[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

Priest is very good against sneak and show. Also it's too powerful not to have as a green sun's zenith target, especially with 3 quirion rangers and 4 symbiotes.

Regal Force is better than the second Craterhoof, because it plays much better with green sun's zenith. Gszing for hoof kinda sucks because you usually tapped all your guys to cast the zenith. With regal it doesn't matter if they're tapped, you still get the cards.

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I don't think you've tested without Priest or Regal Force because these were undeniable staples in the old elves deck. I understand they are skeptic changes, and I was highly suspicious when I made them. But I can tell you, Priest is unnecessary most games. Sneak and Show is not as popular as OmniTell, where Priest (and all of our creatures outside the sb) are useless. One deck that makes up a very small percentage of the field is not worth it. Priest has been in my binder for months.

I know you would have hesitation to get your first Hoof when it wouldn't be lethal because you only have one total. Hence you place a lot of value on it. If you have the second, you'll be glad to get the first one and put some pressure on your opponent. And I really don't buy that you can GSZ for x=8 yet you can't attack with any other creature besides the Hoof. The frequency of that happening is really low between Nettle, Quirion and Symbiote in the deck.

In addition to all of the good points above, I just want to add that 4 llanowar/fyndhorn/mystic is definitely wrong. Most of us are down to 0/1 now. I'll admit that you need to work gsz->arbor harder now than in the past but the 4th heritage druid and X number of birchlores add way more explosiveness, especially in conjunction with cradles. Also, the nice benefit of fetching arbor early is at least you don't have to worry about drawing it later. Like Lemnear said, I suggest you read the thread from start to finish to see how the deck has progressed since GP Denver.

I don't literally mean reading 50+ pages, but all the topics and arguments for the quantities of NO, Cradles, Birchlores, Lands, Llanowars, Hoofs, Sideboard-Fatties, etc. are all in those 50 pages. If needed you can search for it.

As mentioned, the 50 pages cover the Transformation since GP Denver which imo turned the deck into a total beast



Edit:
Sadly, I feel the deck has caped it's development capacity for the moment :/
I may need a new archtype to flip over and rebuild...

In those situations you either cast the craterhoof and win the game because you've clearly full blown combod if you've drawn 20 cards, or you pass the turn and win the game next turn.

Regal force is awesome.

And yes I tested this version of the deck without regal force and without priest. And lol at telling me to read the forum.

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

And yes I tested this version of the deck without regal force and without priest. And lol at telling me to read the forum.

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Yeah you guys post at a very high frequency in here. I can barely keep up and all I do is read. Chrandersen, the Crown Prince of Pendelhaven, likely has other things to do with his time. I have other things to do too, like trying desperately not to be unemployed, but that's a story for another day.

I just find it disturbing when 3-4 posters in a row have the audacity to so openly question the list of the guy who reinvigorated our chosen archetype. Do people tell Gerry T how to build his Shardless list? I mean maybe they do in that thread. I haven't checked. But if they do, that's kinda gross.

Success with this deck, more than any other deck IMO, relies more on playskill than decklist optimization. I understand that you guys are trying to fine tune an engine, but you can't ignore the driver in that equation, although it is a much more vague and difficult metric to measure. And this deck, likely more than any other, is especially forgiving when it comes to SUPER EXACT X's and Y's in the list. If you have a list that works for you, and you are winning with it, then I don't see a huge reason to change just because some forum shlub (and I count myself among that number) feels that you aren't playing an "optimized" list.

Of course there are some common sense exceptions to that rule (plz don't play Eladamri). But for the most part, we should all be able to run *somewhat different, yet mostly similar* lists of 75 and still be able to have happy fun elf times together.

That said, there are some personal qualms I have with Chrandersen's lists. But all that means is that I wouldn't take his exact list to a tourney I was playing in. That doesn't mean I feel like I should tell the Welterweight of Wirewood and Titan of Titania what list he should take to his next event.

