[Deck] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Fourbirr

Wow, that are pretty aggressive ways to deal with S&T. Poor D&T opponent :-)

Actually, I share the same boarding plan against combo at the exception that against TES, S&T or BR Reanimator, I like to keep TSH/Tuktuk for their Petal, Chrome Mox, or LED.

Your removal suit seems quite overloaded and super ready, but I wonder what did you cut to have that much space. Could you edit your post and add your list and sideboard?

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Someone extrapolated most already but here goes

23 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
7 Fetch
3 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands

10 Spells
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Warren Wierding

27 Creatures
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
1 Chieftan
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Flex (sparksmith, rabble, depends on mood)

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Engineered Plague
1 Stingscourger
1 (can never remember)

My big cuts (compared to many lists) are only playing one piledriver, and zero MWM. I like a wider variety of finishers than a pile of drivers, and don't think we need MWM. In most places we want him, pyrokinesis or Weirding is better, and they are both good at times where he's bad as well. I think of the deck like a late midrange deck. Cheap removal+value creatures. MWM is a speed bump/crutch that I don't think we really need.

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

Someone extrapolated most already but here goes

23 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
7 Fetch
3 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands

10 Spells
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Warren Wierding

27 Creatures
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Warchief
1 Chieftan
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Goblin Settler
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Flex (sparksmith, rabble, depends on mood)

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Engineered Plague
1 Stingscourger
1 (can never remember)

My big cuts (compared to many lists) are only playing one piledriver, and zero MWM. I like a wider variety of finishers than a pile of drivers, and don't think we need MWM. In most places we want him, pyrokinesis or Weirding is better, and they are both good at times where he's bad as well. I think of the deck like a late midrange deck. Cheap removal+value creatures. MWM is a speed bump/crutch that I don't think we really need.

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Cutting MWM is an interesting path. He is kinda a speed bump, and it seems possible he's just a crutch leftover from the past. He's the chump blocker of the century, but given how much damage is unblockable in a lot of decks (DRS, Delver, TNN, Strix, etc), he might be not fulfilling his purpose anymore. I'm usually quite happy to see one in my opening hand though, so I'd have to do some testing of lists without him. Have you ever had trouble flashing back therapies without him?

I definitely agree that our removal suite is usually lacking, I think Goblins probably loses 90% of our fair matches when we can't adequately answer our opponents cards profitably, not because our opponent can deal with our stuff. Your list is definitely a step in the right direction. Way back in the day (2005-2007), you find Goblins lists with multiple Swords to Plowshares. Not saying we should be doing that now, but I've begun to question if we're handicapping ourselves by only playing tarfire as our 1 mana removal. Every other fair deck in the format plays at least 5-6 turn 1 answers to creatures, and despite the fact that we get hurt more by DRS than almost any other deck, we don't. I'm curious about a build with 3 tarfires with 3 bolts as well? Ringleader gets hurt, but it'd definitely make our lackeys a lot more consistent, and give us some actual reach in the late game.

I do have some concerns with cutting MWM though, namely that of curve and having goblins on the table. Without MWM, gempalms seem like they won't become effective until turn 4, unless you have multiple lackeys. Also, Prospector seems a little weak without fodder to sac to him, so perhaps something like Chirurgeon would be better here, since it can at least sac itself to protect a t3 warchief from removal.

Also, with 2 high value legends in your list, have you considered Karakas over the 4th port? I could understand that you'd basically always want to port on t2 though, since you have no actual 2 drops other than driver, sparksmith, and weirding. Still, might be worth it for karakas' flexibility in the format.

I really quite like your sideboard. I feel like your flex spot could be best helped by a Blood Moon. Relic also might be the right choice as a nice way to shrink graveyards, something I value pretty highly in the Czech Pile matchup.

