Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GerryT
Hey y'all. The Legacy MOCS is coming up so I decided to buy Dredge online. Since I was only a few cards short of Manaless Dredge, I decided to try that as well and was pleasantly surprised.
I started with Hollywood's list, cut the Reverent Silence package from the board since very few people play Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void online.
I decided to track my matches:
2-0 Jund Nic Fit/Scapeshift
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
0-2 Belcher
2-0 B/G Pox
1-2 Mono-Black Dark Depths
2-0 Aluren
0-2 TES (t2 both games)
2-1 Junk (t1 Deathrite each game)
2-1 Elves (t1 Deathrite each game)
0-2 ANT (t2 both games)
2-0 Elves
0-2 Elves
1-2 RUG (Surgical + Ooze)
1-2 Burn (t1 Relic g2/3)
1-2 MonoG Infect (no dredger in opener all 3 games)
At this point, I started discussing the deck with Mark Sun and Dan Musser. We decided that Chancellor of the Annex was something we wanted to try. Against Deathrite Shaman, you want Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith in your opener, but Chancellor was another thing that would help. Granted, we weren't losing to many Deathrite Shamans, despite several of them being cast, but Storm was the main thing we wanted help against.
2-0 Junk
2-0 Burn
1-2 Elves (I punted very badly)
2-0 Doomsday
0-2 Burn
2-0 Aluren
2-1 Esper Stoneblade
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Teeg, Mortarpod)
2-0 Jund
1-2 Burn (t3 kill)
2-1 Reanimator (Shoaled his Elesh Norn!)
1-2 B/G Pox (Leyline g2/3)
Here I decided to buy Mindbreak Traps for 17 tickets each because I was losing to Storm and was more committed to the deck, so I didn't mind buying cards I would likely resell at a loss.
2-0 BUG
1-2 ANT (no Leyline, he Therapy-ed my Trap)
2-0 Junk
2-0 BUG
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Zenith x2 for Deathrites, Thorn, Teeg)
1-2 UR Delver (t1 Relic g2/3)
Overall, I was 17-16 but a lot of that was Storm decks and a lot of it was while I was refining the deck.
This is my current list:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
2 Contagion
4 Gitaxian Probe
The Leylines were to help against Storm and Burn. Chalice of the Void is another option if I wanted to become more hateful. I wanted Gitaxian Probe or Call to the Netherworld to speed me up against combo but so far they've been lackluster. Additional hate like Chalice would be much better, even if it means I'm not dredging until turn three or whatever. I've also been considering maindecking the Mindbreak Traps over Sickening Shoal just to try and get an edge against Storm.
I've had 13 hands with no dredger, which has been incredibly disappointing every time it happens. I'm strongly considering the 4th Shambling Shell just to pad my percentages.
Dryad Arbor has been pretty awesome as an accelerator but unfortunately I've never had it whenever they've had Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, etc. I know Dan is trying lists without it entirely.
I've cut back on the Dread Return package, which might be incorrect, but it's not necessary in most of the matchups. Regardless of whether you want a full DR package or not, I think it's safe to cut one Flayer and one Nether Shadow.
Chancellor of the Annex has been fantastic as a way to steal back initiative. It also makes a fine DR target.
Flayer solves most of the problems that Angel would, but I had the sideboard space and didn't want to run into something I couldn't deal with. That said, I will likely cut it, as those situations are few and far between.
I've had Leyline of the Void put into play against me twice, once by Mono-Black Dark Depths and once by B/G Pox. Obviously I can't beat it, but if I'm doing my job and staying in the winners' bracket, that shouldn't be an issue. Rest in Peace is a "real" card but I'm seeing more traditional Miracles and Stoneblade online.
Honestly, this deck doesn't lose to Deathrite Shaman (nor would normal Dredge if built correctly), so I don't see why people are putting Dredge down. It's the enchantments that are the issue, but those are rarely played except by the most hateful of people.
I like this deck, will continue to work on it, and it's currently my frontrunner for the MOCS.
I dont know if i agree with cutting the shadow and flayer and griselbrand. Chancellor of the annex in my opinion is just not that great. In addition leyline seems like a bad choice that time walks us. Playing against storm i have just won turn 2 dread return griselbrand dredge the whole deck flayer combo. This has happened time and time again and cutting the DR package limits the explosiveness and consistency of manaless.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
So...
I think I want Chancellor of the Annex back in the main.
I apollogize for all my nay-saying, but Deathrite Shaman really seems not as bad, as I thought it is.
Still... I think our 8 outs [Phantasmagorian & Street Wraith] aren't enough to fight them. I really like Contagion [see... I learned how to write it =P], but it is more a pseudo-out, and I like it MUCH more against turn 2 Shamans or Oozes or whatever. With 4 Chancellors main we could get a little edge against combo, and we would have 90,1% chance to open one of 16 outs [if you count Contagion], to really trump the massively overplayed Shaman.