Priest is still a card that taps for a bunch of mana. R.Force is still a card that can draw you out of a jam. Just because the "forum meta" of what an Elf deck "should" look like has changed, that doesn't mean Priest and R.Force are now blanks or dead cards. They are still great at what they do. Am I fanboying too hard on Chrandersen? Perhaps. But if so, then you guys aren't quite fanboying hard enough. At the very least you should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he knows what he is doing (because he does). If your suggestions are truly more efficient or whatever, I'm sure he will come to the same suggestions in time. Or he will just continue playing his own list. Whatever. As long as you do well (in a legit tourney!), I find it difficult to question your list. Even if you don't do well, sometimes Lady Luck can ruin your day.

There isn't a Right or Wrong list here. There is just a Your Deck and a My Deck. And if the player is good enough, they are all weapons with which we will destroy our non-Elven foes.

But please, fuckin please, do not play Eladamri.

This is my first post; though, I've been a lurker for some time.

I have been having some trouble with Miracles. I know that we all agree that this is a tough match for us. But I want to improve my odds against Miracles, as it's a hot deck in the metagame where I play. How do we realistically deal with Miracles?

@Daniel: To be fair, we (the elves thread) last heard from Chrandersen during the weekend of GP Denver when he borrowed the Nass-ty LSV list for the SCG event. Since then, he's top 8'ed a few times with tezzerator but hasn't openly played elves. I'm sure all of us agree that the play skill of the pilot is more important than anything else. Moreover, no one (as far as I know) is questioning Chrandersen's capability. However without context, it's difficult to gauge exactly how much he's followed the elves build over the past 8 months. He even stated himself "Looks like I'm back to casting Elvish Visionarys for the foreseeable future : )" To the average eye, this suggests that he put elves aside and had at least temporarily picked up another deck. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with offering suggestions to the Prince of Pendelhaven, especially given the context. As far as we know, he's a cool guy and should be open to suggestions.

I'm open to suggestions about people offering suggestions, but most of the "suggestion" posts have been more like "you're wrong, do this" posts or "that sucks, why are you playing it" posts.

Chrandersen has historically done just fine without having to poke his head in to this little corner of the internets.

And it's totally OK to switch up decks. I shelved this deck entirely when Miracles was everywhere in my meta. Do you think the Lord of Llanowar would forget the smell of grass? Would the Ambassador of Argoth forget the shade of his elder tree?

@Lord_of_Rivendell - You aren't going to like this, but if Miracles is a huge meta presence for you, you might wanna move into Jund or BUG Control. If you just wanna beat it the times you see it once in awhile, then okay. We can talk about that. But if you will have to face it regularly and need a plan to beat it on a consistent basis, then you actually just want a whole new deck.

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

In those situations you either cast the craterhoof and win the game because you've clearly full blown combod if you've drawn 20 cards, or you pass the turn and win the game next turn.

Regal force is awesome.

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If you draw more than 6 cards with Regal Force, Craterhoof would have been deadly between Nettle, Quirion and Symbiote, just for info.

Passing the turn is a bad idea with S&T, Terminus and Storm in the meta, therefore the focus on Hoof over Regal


@Daniel
Though I disagree that your registered lists are pretty wayne with Elves as long as the pilot is good, I do have a slight problem with the idea that a previous successful player doesn't need to catch up on the meta, new printings or other development due to the plain fact that he WAS a vocal member of the Elves-crowd more than half a year ago.

I have no clue what his latest known state of art with Elves is since he's a member with 20 posts, so that would have been helpful to know. If you suddenly think Regal is a valid option for the meta, then why do you run 2 Hoofs? Because it's better in the current meta! That's all the other users care about too. That's why some run Birchlores over Llanowars, cut C.Rotations or alter the manabase. If we keep our eyes on the success of previous iterations and players we would all still play 16-lands-Emrakul. It's not that todays GROW-strategies in Vintage would exist without Stephen Menendian, but regardless of that, the archtype left Quirion Dryad behind without his initial approval


Edit: Is there a problem if the thread develops while you have, without a doubt, more important things to do?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

If you draw more than 6 cards with Regal Force, Craterhoof would have been deadly between Nettle, Quirion and Symbiote, just for info.