I'm not a goblin player but i play only vial creature based decks (merfolk and death and taxes), i have a question:
Why did't you play chalice on the void in the main deck? It protect your creature vs spot remouval cc1 and make possibile winning the combo match up, instead of tarefire you can use gempalm or pyrokinesis as remouval.
I notice that it is just used as a sideboard card but my question is: why not playing it in the maindeck?

I may test 2 Subterranean Scout in place of MWM next week and see what I think. I feel like it along with perhaps a couple of Lightning Bolt could improve the DRS matchups? I'm still pretty new to playing the deck, though, but I'll be sure to share anything I learn. Also, I saw Sensation Gorger mentioned in the first post as a card that has been tested already, but there was no explanation as to why it isn't suggested. Could someone share?

Finally, is there a Legacy Goblins Discord? Seems like every Legacy archetype has its own Discord these days. I don't know anything about running one but I would join it.

EDIT: I feel like right now the deck is missing early impact plays. If we don't Lackey or Vial turn 1, it seems like we have no impact on the game until turn 3. Am I out of line? If MWM is a candidate for removal, that leaves us with even less to do turn 2. What else should we be doing on the first two turns of the game? Discard? Land destruction (Sinkhole? Raze?)? Chalice? I think we have to either slow the game down via disruption or speed ourselves up in the Winstigator style. But I'm not sure currently what slowing the game down for our opponent looks like. What other viable Goblin options do we have turns 1 and 2?

Some people have tried to play Chalice in the maindeck and have had some success with it. The problem with this idea is that as long as Goblins is running 4x Ringleader every non-goblin card weakens the card advantage engine, which helps to just grind through removal instead of countering it.

Another way to phrase this problem is "what about Goblins would make it a better Chalice deck than Moon Stompy or Eldrazi?" (or even the Moggcatcher deck). Especially because Tarfire is one of the most important spells at the moment and it doesn't work alongside Chalice.

Re: Sensation Gorger, I have not actually tested this card, some problems I anticipate are:
- In some situations your opponent can benefit from the draw more than you can (Or your opponent has a Leovold in play or your hand is already stacked or for some other reason you don't want to use the ability)
- Even if your only nongoblin cards are land and vial it still has a close to 50% chance of not doing anything
- Never has any direct impact on the board at all and only provides advantage when you untap with it (which makes it seem very inconsistent and weak compared to something like Krenko)
But it certainly has a 'big' effect, so I guess you could try it yourself and see how it goes.

Re: Subterranean Scout, I don't think paying 1R to get past a DRS is worth it. In DRS matchups you generally have time to setup Gempalm or whatever other removal on it if you can't just Tarfire it immediately, fast Lackey triggers aren't essential for winning.

Lack of good 2 drops is something that has been discussed over the last few pages
- Lackey/Vial/Tarfire can all give you something to do on turn 2
- You can also just use your turn 2 to port the opponent
- I like Sparksmith
- MWM is fine (I like to have at least 1) but it's not good to draw too many of them
- Warren weirding is also a good play on 2 mana (Even if you only kill a 1 drop with it, in legacy that generally means mother of Runes/DRS/Delver of Secrets and you are always happy to trade a card for these)
- I have thought about playing Slavering Nulls in the black splash version but haven't really tested it yet
- Maybe Frogtosser Banneret is okay too, idk
- I don't think Piledriver or Bloodmark mentor are good
- Unban Recruiter

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

Also, with 2 high value legends in your list, have you considered Karakas over the 4th port? I could understand that you'd basically always want to port on t2 though, since you have no actual 2 drops other than driver, sparksmith, and weirding. Still, might be worth it for karakas' flexibility in the format.

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I think dedicating a slot to karakas/pendelhaven is a waste, and would highly recommend against it. They don't produce any beneficial mana to the deck about 95% of the time and seeing as you can't tutor for the land you can never count on having it. Tapping a land down and cutting your opponent off of a color will generally be more useful than the niche use of those lands. I do understand that pendelhaven is useful a significantly higher percentage of the time compared to karakas but, classic goblins isn't the beat down deck and shouldn't be built as such. Yes, it has a beat down mode but, that's not the game plan. If you want a way to protect your legends you have chirurgeon, unless it's a swords deck. We shouldn't really be struggling against swords decks as a goblins players. My point is that they are just dead cards most of the time compared to any other card in the deck.