Problem is, what to cut? I tryed to shrink the DR-Package [-1 Griselbro, Flayer, Dread Return], and -1 Shambling Shell.
[Dropping the propabilities from 88,2%/91,6% to 86,1%/89,8%] opening with a dredger. [7/8 cards drawn]
But I am not sure if this is the way to go. I don't see any other cards, that seem cut-able, which is the main problem, IMO. In the past, I'd said Phantasmagorian, but not in these times.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
teonsw
I dont know if i agree with cutting the shadow and flayer and griselbrand. Chancellor of the annex in my opinion is just not that great. In addition leyline seems like a bad choice that time walks us. Playing against storm i have just won turn 2 dread return griselbrand dredge the whole deck flayer combo. This has happened time and time again and cutting the DR package limits the explosiveness and consistency of manaless.
Chancellor is as good as advertised. I have the deck in paper (and Dan online) and we're sort of trading off a little bit each week, keeping the local metagame honest against either of us. It's a DR target in a pinch, it protects us from t1 Deathrite Shaman and helps us "reset" the play/draw position back to favor us. The first time I played the stock list, I knew that I wanted this type of effect. This deck is very explosive, but it always seemed about a turn too slow to get into good position against the DRS decks.
Leylines are pretty necessary, actually, if you don't want to lose to the faster combo decks in the format. Since LED decks are a much larger pillar in the online metagame than on paper, this makes sense. You can say that you can race them all day, but sometimes you just get t2'ed anyways (see Gerry's summary of matches). Leyline loses you a turn, but if you have it in your opener, they probably lose way more than one turn trying to find an answer.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Another rules question. Do players keep passing priority at end of turn? Say example...
During my opponents end of turn I activate my Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then my opponent doesn't respond so I dredge with the wraith... After which I respond and activate Phantasmagorian again... After the Phantasmagorian returns to my hand, can I still cast Noxious Revival? Or does it automatically go to my untap step since my opponent decides not to respond?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
Another rules question. Do players keep passing priority at end of turn? Say example...
During my opponents end of turn I activate my Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then my opponent doesn't respond so I dredge with the wraith... After which I respond and activate Phantasmagorian again... After the Phantasmagorian returns to my hand, can I still cast Noxious Revival? Or does it automatically go to my untap step since my opponent decides not to respond?
It only goes to the next phase after both players pass on an empty stack.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Since everything is put on the stack, you can still keep doing stuff.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Well done - seems you've been having a pretty good run lately!
People must see you and immediately get their GY hate ready:laugh:
I have to ask about Soul Spike. How many are you playing? I assume you only play them out of the side?
Do you find the life gain is worth the extra card exile, compared to Shoal?
You are spot on about this. When people in our area come to the tournaments and see him around, GY hate will surely rise. Not to mention that when he gets paired, his opponents always choose to draw :laugh:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Hello all!
I will be writing a tournament report soon from the experience I gained at NELC over the weekend.
Some minor input to add to the discussion though. Main I will be running 4x Probe as well as 4x Unmask in the main. The biggest problem I had was not getting a Therapy online early enough to disrupt my opponents. Against storm I see Unmask being invaluable. With Probe, not only does it give manaless more explosive power behind it but it also makes Therapy that much more threatening. I will be posting my newest list here soon that has the ability to win on turn two more reliably.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Hi all,
Could you please help me with some specifics with Manaless Dredge?
I know the deck well fairly well, but lately I've been getting some questions about the technical stuff and I'm not that sure of a few things!
Let's say i begin turn one on the draw. Draw a card.
8 cards, end of turn I discard down to 7 - is it the clean up step or the end step this happens?
Now once I've discarded down to 7 cards at the end of my own turn 1, I can then cycle a Street Wraith or activate Phantasmagorian (or both).
Can these two lines of play be used in the clean up step?
Phants uses the stack, but does Street Wraith use the stack when you cycle?
I always assumed so....
(I ask because of Extirpate states no other cards may be placed on the stack)
Cheers!
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Hi all,
Could you please help me with some specifics with Manaless Dredge?
I know the deck well fairly well, but lately I've been getting some questions about the technical stuff and I'm not that sure of a few things!
Let's say i begin turn one on the draw. Draw a card.
8 cards, end of turn I discard down to 7 - is it the clean up step or the end step this happens?
Now once I've discarded down to 7 cards at the end of my own turn 1, I can then cycle a
Street Wraith or activate
Phantasmagorian (or both).
Can these two lines of play be used in the clean up step?
Phants uses the stack, but does Street Wraith use the stack when you cycle?
I always assumed so....
(I ask because of
Extirpate states no other cards may be placed on the stack)
Cheers!