Passing the turn is a bad idea with S&T, Terminus and Storm in the meta, therefore the focus on Hoof over Regal


@Daniel
Though I disagree that your registered lists are pretty wayne with Elves as long as the pilot is good, I do have a slight problem with the idea that a previous successful player doesn't need to catch up on the meta, new printings or other development due to the plain fact that he WAS a vocal member of the Elves-crowd more than half a year ago.

I have no clue what his latest known state of art with Elves is since he's a member with 20 posts, so that would have been helpful to know. If you suddenly think Regal is a valid option for the meta, then why do you run 2 Hoofs? Because it's better in the current meta! That's all the other users care about too. That's why some run Birchlores over Llanowars, cut C.Rotations or alter the manabase. If we keep our eyes on the success of previous iterations and players we would all still play 16-lands-Emrakul. It's not that todays GROW-strategies in Vintage would exist without Stephen Menendian, but regardless of that, the archtype left Quirion Dryad behind without his initial approval


Edit: Is there a problem if the thread develops while you have, without a doubt, more important things to do?

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Okay I'll try to carefully articulate my thoughts for you.

Craterhoof is better than regal force in regards to natural order. You almost always want to get hoof with NO given the option.

Even though crater hoof is better than regal in that situation, regal is still excellent and will usually win the game anyway if hoof is already in your hand and you can't search for it. You get to load your hand up, have the biggest creature on the board, and are in a great position to cast hoof the next turn. Yes it's slightly worse than hoof x2 IN THIS SITUATION, but it's still good enough to win the game ALMOST EVERY TIME ANYWAY.

Regal force is MUCH MUCH MUCH better with green sun's zenith. You usually need to tap all of your elves and use your symbiote/quirion activations to get up to nine mana without the help of double cradle. I've played a lot of games with this deck with double hoof and this situation came up for ,e over and over again and it was very frustrating. I was usually just better off zenithing for a visionary in those situations and grinding them out. It doesn't matter what resources you use to get to regal zenith mana, because regal doesn't care whether your elves are tapped or not, you still get the cards you need. And zenithing for a regal is a GAME WINNING play against a ton of decks, and definitely a powerful line you can shape a gameplan around. The same really can't be said of craterhoof. When you have the mana to zenith for eight AND have enough guys to attack them for lethal afterward, you are probably in a pretty dominating position anyways, and zenithing for either creature is more than enough to put the game away.

Heritage Druid sucks, and it has always sucked. Especially now that we are playing glimpse as a plan C. Same with birchlore ranger. I played a birchlore at the invitational in jersey and used it zero times. They are only really good when comboing with glimpse, and are usually your worst creature when you aren't. They are a great lightning rod for removal though because most people are clueless and think she should be kill on sight. Fyndhorn effects are even better turn 1 plays because they set you up for turn 3 natural orders, which is incredibly important against combo. With 7 creatures that untap other creatures, I always want a Fyndhorn of some kind available to me. I could see playing 3 but I don't know what would be better than the fourth one.

Zenith for Priest of Titania is too of a turn 2 play against combo decks to cut. You want to be a turn 3 deck if you can, and priest does a very good job of setting you up for a kill. It's definitely worth a slot.

Scavenging Ooze is a good card, but I don't think you need the gy removal utility in the open series meta game right now. There isn't much dredge around, almost no Reanimator, and DRS does a great job of handling those decks anyway. The main reason you would want him is for his big body, and I think Ezuri does a better job of being a huge man than ooze does. Especially since double cradle is a thing now.

Just because I haven't been playing the deck in opens doesn't mean I'm not paying attention to the development of the deck. This deck is my baby and I'm constantly working with it. Also the condescension is pretty amusing. At least now I have 21 posts o the source. Hopefully that makes me slightly more legit :D
P.S. <3 danyul

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

I have 21 posts o the source. Hopefully that makes me slightly more legit :D

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Makes you old enough to drink...

I think I will give a shot at your list and see what I find. I am not a Fan of Priest with 4 Cradles tho. If you're going all out to try and get that mana, I can see how GSZ can help, but I just feel like personally, I would rather have a rotation there. Thing is I can see that you're using Preset to push Regal force as a Mana buff. But how do you deal when you do not have that large mana influx? Say you get your mana elves burnt out or GSZ is counted? What do you do then?