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Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey

Cutting MWM is an interesting path. He is kinda a speed bump, and it seems possible he's just a crutch leftover from the past. He's the chump blocker of the century, but given how much damage is unblockable in a lot of decks (DRS, Delver, TNN, Strix, etc), he might be not fulfilling his purpose anymore. I'm usually quite happy to see one in my opening hand though, so I'd have to do some testing of lists without him. Have you ever had trouble flashing back therapies without him?

I do have some concerns with cutting MWM though, namely that of curve and having goblins on the table. Without MWM, gempalms seem like they won't become effective until turn 4, unless you have multiple lackeys. Also, Prospector seems a little weak without fodder to sac to him, so perhaps something like Chirurgeon would be better here, since it can at least sac itself to protect a t3 warchief from removal.

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When i first started playing goblins i thought MWM was trash and wondered why people would "waste" slots on him. I ended up trying him out after a while because, i noticed i was having a hard time going wide when i needed to whether it was for attacking or having a board state so that i could gempalm away a brick wall(KoTR, Gurmag, Goyf). I found that the spot he fills is a very important and versatile role for the deck, and he is a very deceptively good creature(in this deck). The synergy(Gempalm, Chieftain, Chirurgeon, Cabal Therapy, going wide) he has with the deck is honestly amazing and provides great survivability in the early turns of a game when facing down an early brick wall. I would never run a list with at least 2 of these in it. He has held the fort for me numerous times alongside just a chieftain against brick walls which allowed me to survive long enough to win games. He might not look it but, i think he is very important to the deck and at worst can always be pitched to pyro. I just wish i could get original art signed foils....

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Originally Posted by PrinceCortez

When i first started playing goblins i thought MWM was trash and wondered why people would "waste" slots on him. I ended up trying him out after a while because, i noticed i was having a hard time going wide when i needed to whether it was for attacking or having a board state so that i could gempalm away a brick wall(KoTR, Gurmag, Goyf). I found that the spot he fills is a very important and versatile role for the deck, and he is a very deceptively good creature(in this deck). The synergy(Gempalm, Chieftain, Chirurgeon, Cabal Therapy, going wide) he has with the deck is honestly amazing and provides great survivability in the early turns of a game when facing down an early brick wall. I would never run a list with at least 2 of these in it. He has held the fort for me numerous times alongside just a chieftain against brick walls which allowed me to survive long enough to win games. He might not look it but, i think he is very important to the deck and at worst can always be pitched to pyro. I just wish i could get original art signed foils....

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I'm not saying that MWM is bad, but rather that he's not great in the match ups that we lose. MWM is best against decks with fair fatties like Goyf, which are the same decks that Warren Weirding are good against, but Weirding has the advantage of killing fliers, DRS, and True Name Nemesis. In black decks, I'd rather have Weirding 90% of the time.

On a totally different note, I think that we need to start looking at DRS as a good thing for us, rather than bad. DRS pushes a "fair" midrange decks to the forefront, which are the #1 deck for us to prey on. 4c Control is a great matchup for goblins, as are the slower delver variants. DRS also splash hates on graveyard decks that have traditionally been very bad match ups for us. As much as I think DRS is a busted magic card, if I played against only decks running 4 DRS I would be happy as the goblins player.

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

On a totally different note, I think that we need to start looking at DRS as a good thing for us, rather than bad. DRS pushes a "fair" midrange decks to the forefront, which are the #1 deck for us to prey on. 4c Control is a great matchup for goblins, as are the slower delver variants. DRS also splash hates on graveyard decks that have traditionally been very bad match ups for us. As much as I think DRS is a busted magic card, if I played against only decks running 4 DRS I would be happy as the goblins player.

