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You pretty much nailed it. You know how sometimes Force on a turn 1 Putrid Imp can mean multiple Time Walks for your opponent? Stifle on a fetchland is almost as bad ("almost" because you have one more card in hand and thus one turn closer to the auto-discard phase). One point of extra damage from Watery Grave is fairly a-OK, more so since you can sometimes play it tapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Using U/b lands instead of gold lands just because the MD and SB doesn't have off colors seems like a mistake to me, because you're telegraphing to the opponent that you don't have X in your SB, so he can abuse you with Y. Unless you are playing Wonder, I would keep the gold lands, because there really is no draw back to using them any way.
What, do you expect them to leave their Crypts/Leyline in the SB just because you will bring in Grudges/Rays?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
You're suggesting running lands that disappear on their own or cause a point of damage on every tap just to bluff the existence of a card in your sideboard that isn't going to change your opponent's sideboarding plan / method of play in the slightest?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Crafty. I'mma go load up on Volcanic Islands in Goblins to bluff Stifle.
The damage/disappearance isn't relevant in a deck that is going to tap its lands less than 3 times tho'. If the opportunity cost is insignificant, and you aren't using Wonder, why let them know you can't SB in Wax/Wayne, Emerald Charm, Tireless Tribe, Swords to Plowshares, Orim's Chant or whatever else you decide to stick in your SB?
The damage argument is kind of BS to, because you are going to use the shock lands any way. I just don't see the U/b lands offering anything meaningful enough to cut the gold lands even when I'm not using off color cards.
The rainbow lands are needed because Ray of Revelation is pretty much a must-have SB card, and also like BW said it isnt much of a drawback anyways.
I think serenity can be might be better sideboard option than ray since it can hit both tormods and leyline. What do you guys think?
I just realized it also hits affinity, enchantress, and stax decks
Can you cast serenity from your graveyard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Kokusho
Ray of Revelation is needed in some Metas and in some it's near useless. It depends first of all on the fact, whether a lot of goblin-hate is present in your meta. For example cards like Engineered Plauge, Humility(to a lesser degree as goblin hate, but really strong against Ichorid in case they aren't dead or you haven't therapied it away by the time they hit WW2), Ghostly Prison, Solitary confinement, Elephant Grass, Propaganda, Moat....
There are countless occasions in which Ray of Revelation is the best card you could have in your board. It's an enourmous advantage for a sideboard card that you don't even have to draw it in order to use it.
So in general I would definitively advise you to run the rainbow lands just for Ray if your meta has a lot of:
Landstill
Mono Blue Control
Enchantress
Staxx
If those decks are not present in your meta, then don't run the rainbow lands. The whole argument of bluffing to have a card in your board won't change your opponents sideboard plan at all in most cases.
In general I'd say: If your meta requires enchantment hate run Ray, if not, run an UB- manabase.
Ray can't be cast from the graveyard if there's already a Leyline in play, so it's kind of a moot point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
Not if you're trying to handle Moat, Planar Void, Prison, Humility, Elephant Grass, Propaganda, ... well anything except the Leyline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Dont be too much sarcastic.. :smile: With opposing Leyline in play You must actually draw not dredge both of them.. and in this case Ray loses its best advantage over Serenity (namely flashback), while Serenitys main advantage (efficiency) becomes more of a concern. It destroys any number of Crypts, Moats, EE and Leylines in play...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
The real problem with Serenity (just in my eyes, maybe) is different - it has to survive to your next upkeep (Pernicious Deed anyone?), You have to survive to your next upkeep too and last but not least, it destroys your Leylines, Needles and (not so often) LEDs.
In sasa-batoras example I think that if you put this down turn two it is very unlikely for an opponent to have 5 mana available at that point so it will survive the turn and remove the offending graveyard hate card from play. I also beleive that people will board out any enchantment removal they have making vindicate or deed the only realistic answer they can have in game2.
Besides I believe if the game goes to the point that an opponent has both deed and graveyard hate on the table then it is pretty much game over unless the opponent horribly topdecks.
I also think that destroying your own needle is not much of a drawback since the thing you were pithing (such as tormods, or deed) will likely be destroyed as well. Granted there are exceptions (withered wretch) but then again the card is not perfect.
Finally I prefer not to discuss card by card comparisons since examples can be easily provided by both sides. Serenity for example can deal with double leyline openings or double crypt with a chalice for 1. I think it is better do discuss cards independently by their own merits unless the two cards in question fulfill the naearly identical roles which I believe is not true in this case.
Serenity is interesting. And very cool against semi-problematic Stax and highly problematic Enchantress.
I can't imagine Serenity having extreme trouble surviving until your next upkeep given that you'd be playing it on an average of turn 2. If they drop a Deed, they won't generally have the mana to use it then.
Also, besides Deed or similar sweepy-type things (EE), you aren't going to have to face very much that could stop Serenity. People are going to board out all artifact/enchantment removal against Ichorid, as well as random things like Stifle and Spell Snare. I also can't imagine a high compulsion to use Counterbalance against Ichorid, unless it's left in strictly to help protect other hate pieces.
Serenity is 2 mana, and considering the most common hate card the deck will see in mulitiples is Tormod's Crypt, and you have to stop Tormod's Crypt pre-emtively, you're probably better off running Pithing Needle.