Edit: -4 Symbiote? I really really really don't like that. Makes the deck seam a touch neutered.

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

Okay I'll try to carefully articulate my thoughts for you.

Craterhoof is better than regal force in regards to natural order. You almost always want to get hoof with NO given the option.

Even though crater hoof is better than regal in that situation, regal is still excellent and will usually win the game anyway if hoof is already in your hand and you can't search for it.

with 2 Hoofs there's still one left in the deck to NO for in that case ;D

You get to load your hand up, have the biggest creature on the board, and are in a great position to cast hoof the next turn. Yes it's slightly worse than hoof x2 IN THIS SITUATION, but it's still good enough to win the game ALMOST EVERY TIME ANYWAY.

Regal force is MUCH MUCH MUCH better with green sun's zenith. You usually need to tap all of your elves and use your symbiote/quirion activations to get up to nine mana without the help of double cradle. I've played a lot of games with this deck with double hoof and this situation came up for ,e over and over again and it was very frustrating. I was usually just better off zenithing for a visionary in those situations and grinding them out.

if you control enough creatures to generate 9 mana without the help of Cradle, Hoof is still at least 10/10 haste and a 5/5 attacker next turn. How is that worse than durdling with Visionary against decks like RUG Delver, BUG and combo? It's immune to Lightning Bolt and Decay too

It doesn't matter what resources you use to get to regal zenith mana, because regal doesn't care whether your elves are tapped or not, you still get the cards you need. And zenithing for a regal is a GAME WINNING play against a ton of decks, and definitely a powerful line you can shape a gameplan around. The same really can't be said of craterhoof.

it's often a LOSING play once you battle against sweepers, lethal boardstates or combo. I would not underestimate that impact in the current meta and in that regards I trimmed the deck

When you have the mana to zenith for eight AND have enough guys to attack them for lethal afterward, you are probably in a pretty dominating position anyways, and zenithing for either creature is more than enough to put the game away.

Heritage Druid sucks, and it has always sucked. Especially now that we are playing glimpse as a plan C. Same with birchlore ranger. I played a birchlore at the invitational in jersey and used it zero times.

because you won't Tutor for Birchlore as an one-off. It changes a lot once you play 3-4 and see them as mana-Elves in combination with ANY other elf, which doesn't tap for mana usually like Quirion and Nettle (with the later Setting up T2 Glimpse combos with Birchlore). It's ability to accelerate dropping creatures for T2 Cradles is shared with Llanowars but the ability to ignore summoning sickness (T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore ... if you NO or Flumpse combo, Nettle can now attack) while creating Black and White mana in demand for DRS and Sideboard options like Cabal Therapy and Thalia is unique

They are only really good when comboing with glimpse, and are usually your worst creature when you aren't. They are a great lightning rod for removal

isn't it a good thing to have more Virtual Heritages in the deck that catch a Lightning Bolt rather than follow-up symbiotes or Heritages?

though because most people are clueless and think she should be kill on sight. Fyndhorn effects are even better turn 1 plays because they set you up for turn 3 natural orders, which is incredibly important against combo.

Turn 3 is too slow on the draw in almost all cases I fear. Birchlore and the full set of Cradles are an attempt to push the deck and/or it's hate towards turn 2

With 7 creatures that untap other creatures, I always want a Fyndhorn of some kind available to me. I could see playing 3 but I don't know what would be better than the fourth one.

Zenith for Priest of Titania is too of a turn 2 play against combo decks to cut. You want to be a turn 3 deck if you can, and priest does a very good job of setting you up for a kill. It's definitely worth a slot.

Zenith for Priest turn 2 however requires a mana dork T1 and is still cold on the draw as mentioned above. You'll need Therapy/Thorn/Thalia /Teeg against combo turn 2, not Priest

Scavenging Ooze is a good card, but I don't think you need the gy removal utility in the open series meta game right now. There isn't much dredge around, almost no Reanimator, and DRS does a great job of handling those decks anyway. The main reason you would want him is for his big body, and I think Ezuri does a better job of being a huge man than ooze does. Especially since double cradle is a thing now.