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Yup, totally agree.

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

I'm not saying that MWM is bad, but rather that he's not great in the match ups that we lose. MWM is best against decks with fair fatties like Goyf, which are the same decks that Warren Weirding are good against, but Weirding has the advantage of killing fliers, DRS, and True Name Nemesis. In black decks, I'd rather have Weirding 90% of the time.

On a totally different note, I think that we need to start looking at DRS as a good thing for us, rather than bad. DRS pushes a "fair" midrange decks to the forefront, which are the #1 deck for us to prey on. 4c Control is a great matchup for goblins, as are the slower delver variants. DRS also splash hates on graveyard decks that have traditionally been very bad match ups for us. As much as I think DRS is a busted magic card, if I played against only decks running 4 DRS I would be happy as the goblins player.

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qft (in theory)
Vs things like 4C you can still lose to things like Hymn into Liliana the Last Hope but in general I would agree that you don't need to play any specific cards to 'beat' DRS
Tarfire is good vs DRS because it allows you to maintain tempo while sniping off your opponent's mana dork, not because you absolutely need to clear the way for your 1/1

Re: MWM
Goblins only does one thing, there are so many cards that are bad in the matchups that we lose, I don't find that an entirely convincing argument.
Reasons to like MWM
- You can plant it in front of a Goyf or a Knight or a Gurmag and block it for 3 turns
- Is effectively a 2 power 2-drop thats difficult to profitably interact with
- Puts 2 Goblins into play to enable Sparksmith / Gempalm
- More Goblin attackers to boost Rabbelmaster/Piledriver/Warchief
- More goblin tokens makes Chirurgeon/Prospector better
- Clunking up the board with things that die makes Sharpshooter better
- Bigger Krenko activation

Saying that "the best way to deal with a fatty is to kill it and therefore Weirding > Marshal" is generally correct, but sometimes the opponent will have Strix/Shardless or whatever to protect their big attacker, you can't play a Weirding off of Vial/Cavern, and sometimes you just want to attack for 2. (THAT SAID I only play 1 because I find it's too low-impact when drawn in multiples).

The thing I want to ask you is how you find Settler,
Normally I don't see this card in non-Instigator lists, it seems a bit low-impact for a 4 drop

Edit:
The whole "oh actually Gempalm is a 2 drop because I never actually cast it and therefore my average cmc is only 1.4568465948576, is this acceptable?" is really dumb
How often do you actually activate Gempalm on turn 2? How often do you actually get punished for having Gempalm and not some other thing (on turn 2 or at any other point in the game)? How often does the CA from Gempalm win you the game? Play some matches and figure it out... (This applies to every card in every constructed deck in MTG history, not just Gempalm specifically)

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Edit:
The whole "oh actually Gempalm is a 2 drop because I never actually cast it and therefore my average cmc is only 1.4568465948576, is this acceptable?" is really dumb

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That part was rude and unnecessary. More respectful posts would be highly appreciated in the future.

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How often do you actually activate Gempalm on turn 2? How often do you actually get punished for having Gempalm and not some other thing (on turn 2 or at any other point in the game)?

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How often is not the question here and who said that he must be cycled on T2. These two aspects are not related. Anyway, sometimes he helps Lackey to connect on T2 when removing a 1 toughness defender (elves, mom, unflipped delver, YP, anything in the way). If it's to land a SGC, I'm more than happy to counter-proof cycle a Gempalm AND draw a card.

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Play some matches and figure it out...

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I'll try, thanks for the tip.

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(This applies to every card in every constructed deck in MTG history, not just Gempalm specifically)

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Could you point some sources elsewhere on the web to emphasize this assumption? Always greedy to learn how to play better Magic goblins.