You discard at the clean up step, which is after the end step. No spells or abilities can be activated at the time of the cleanup step. You can activate Phantasmagorian + Street Wraith during your end step, but it would probably be your next end step after your first turn because you had to skip your end step to go to the cleanup in order to discard.
Cycling, in general, is an activated ability, so yes Street Wraith uses the stack if you cycle it.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
1st, hi everyone, i'm new to the forum :smile:
secondly, i have a question.. how does manaless tipycally deals with mulligans? since, unless i'm missing something, i don't see a manner of discarding a single card without getting up to 8
3rd i really like this list:
maindeck: 60
4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 dakmor salvage
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
4 bloodghast
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
4 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
2 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound
SB: 15
4 dryad arbor
4 reverent silence
2 natures claim
1 verdant catacombs
1 forest
3 soul spike
but i haven't yet managed to win one post board.. how do you guys normally manage to do it with all the hate? i don't seem to have as much trouble with the l.e.d. version..
what about this sb?
4 soul spike
4 bump in the night
4 dryad arbor
3 putrid imp
why not try to bypass the hate altogether? make a few dents where you can and stick'em with some spikes and bumps?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 Unmask
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
3 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
3 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor
Side:
2 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Natures Claim
3 Reverent Silence
4 Sickening Shoul or Contagion
I'm not a huge fan of Bloodghast and Drakmor Salvage. I haven't tested the above list out yet but I like being aggressive and being proactive by disrupting key pieces in their hand. While maintaining explosive power. I've played this deck for a few months now and I have notice one thing. The longer the game plays out for manaless the worse the game gets for the dredge player.
Ill have to correct my post later. There is only supposed to be 3 g.probe.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
@werlin There is almost no reason to ever mulligan with this deck, because as you noted you cannot discard until you hit 8 cards so a mulligan is a timewalk. This has been extensively discussed in the thread, and there have been a couple scenarios mentioned that might actually demand a mulligan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jankwolf
4 Golgari gravetroll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 Unmask
4 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 nether shadow
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 phantasmagorian
4 streetwraith
3 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
3 griselbrand
2 flayer of the hatebound
Side:
2 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Natures Claim
3 Reverent Silence
4 Sickening Shoul or Contagion
The 6 Probes is obviously a mistake, and you seem to be missing a 4 of in the maindeck unless I'm misscounting?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
thx Shadowmap :wink:
may you give me the general outlines of those extreme situations?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jankwolf
. . .I have notice one thing. The longer the game plays out for manaless the worse the game gets for the dredge player. . .
I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.
As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TerribleTim68
I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.
As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.
I've mulled with 0 dredge cards in hand and came out on top. That may be luck on my part. I should have clarified with my longer games comment. That only applys to post board. Allowing them to dig for more hate is a no go especially if we get stuck trying to deal with a Leyline or RIP.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I'll back up Terrible time here, mulligan = :cry:
Post board the gamestate is all about what biz your opponent can top deck to beat you.
Therapy can do enough to let you DDD enough to not even care, but going all in (less than 7 cards in hand) is something I usually don't do unless I'm winning on THAT turn, post board.
Probe is a card I want to run, but I just always find myself needing stuff other than more speed. It's always the first card I would board out, meaning I have to question why it's in my deck to start with.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TerribleTim68
I don't agree. I've played this deck in tournaments and find that the longer the game goes the better positioned I was. Typically, Legacy decks come out of the gates pretty fast. If you can hang with them they run out of gas while this deck never did. The only thing that stopped me from playing it was the intense amount of maindeck GY hate in my local meta. But when they weren't expecting it or they blinked, I usually ran them over since they can't interact with 90% of this deck.
As for the mulligan discussion, you need to go back through the thread. It's in there. But basically, if you run the standard list you shouldn't have to worry about it. I run Hollywood's standard list with only minimal SB changes and I've NEVER mulliganed. You're better off NOT mulliganing and learning how to play with what you drew, PERIOD!!!! Seriously, that's the best advice we can give you. Just keep your 7 and go from there and learn how to manage it. Don't dwell on "when should I mulligan", just go with the 7 you drew.
i have to agree with TerribleTim68 on this. I played this deck too for a long time now, the longer it gets the better. why? aside from doing your griselbrand no jutsu thing... your recurring creatures would eventually show up, beat them up with ichorids, or build your own "the walking dead" strategy with bridge from below. there's just so little your opponent can do against you. most of the decks cant interact with it. even deathrite shaman is having a hardtime against this deck specially if they're not familiar with the build. :tongue: . i'm also a fan of dakmor/bloodghast package.
for mulligan. its rare for this deck to mulligan unless you dont have at least 1 dredger (out of 15-16 dredger cards) in hand .
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Made the Finals of our local event with Manaless Dredge. I'll post details from it tomorrow.
