nic fit).
If i would play a tournament right now i would choose this kind of list or a straight up UW List with a solid manabase. I really dislike the Esper manabase, because you are forced to fetch duals to cast your spells properly. This in combination with just 22 Lands is really greedy and asks for punishment.
The next thing is trying to fit Terminus in this deck (for Wrath and EE). Unfortunately my copies aren't there yet. Is the general consensus that this card deserves the slot or is Wrath more consistent?
-preddi

This talk about the pros/cons of splashes reminds of the the old Cawblade discussions (back in Standard) with the UWr/UWb/UW builds and the pros/cons of each (UWx more vulnerable to Tectonic Edge blowouts, but it offers more utility/removal, etc).

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

This talk about the pros/cons of splashes reminds of the the old Cawblade discussions (back in Standard) with the UWr/UWb/UW builds and the pros/cons of each (UWx more vulnerable to Tectonic Edge blowouts, but it offers more utility/removal, etc).

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Exactly. Each splash adds a lot of power and utility and for a while it gets a jump on the meta, but in the end UW is still the most consistent.

Also, despite how much I like the card, I'm hesitant to run Ancestral Vision because of how bad it feels on the draw when I need that Snare mana up.

I'm not sure why anyone would think the black splash slows things down. If anything, it speeds it up. In my experience, you're much more on curve than UW, which has to hold open mana for counter magic and removal. T1 helps you T2 into Stoneforge (or know not to, depending on what's left in the opponent's hand), or T1 Ponder helps you fix your hand. Lingering Souls is very powerful unless your opponent has a sweeper, which for most matchups is only available in the form of EE or post-board hate, and it's relatively expendable. Counter my LS? Okay, I'll flash it back. Counter it again? Okay, now you can't counter my Stoneforge.

The tradeoff with early discard that I've found is that while you're still (generally) 1:1-ing the opponent, it doesn't nullify their tempo like counter magic does. Then again, relying on Spell Snare makes you miss a lot of the dangerous one-drops (e.g. Delver, Mongoose) anyway. Bringing in Pierces post-board, it may be more correct to sit on an Island T1 so you can pierce them, and worry about discard later.

It's true that it makes you more vulnerable to land destruction. If you're going off of Martell's list, 22 lands is about 2 lighter than the norm for U/W. However, I have found the Ponders helpful, and I don't know that I've had less luck with mana overall than with U/W. The main thing I've lost out on is Mishras and Wastelands. Even when playing Wastelands, however, I found myself usually keeping them cause I needed the mana. The Vindicate can help in dire situations, if I can find it, of course.

The best Black splash I can think of would be something like 3-4 Lingering Souls, 2 IoK, 1 Thoughtseize, and 1 Vindicate. It definitely adds a lot of power. You're losing most of your Spell Snares, maybe a Taigo or two, a Clique or two, and Elspeth. Maybe a fair trade, maybe not.

Spell Snare might not touch one drops, but targeted discard doesn't help that much either except when you are on the play (and you are not necessarily going to ever be on the play in a match). Your best answers to Mongoose are Lingering Souls, Clique, Jitte, and Batterskull. You have less Cliques and post-board Lingering Souls is unreliable. That leaves you right back where you were without the Black splash. The difference is that now you're compromising your mana base.

RUG has Wasteland, Stifle, Spell Pierce, and Daze. Running more basics makes Wasteland and Stifle unreliable, which in turn make Spell Pierce and Daze worse. By opening yourself up more to Wasteland and Stifle, you are turning on another 6-7 cards in their deck.

Maverick operates similarly. KotR into Wasteland or just naturally drawn Wastelands turn on Thalia and Choke. Nobles and GSZ/Arbor makes it so that they aren't getting behind while they are Wasting you. Without Wasteland to turn her on, Thalia is just good, not backbreaking.

Running a mana base like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Or even this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Is still far, far greedier than something like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Wasteland eats the first mana base alive. Even though the second mana base has quite a few basics, a well aimed Stifle can easily cut you off a color.

Sulfur Elemental takes away the inevitability of Lingering Souls, so you must rely on the inevitability of your mana base. I will eventually get enough basics to make a good 10-14 cards of RUG's dead and I will drop a threat like Batterskull, SoFF, or Elspeth that they cannot answer with their conditional counters.

I think the risk of destabilizing your manabase in the RUG matchup is occasionally problematic, but discard and Lingering Souls are still better than Spell Snare and Vendilion Clique in that matchup (which are terrible). Perish is pretty strong here too, but probably not better than Path to Exile, as long as you can handle Mongoose. I'd say adding black doesn't really hurt or benefit your matchup against RUG.

Against Maverick, it's a whole different story. The black splash makes this matchup approximately a million times easier. :cool:

I've been playing pierce for a while in the MD and it's fantastic. It's much easier to cast compared to Counterspell and is very relevant earlier in the game. It busts combo like a rockstar, especially decks with daze. Being 1 mana cheaper makes all the difference.

Also, it's alot easier to snapcaster back, or to keep 1 mana and a piece open to protect your sfm/jace. On the splash or no splash topic, I've always found straight uw the best and most stable. The black. Splash was best in the mirror because preboard, dealing with lingering souls is very hard. However the weakness to wastelands is a huge problem.

Also I've been running a full set of 4 wastes, mainly to give pierce more mileage and to stop cavern of souls. I usually just stomp on tribal with equipment, but I've been having problems with caverns lately. Uncounterable lackeys/stingscourger are a huge problem. Also wastelands are never bad, I've found them alot more useful than mishra's.