Every goblin card that you are sustaining is generally a correct way to play the deck. "This is better than that" is not the answer to the question "what should I play?". If you're going to fight against tarmos MWM will be better, but if you're facing nemesis weirding will dominate the field.. playing both won't resolve the problem either: since legacy is a really wide open format you should focus more on your strategy, not on fixing every possible situation, because it will bring unconsistency to the deck in the long run.. I think that each one of us should just adjust the deck according to his local meta/style of playing the deck, without trasforming it in a filler.. (:

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Originally Posted by Marlock96

Every goblin card that you are sustaining is generally a correct way to play the deck. "This is better than that" is not the answer to the question "what should I play?". If you're going to fight against tarmos MWM will be better, but if you're facing nemesis weirding will dominate the field.. playing both won't resolve the problem either: since legacy is a really wide open format you should focus more on your strategy, not on fixing every possible situation, because it will bring unconsistency to the deck in the long run.. I think that each one of us should just adjust the deck according to his local meta/style of playing the deck, without trasforming it in a filler.. (:

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Best thing I’ve read all day. Tune your deck to what you like and fix the sideboard to what you like. Test the absolute hell out of it

While we're having a controversial discussion on card choices, I thought I would throw out two more questions.

First, has anyone tested multiple Skirk Prospector? I always considered it a mid to late game sac outlet, but I realized just the other might that it also enables turn 2 Matron, lords, and Blood Moon. Is it worth running multiple copies to enable those types of plays?

Second, I like the 6 discard spells in the sideboard, but I wonder how good Cabal Therapy is? Without a Probe effect, your first attempt is blind, and while we often have a creature for the flashback cost, generally wouldn't most of the situations where we'd like to sac for value be during combat or in response to removal? Is the life loss from Thoughtseize too much to consider a 4 Duress/2 Thoughtseize split, or is Cabal Therapy better here than I'm seeing?

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Originally Posted by Anubis647

While we're having a controversial discussion on card choices, I thought I would throw out two more questions.

First, has anyone tested multiple Skirk Prospector? I always considered it a mid to late game sac outlet, but I realized just the other might that it also enables turn 2 Matron, lords, and Blood Moon. Is it worth running multiple copies to enable those types of plays?

Second, I like the 6 discard spells in the sideboard, but I wonder how good Cabal Therapy is? Without a Probe effect, your first attempt is blind, and while we often have a creature for the flashback cost, generally wouldn't most of the situations where we'd like to sac for value be during combat or in response to removal? Is the life loss from Thoughtseize too much to consider a 4 Duress/2 Thoughtseize split, or is Cabal Therapy better here than I'm seeing?

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I’ve always been a huge fan of Cabal Therapy. It’s great against decks that search for anything. It helps against any blade deck because you know which equipment to call. You can play it against delver whatever’s and call what you read them to have. Then play MWM and pick the best option. Sometimes turn one thoughtseize followed by that same line on turn 3 just picks their hands apart. But that’s all just hypothetical, if you have this then you do this BS. I just really enjoy the card. Thoughtseize makes it great

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Originally Posted by Anubis647

I may test 2 Subterranean Scout in place of MWM next week and see what I think. I feel like it along with perhaps a couple of Lightning Bolt could improve the DRS matchups? I'm still pretty new to playing the deck, though, but I'll be sure to share anything I learn. Also, I saw Sensation Gorger mentioned in the first post as a card that has been tested already, but there was no explanation as to why it isn't suggested. Could someone share?

Finally, is there a Legacy Goblins Discord? Seems like every Legacy archetype has its own Discord these days. I don't know anything about running one but I would join it.

EDIT: I feel like right now the deck is missing early impact plays. If we don't Lackey or Vial turn 1, it seems like we have no impact on the game until turn 3. Am I out of line? If MWM is a candidate for removal, that leaves us with even less to do turn 2. What else should we be doing on the first two turns of the game? Discard? Land destruction (Sinkhole? Raze?)? Chalice? I think we have to either slow the game down via disruption or speed ourselves up in the Winstigator style. But I'm not sure currently what slowing the game down for our opponent looks like. What other viable Goblin options do we have turns 1 and 2?