DRS is not enough to keep Nimble Mongoose, reanimator, Tarmogoyf and Past in Flames in Check. Ooze can AND comes with a Body + Lifegain. How is double Cradle an argument for Ezuri, while you previously deny it being an argument for Hoofs 9 mana?

Just because I haven't been playing the deck in opens doesn't mean I'm not paying attention to the development of the deck. This deck is my baby and I'm constantly working with it. Also the condescension is pretty amusing. At least now I have 21 posts o the source. Hopefully that makes me slightly more legit :D

this isn't post-count-elitism or discrediting. I just wondered, how involved, active you were with that count. It was a question, not a reproach

P.S. <3 danyul

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

@Daniel
Though I disagree that your registered lists are pretty wayne with Elves as long as the pilot is good, I do have a slight problem with the idea that a previous successful player doesn't need to catch up on the meta, new printings or other development due to the plain fact that he WAS a vocal member of the Elves-crowd more than half a year ago.

I have no clue what his latest known state of art with Elves is since he's a member with 20 posts, so that would have been helpful to know. If you suddenly think Regal is a valid option for the meta, then why do you run 2 Hoofs? Because it's better in the current meta! That's all the other users care about too. That's why some run Birchlores over Llanowars, cut C.Rotations or alter the manabase. If we keep our eyes on the success of previous iterations and players we would all still play 16-lands-Emrakul. It's not that todays GROW-strategies in Vintage would exist without Stephen Menendian, but regardless of that, the archtype left Quirion Dryad behind without his initial approval


Edit: Is there a problem if the thread develops while you have, without a doubt, more important things to do?

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I think GerryT is on this forum too and has like less than 50 posts. Post count means very little here (AND IRL TOO GUYZ). Perhaps you guys didn't recognize the name of Chrandersen, Lord of Leaves. That explains a bit. I gave him plenty of shout-outs in the primer. I thought he was a known dude.

I'm not saying we should just ignore past innovations. There are shades of grey to this. I'm just saying give the man the benefit of the doubt and assume that he knows what he is doing and has made the conscious decision to play X instead of Y. Clearly Chrandersen has caught up to the meta, as seen by his NO-Centric list. He has simply kept certain card choices that you do not necessarily agree with. If he was still running Mirror Entity then I could see an argument to be made for all the criticism. But sometimes I miss Regal Force and Priest. I can see a reason to keep them around, especially when he is thinking about the SCG Open meta, which often skews towards fair decks and grindy games. And nobody is asking for his approval to move forward with the deck. On the contrary, you all seem to be questioning whether or not you approve of lists that aren't copies of your 75.

Lemnear, I recall you mentioning that you have an exceptionally combo-heavy meta. And you have openly said that you are pushing Elves to be as fast as possible. That changes your build and entire philosophy towards the deck. Not everybody is approaching the deck in this manner. You don't seem to take this into account when looking at other people's lists.

And I'm not saying the thread shouldn't develop in my absence. Far from it. You guys discussing things is great and makes me feel less obligated to chime in all the time - not that I ever had anything much to say. I brought up the post-frequency only to point out that it is difficult to keep up with all the action in here. Thus, it is a little unreasonable for you guys to just tell somebody "go read the thread" or "why haven't you been keeping up with this thread" when, realistically, most people cannot do that.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Makes you old enough to drink...

I think I will give a shot at your list and see what I find. I am not a Fan of Priest with 4 Cradles tho. If you're going all out to try and get that mana, I can see how GSZ can help, but I just feel like personally, I would rather have a rotation there. Thing is I can see that you're using Preset to push Regal force as a Mana buff. But how do you deal when you do not have that large mana influx? Say you get your mana elves burnt out or GSZ is counted? What do you do then?

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Getting dudes burned out and GSZ countered is a problem for any build of Elves. It's a little silly to question somebody's card choices by presenting them problems that every elf player must deal with regardless of their build.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Edit: -4 Symbiote? I really really really don't like that. Makes the deck seam a touch neutered.