Edit: Also anyone feel a little disappointed by Elspeth? I've found her quite underpowered in this deck. We're not very aggro, so winning damage races isn't a factor. Delvers can ignore her and maverick doesn't really care too much about her. I've found that she is really only great against opposing jaces. Maybe try 1 copy of entreat in her place? I find that entreat is a miracle card worth setting up. If you miracle it with 4/5 mana, it will usually win you the game. I'm trying to make space for 1/2 copies in the md/board.

Perhaps a little too narrow in the MD, but 1 copy in the board when you are shifting to. The non-Stoneforge plan seems good. I'll cut my 4th jace for it.

The problem with Peirce vs Counterspell/Leak is that Peirce can't counter creatures, and there's some creatures you can't always rely on removal for; and other than 1-drop creatures, what more are you afraid of enough to give up the hard counter? You can still Snare the scariest play, Chalice@1.

Anyway, the UW arguments above make sense and all- I think this thread has gone through enough debates about mana base stability, and we a recognize that there is a tradeoff going one way or the other. But if we're making our arguments based on large tourney top8s, I'll just point out that UW Stoneblade hasn't exactly been topping the charts.

I think a more fruitful discussion/debate can be had by discussing particular matchups. Most of us aren't in the top 32 of weekly SCG Opens (much less with byes that let us sneak past all the tier-N decks); we're in local metas with their own characters.

With that in mind, some observations of mine:

Esper may be worse off than UW against Pernicious Jace/BUG Control, thanks to their Pernicious Deed and land destruction suite.

OTOH, I think Esper has a distinct advantage against Maverick (compared to UW, that is), mainly thanks to discard being stronger in this case than counters and removal, plus Perish.

Discard vs Thresh is not terrible, but it's not great; I'd rely more on the tokens for this, and try not to overextend after Game 1 due to Sulfur Elemental.

I think Combo is a mixed bag and depends on the combo. I found discard and LS effective against Sneak Show, but I also was playing an inexperienced player, and SS hasn't been a presence in my weekly tournies. Reanimator is tougher, I think, because in this case the counter magic is more effective; but I don't think UW had a great time against Reanimator until game 2 anyway, and postboard is often a grind no matter what. I've had better luck against High Tide, although this typically hinges on pressure from Batterskull; the proactive discard effects are stronger here than counters, because they can out-counter you when they're going off (thanks in part to Pact of Negation); discard makes them drop cards before they're in that position. I haven't played TES since I went Esper, so I can't comment on that from experience.

Oh, and I agree with ivanpei that Elspeth is lackluster against decks like Delver, especially if you're relying on her to make tokens. She's much better when you can use her +3/+3 (and still keep her alive on the counter assault). She's best at helping you break through grinding matches (maybe good against BUG?), not dealing with fast threats.

I feel that entreat can be the lingering souls replacement uw has been looking for. It's not dependant on Jitte, doesn't need the black splash, doesn't need alot of slots or deck changes. It just straight up wins the game when it lands. Against Aggro, control etc it is gg if you stick 2/3 angels or more. Your opponent's would have fried the early sfm/clique so even 2 angels will get there, ditto when against a jace. It also floods the ground against Mav with big bodies and not just chump blockers.

Regarding setting up, it's pretty easy with brainstorm, snapcaster and jace. I'd advise holding on to it till the last minute and suddenly flooding the board with angels for the blowout. It's like the ultimate come from behind card. Unlikely temporal, this card will win you the game no matter what board position you are in. Temporal is only good when you are ahead. Terminus on the other hand, I am undecided on. It's great when you are behind and much easier to cast than wrath. But playing too many copies is hard because you might draw too many early and be forced to use brainstorm to set it up. The trick to abuse sweepers is timing. It's hard to time terminus correctly for maximum effect and might lead to going off too early or too late. I'm sticking to ee/wrath for now.

I'd be curious to see how people's testing with Entreat goes. In terms of pure theorycrafting...

Elspeth:
+ Not affected by creature removal/sweepers/Deed

+ Is good at any stage of the game

+ Can be sandbagged in hand for as long as you like

- Bad against fliers

- Producing one 1/1 a turn isn't high impact and can't save an overrun board state

Entreat the Angels:
+ Has a powerful impact on the board the turn it's played

+ Gets better the longer the game goes

+ Topdecked any time after turn 4/5 is possibly game winning

- Doesn't play nicely with our (and opposing) sweepers

- Requires Miracle for maximum benefit (therefore much less flexible with its timing)

- Encourages you to play badly into Daze/Spell Pierce

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Temporal Mastery
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Entreat the Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Spell Snare
1 Ponder
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island


At the moment I would like to test something like that. Temporal Mastery is at worst a mana ramp or a win more option, but it can also help to dig us out of a bad situation.

Another idea ist to fit the counterbalance package into the deck:
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Counterspell
-1 Temporal Mastery
-1 Ponder
-1 Jace
+3 CB
+3 Top

something like that.

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Originally Posted by Thorondor

At the moment I would like to test something like that. Temporal Mastery is at worst a mana ramp or a win more option, but it can also help to dig us out of a bad situation.

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I mean, an uncastable do-nothing is worse still. Even an uncastable do-nothing that you can play in conjunction with brainstorm in order to set up a mana ramp is pretty awful...

I really like 3-4x Terminus as it is almost never dead against decks with creatures, can be back-breaking, and is usually always worth the setup if you're willing to play it.
This is not a great thread for sfm-less,blade-less UW control decks, however.

(Check out Carsten Kotter's article/lists here, if you haven't. If there isn't a good place to discuss these, perhaps there should be.)

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

Personally I've just adopted to run Delver/Daze/Wasteland, which does work wonders.

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Could we see a list?