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You're generally correct about our lack of impactful 2 drops. Rishadan Port and Piledriver have historically been enough, they're weaker nowadays. After thinking about it more, I don't think I'll opt to remove MWM from my deck because its various ancillary effects are too important in my experience. Gempalming a creature early for 2 damage is pretty difficult without him. What we do really want are 2 drop creatures that force the opponent to spend a removal spell, or else risk us generating an advantage of some kind. There are 3 candidates for this creature as I see it; Sparksmith, Grenzo Dungeon Warden, and Grenzo Havoc Raiser. Sparksmith is extremely powerful, but can be a bit of a liability lategame. The Grenzos are similarly powerful, but can be a bit tough to cast, and suffer from being legendary. The only other 2 drop I think that is worthy of consideration is Frogtosser Banneret. The B cost is annoying though.

After doing a little bit of deckbuilding, I think maindecking pyrokinesis is probably better than adding bolts, the sheer efficiency of it is insane. Even if you 2-2, you've done it at 0 mana investment, something that's hugely important against the tempo decks of the format. Pyro also has the side benefits of getting around chalice, something we have to be wary of if we stuff our deck full of tarfires.

I don't know of any Discord chat, I've never used Discord anyway. I'd probably join if there was one though, I'm always brewing up Goblins.


@Fourbirr I think kombatkiwi's point about gempalm being a 2 drop is that for most games' curve purposes, its not something you can use profitably on t2, despite it costing 2 mana in 95% of cases. By turn 2, it's very rare to have enough goblins on board to actually gempalm anything other than an x/1. I think the dispute comes from a disagreement over what's being discussed. You're talking about avg mana cost, strictly speaking, while kombatkiwi is more concerned with curving out, having proactive or impactfull plays on each turn.

There does seem to be a desire to make a "best version" of the deck, which due to the variety of smaller metas that people actually play in, is impossible to discover. Since I'm not playing at a local store right now, just testing with friends or online, I most try to build against a theoretical meta roughly equivalent to the MTGO meta. It'd probably be beneficial to the forum for people to specify what meta they are playing against when talking about cards and builds, because opinions will vary widely based on this. Some cards are terrible in some metas, yet fantastic in others. I typically don't like a whole ton of piledrivers in my lists, but if someone's meta is full of merfolk and S&S, then it's absolutely correct to play 4.

@Anubis I haven't tried multiple prospectors personally, but I know it has been done before. The card is sneakily very powerful, and maybe we should play more. I play 1-1 of Chirurgeon and Prospector right now, both are really good at different things (except they both stop jitte). If you wanted to go down that path, it'd probably be kinda close to the old Goblin Bidding deck, with multiple sharpshooters and such. I'd be very interested to see testing results with it!

With regards to your therapy question; The reason I favor therapy over Thoughtseize/Duress is because unlike those other discard spells, Therapy is actually card advantage in most cases. If you hit on the first name even 50% of the time, then it's fantastic. If you ever hit multiples, you're in a huge lead (therapy double LED from Storm? You just bought 3 turns). A hate card against combo that keeps you ahead on cards is important, especially if you are siding out ringleaders. The flashback isn't really much of a cost because many of our creatures don't matter once they've actually resolved. This is especially the case with MWM and Matron. That 1/1 isn't gonna matter in the combo matchup, but taking an extra card out of their hand probably will. Therapy also has some benefits against control decks. I've won my fair share of games against U-based control decks by therapying out snapcasters and TNN. Therapy pulls a lot of weight against the Ux stoneblade decks, since therapying the known equipment from stoneforge, then flashing back for their actual threat (jace or TNN) can be backbreaking, all for 1 mana. It takes some experience to get good at therapy, but I think it's significantly better than the other discard spells. I would only ever run the other discard spells as a way to make therapy better. T1 thoughtseize, T2 therapy, 1 drop + flashback is something I've done once before and it utterly obliterated my opponent's chances of coming back.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

qft (in theory)
The whole "oh actually Gempalm is a 2 drop because I never actually cast it and therefore my average cmc is only 1.4568465948576, is this acceptable?" is really dumb
How often do you actually activate Gempalm on turn 2? How often do you actually get punished for having Gempalm and not some other thing (on turn 2 or at any other point in the game)? How often does the CA from Gempalm win you the game? Play some matches and figure it out... (This applies to every card in every constructed deck in MTG history, not just Gempalm specifically)