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What is this in reference to?

Oh shit he did have Symbiotes and I missed them.

I think the question at hand is an important one. Yes the points I made are issues all Elf players have to deal with, but if you're pushing your build to stand on a two cards, asking what happens when those cards become non entities seams like a question worth asking.

Ok Edit:

What I like:
Ezri main.
A push at a "3rd option" of play

What I dislike
Cutting Birch totally
1 basic (I know I am in a minority here)
Cutting Hoof two.

What I think I will look at in my own build:
Adding Ezuri into my 75.
Maybe runing Force again for a bit and seeing what it does, if anything now.

What I do not think I will do:
Cut the Rangers. Pushing turn 2 is just so much simpler with them. Siding in Dual coloured cards is too. I like them too much. I have always liked them.

Chrandersen, while I understand the impact you have had on the deck in the past, and I can see what you are saying now, I do not know if your build is a direction I can see myself taking. At the same time I do understand how Priest would help as a "Tutorable" Cradle. But if you are going to run her, you need the Birthlores. Because dropping her into play off a draw turn 3 makes her near on worthless. At least with other elves like Rangers you can tap her for mana the turn she hits play.

Cards like Ezuri are good pulls, Force may indeed play well, maybe we have pulled too much at only NO and Hoof. I will test this out and see what I find, you may be onto something. But I am worried about the idea of cutting a Win Con for a draw card, the deck has 4 Ancestral Recall already and 7/8 fetches for Visionaries if you need them. I do not feel Force has a place in my 75. But thats just my personal view.

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Originally Posted by danyul

Lemnear, I recall you mentioning that you have an exceptionally combo-heavy meta. And you have openly said that you are pushing Elves to be as fast as possible. That changes your build and entire philosophy towards the deck. Not everybody is approaching the deck in this manner. You don't seem to take this into account when looking at other people's lists.

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Daniel, there's no doubt that the circumstances in certain metas requires the Elves pilot to alter their Maindeck. I wouldn't even blame peeps for running Teeg and Thar over the Hoofs in a Combo-meta, but advocating for Priest in terms of combo is absurd. I quote:

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Zenith for Priest of Titania is too of a turn 2 play against combo decks to cut

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The same goes for Regal Force against Combo and RUG ... I rather cut them off from Ad Nauseam or roll over the Delver with a Hoof than drawing cards and rather have their life threatend than mine. So much for game 1.

Combo doesn't care for your additional Elves and Lands in hand post Regal Force or for Priest off GSZ. They care for Gaddock Teeg off GSZ and if you can Strip them from their life-based-engines or kill them after they durdle with Gitaxian Probe and Thoughtseize



Edit @ Ezuri: That guy eats more mana than Hoof! To play him and overrun are 8 mana.

Edit @ Regal Force: I don't know why this deck should need more draw effects between Glimpse, visionary, symbiote and 8 Tutors to assemble the BFF's

Ezuri has Regen, thats what I like the most. The overrun is cool, but the idea of making Punishing Fire have to target him is nice. Also I can see him as a non dead topdeck. He is not cheap, but he is not dead in the water either.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Ezuri has Regen, thats what I like the most. The overrun is cool, but the idea of making Punishing Fire have to target him is nice. Also I can see him as a non dead topdeck. He is not cheap, but he is not dead in the water either.

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You can play Joarga Warcaller too in that case and boost your doods out of the P.Fire-Grove-range. That option is even cheaper manawise and can't be handled by Karakas ran by Punishing-Miracles/-Maverick.

I'm still able to tackle the issue with speed

The problem with Ezuri against Punishing Fire is that he/she only regenerates other Elves. So the best it can do is grant a Regeneration Shield for a single turn; might be enough sometimes but I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

The problem with Ezuri against Punishing Fire is that he/she only regenerates other Elves. So the best it can do is grant a Regeneration Shield for a single turn; might be enough sometimes but I doubt it.

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Kudos, I missed that. Another point against Ezuri

Danke, Julian