I think Chain of Vapor, Wax/Wayne and Pithing Needle get the job done, if there are other non anti-graveyard hate cards out there, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation can pick up the spare.
Not that Stifle does a whole heck of a lot against Serenity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Delays it for a turn. This could be relevant somehow, I'm sure. I'll let you know if I figure out how.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
How on earth do you have to stop Tormod's Crypt pre-emptively?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Anyone with any sense is going to drop the Crypts, or at least one of them, at the first available opportunity, because holding back Crypts exposes you to someone dredging 20+ cards, then knocking them out of your hand with Cabal Therapy.
Once Crypt is in play, You just don't empty your hand and roll half your deck until after your Serenity goes off. The neat part about Serenity is that it goes off during your upkeep, meaning you sweep all the hate and then start the rest of your turn, free of hate, with your land untapped. At this point, since your opponent probably doesn't have counters (Otherwise your Serenity wouldn't have resolved), you should be able to roll a large portion of your deck, get the rest of their hate out with Cabal Therapy, and be in a decent position to cruise to a win as long as they don't make a ridiculous topdeck.
EDIT: Alternately, you don't necessarily have to forego Pithing Needle for Serenity. You might, but it's probably not a requirement depending on your metagame.
You use Needle to force the opponent to activate Crypt, or you use Needle before they play Crypt to prevent them from activating it and all of the other Crypts the opponent top decks. Not all decks are going to mulligan into Crypt, Threshold is going to dig for it, and you can't afford to just sit around and wait to cast Serenity. That's why cards like Pithing Needle and Seal of Removal are really effective, they deal with the problem pre-emptively and let you go about your business.
Saying "You have to stop Tormod's Crypt pre-emptively" and "You have to stop Tormod's Crypt pre-emptively against Threshold" aren't the same thing at all. The example you give is true enough. Pithing Needle is better than Serenity against Threshold. However, in a deck like Dragon Stompy or Goblins, where digging for said Crypt doesn't exist and you're usually going to face it in an opening hand if at all, Serenity is almost as effectively capable of dealing with Tormod's Crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Fortunately, as I mentioned earlier, you aren't required to run one over the other in your board.
Here's two other points to consider.
1. Countless other decks besides Threshold run Tormod's Crypt. Dragon Stompy runs it, lots of Goblins run it. Anything not packing black that packs graveyard hate sometimes runs it, with rare exception (Such as Enchantress w/ Ground Seal, which Serenity wrecks anyway.) Most of these decks don't have ways to dig for Crypt and don't have much time to do so. Faerie Stompy or any other Trinket Mage deck might be the other main one besides Threshold.
2. Serenity affords you the luxury of not having to guess what hate piece your opponent is boarding in against you. Except for Extirpate and Yixlid Jailer, Serenity handles them all. It kills Leyline, it kills Crypt, it kills Engineered Plague, it kills Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/Moat, it kills Humility, it kills Seismic Assault (annoying card, that), it kills Planar Void in case someone still runs that, it kills Engineered Explosives at 0, it kills random Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, it kills the random incomprehensible crap that shows up periodically in Legacy like, I dunno, Silent Arbiter. It kills virtually everything.
Yes, Pithing Needle is better at handling Tormod's Crypt, and there's probably no way I'd play without it due to how versatile and simple to cast it is. But you aren't -required- to handle Tormod's Crypt with Needle in most cases. The broad-spectrum antibiotic of removal, Serenity, can handle it pretty often.
Serenity is definitely a flexible card that answers all the yard hate that Ichorid faces.
I think the only drawback is that Ichorid combo is based on discarding the hand as soon as possible. Having a serenity in hand perhaps imply that we breakthrough at 1U instead of the usual U. However, I don't think this is hardly a problem since one would rather pay 1 extra mana to keep a card that answers all the yard hate against Ichorid.
I personally think Serenity is the best choice by far. Just as Taco said. It activates during upkeep, allowing you to do a ton, return Ichorids, dredge for the win, flashback Cabal Therapy for disruption after you blow Serenity up. Let's say he has crypt(s) in play, then he will be forced to sacrifice it at an untimely event, while you keep the crucial discard spells for the win.
I'm currently thinking about it. I might want to run Serum Powder in a new build. For consistency of turn 1 wins, and for consistency of mulliganing into Serenity/Ray/Grudges during sideboard game. Ichorid always wins if there's no yard hate. It simply has one of the fastest, undisruptionable, and efficient combo that Legacy has. As long as one pilots the anti-graveyard match perfectly, Ichorid would be hard to beat.
I am also thinking and testing the deck out, that it runs smooth on 1-2 mana. In scenarios where we don't start the combo with a Lion's Eye, we may wish we had 2 mana in play to activate coliseum, or to flash back deep analysis. I have been tinkering with Chrome Mox again, just as Extended runs them. It makes the deck a whole lot consistent, but may involve reshaping certain slots for better consistency. 2 mana is important for DA flashback in the absence of LED, and activating Coliseum at threshold, or breakthrough at 1 to keep a crucial spell/coliseum. Just wondering and this, as usual, is open to criticism and discussion!