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Gempalm on T2 is used to:
Kill X/1s if you had a T1 Goblin
Cycle for higher chances of getting a land

And that's pretty much all I Can think of right now, there may be others. In my opinion the "curve" of your cards should be based on what turn they have significant impact. By this idea, Gempalm will have significant impact T3 - T5. For others trying to value Gempalm in their list, also look at how relevant the uncounterable removal aspect is. Back in the day goblins could fade almost all counter magic because we didn't have to run Tarfires. This blanked half of the cards in most decks Game 1. I personally hate running tarfires but I admit we are almost forced to.

I'd like to come up with a better system to value our cards based on their impact on the board than just their CMC when deciding on my curve. Right now I can't think of a good algorithm but I'll keep thinking on it.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

- Unban Recruiter

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it sounds too good to be true :mad:

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Originally Posted by Quackers

I'd like to come up with a better system to value our cards based on their impact on the board than just their CMC when deciding on my curve. Right now I can't think of a good algorithm but I'll keep thinking on it.

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The point I was trying to make (and yes I agree it was rude) is that obviously a low average cmc is not a useful target metric for deckbuilding (otherwise just cut Siege Gang for Memnite) and there is no system any person can come up with that can accurately quantify every relevant aspect of different cards.

Do you really think you can try to come up with something like the following that actually makes sense:

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Siege Gang
Costs 5: Expensive = -2
Costs 5: Doesn't die to push = +0.3
Shock: 3*Percentage of metagame share of decks with at least 10 creatures of toughness 2 or less = +1.8
Swarm: 1*Number of piledrivers in decklist = +0
Karakas Proof: + 0.8

Kiki Jiki
Costs 5: Expensive = -2
Costs 5: Doesn't die to push = +0.3
Haste: = +1
Free ability = +3
Karakas Magnet: -0.5
Wombocombo: If playing Crafter and sac outlet = +1.5

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At the end of the day it's just a scheme to assign values to cards based on how good somebody thinks they are, so why do you need numbers for this? People should be able to describe the reasons for why they think certain cards (or combinations of cards) are good/bad. Perfect example: Therapy vs Thoughtseize argument a few posts back. If you aren't convinced by what people are saying (or even if you are) then you should try it out yourself and make your own decision.

IMO:
- Wild Cantor into a lord is not a good move. It's 'nice' that sac outlets kind of beat jitte but this is only true if you're already very far ahead on the board and shouldn't be your main reason for playing them, I'm definitely not interested in playing multiple copies.
- I am still testing RR Grenzo but I don't like the manacost or the fact that it's legendary

Managed a 4-1 on MODO just now. It was streamed and will be viewable until twitch deletes it at twitch.tv/steve2112rush


Rd 1 - ANT
Rd 2 - Grixis Delver (Therapy IIRC)
Rd 3 - ANT
Rd 4 - Turbo Depths (who needs stingscourger?)
Rd 5 - Grixis Delver (therapy)

Rabblemaster was tight, but it should be noted that I didn't have to endure playing against Czech Pile or any of the blue-ape combo decks so a fairly fortuitous run in the matchup lottery. Fuck TNN, DRS and Gitaxian Probe though.

https://i.imgur.com/fG0dxhZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RXHhihd.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

a fairly fortuitous run in the matchup lottery

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Rd 1 - ANT
Rd 3 - ANT
Rd 4 - Turbo Depths

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wat

Will watch replay when I get home